Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[DanTrain]

Here's the architects drawing for a new canapy attached to the station building/Indian restaurant:

 

[Killingworth]

The stream underbridge visible on that photo is still there and obviously designed to accommodate a set of left-handed crossovers at the nearer end of the platforms. That photo must be 1920s or earlier (going by the marking of the back of the distant signal in the foreground) so those crossovers must have gone even earlier, possibly to allow platform lengthening.

The Hope Valley line was opened in 1893 and joined the original Chesterfield - Dronfield - Sheffield tracks through Dore & Totley station at the south end of the existing two platforms. Two further tracks were added about 1903-4 to the east side of the originals creating fast and slow lines all the way into Sheffield Midland through Beauchief, Millhouses and Heeley. Here's a picture after the Hope Valley line was opened and before the new tracks were added. There doesn't seem to have been any connection at the south end, apart from anything that may have been used during construction work.



The bridge across the River Sheaf still exists and was due to be replaced as part of the HVCS. It was resurveyed and found to be sound, thus saving a 7 figure sum from the budget!

Before anyone else brings it up, a feasibility study has been made into restoring all 4 platforms. It is feasible, at considerable expense, but would add too much delay to fast services, prove unpopular with local residents due to parking, and is finally scuppered by Sheffield's potential HS2 diversion using the same tracks

 

[Killingworth]

They were working on it on Monday, it appeared to mostly be paintpots, but I didn't get a close look.

Paint pots only. Job now done.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I assume this refers to the morning peak when 6 trains arrive in the space of an hour

Ha ha ha! Checking the timetable, I think there's no more than 4 trains in the space of any hour. But point taken, there is a much better peak service than I'd assumed.

Actually, looking at the timetable closely, I'm a little puzzled: There's obviously been a lot of effort put into running a good peak hour service into Sheffield in the morning (4 trains arriving at Sheffield between 08:00 and 09:00) but no enhancement at all to the hourly service coming back in the evening peak. Seems a bit unbalanced. By contrast, Manchester - which I'd have assumed from Dore would be only a secondary peak flow - is much better provided for with extra services at Dore both to Manchester in the morning and from Manchester in the evening.

 

[Killingworth]

How does an at-best hourly train being late make a difference to the number of people waiting for it?

Ah hah, that's where a big misconception occurs. Although Dore & Totley is a Northern managed station, and they provide most of the trains, most of the revenue is earned by TPE and EMT from their services serving Manchester bound commuters and air travellers.

Today has been a better day. It's school holidays and knock on delays this morning weren't severe. They get worse as the day wears on. See RTT for the period up to 10.00 today; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DOR/2018/08/16/0600-0830?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

On a single platform station congestion and confusion can become very similar to Piccadilly 13 and 14 with TPE trains in opposite directions due about the same time!



The 7.14 is normally 6 carriages and only 4 fit into the current platform. Booked seats can be in any carriage, first class could be in 1st and 6th carriages. Even with 6 carriages it is very well filled. If it's late the following Northern and EMT services will be close behind. If it turns up with 3 cars there will be much unhappiness! If SDO isn't working it may sail through without stopping. That's how over 100 may be waiting on one small platform, with very little protection.

There is an hourly evening service from Manchester by both Northern and TPE, plus some EMT stops. The service out of Sheffield is hourly with some gaps of 2 hours, and one of 2 hours 33 minutes! No wonder 60% of commuters are going the 40 miles to Manchester rather than the 4 miles into Sheffield.

Unfortunately Northern don't even collect all the revenue they should. The TVM is often out of service (it was this morning). Sheffield is an ungated station and few conductors manage to check all have paid in the short journey - in either direction.

PS The new canopy on the old station building may be in place before Christmas. Final plans being completed, and it will happen. Not a lot, but better than at present

 

[Killingworth]

Ha ha ha! Checking the timetable, I think there's no more than 4 trains in the space of any hour. But point taken, there is a much better peak service than I'd assumed.

Actually, looking at the timetable closely, I'm a little puzzled: There's obviously been a lot of effort put into running a good peak hour service into Sheffield in the morning (4 trains arriving at Sheffield between 08:00 and 09:00) but no enhancement at all to the hourly service coming back in the evening peak. Seems a bit unbalanced. By contrast, Manchester - which I'd have assumed from Dore would be only a secondary peak flow - is much better provided for with extra services at Dore both to Manchester in the morning and from Manchester in the evening.

It's worse than that into Sheffield in a morning. 6.50, 7.57, 8.03, 8.24, 8.28, 9.58. 4 in half an hour is great, but it's 67 minutes before them and 90 minutes after them! The new 7.57 is the most reliable train of the day with 15 minutes allowed from Grindleford against an achievable 7, making it a good waiting room as it stands in the platform for at least 5 minutes on most days.

And yes, it's VERY unbalanced in the evenings. 18.21, 19.21, 20.21, 22.54, 23.34. It takes me 70 minutes to walk from Sheffield. The 97/98 bus takes half an hour, but it's 10-15 minutes walk to the stop in Sheffield. The 218 is better, but doesn't run in the evenings. In that big gap there's a Northern train that doesn't stop until Grindleford (and a TPE service). Change there and coming back over is quicker than waiting for the 22.54. Most will get a taxi or are picked up at Sheffield.

The service into Sheffield was far better in 1938, although 80 years ago nobody would have considered commuting to Manchester!

 

[edwin_m]

The Hope Valley line was opened in 1893 and joined the original Chesterfield - Dronfield - Sheffield tracks through Dore & Totley station at the south end of the existing two platforms. Two further tracks were added about 1903-4 to the east side of the originals creating fast and slow lines all the way into Sheffield Midland through Beauchief, Millhouses and Heeley. Here's a picture after the Hope Valley line was opened and before the new tracks were added. There doesn't seem to have been any connection at the south end, apart from anything that may have been used during construction work.

Somnds like a construction thing then. The "missing crossovers" in my previous post would have been original tracks to and from Chesterfield. The new trackbed to the east, including the new bridge over the Sheaf, would have been built alongside them but they became redundant when the new tracks opened.

Actually, looking at the timetable closely, I'm a little puzzled: There's obviously been a lot of effort put into running a good peak hour service into Sheffield in the morning (4 trains arriving at Sheffield between 08:00 and 09:00) but no enhancement at all to the hourly service coming back in the evening peak. Seems a bit unbalanced. By contrast, Manchester - which I'd have assumed from Dore would be only a secondary peak flow - is much better provided for with extra services at Dore both to Manchester in the morning and from Manchester in the evening.

I'd guess with a fairly infrequent train service most people would use the bus into Sheffield, and the railway probably isn't too interested in the short-distance revenue that it probably won't even manage to collect unless the conductor can get through before Sheffield. As someone else suggested the real money is likely to be commuters to Manchester from a fairly affluent surrounding area, who don't want to go into the centre and back out again.

 

[B&I]

It's worse than that into Sheffield in a morning. 6.50, 7.57, 8.03, 8.24, 8.28, 9.58. 4 in half an hour is great, but it's 67 minutes before them and 90 minutes after them! The new 7.57 is the most reliable train of the day with 15 minutes allowed from Grindleford against an achievable 7, making it a good waiting room as it stands in the platform for at least 5 minutes on most days.

And yes, it's VERY unbalanced in the evenings. 18.21, 19.21, 20.21, 22.54, 23.34. It takes me 70 minutes to walk from Sheffield. The 97/98 bus takes half an hour, but it's 10-15 minutes walk to the stop in Sheffield. The 218 is better, but doesn't run in the evenings. In that big gap there's a Northern train that doesn't stop until Grindleford (and a TPE service). Change there and coming back over is quicker than waiting for the 22.54. Most will get a taxi or are picked up at Sheffield.

The service into Sheffield was far better in 1938, although 80 years ago nobody would have considered commuting to Manchester!View attachment 51163

The service patterns to Dore are absolutely idiotic. It serves a large and fairly affluent area and should be taking a lot of travellers into Sheffield, given how far away the nearest tram line is. The fact that there is a better service to Manchester at certain times is a reflection of the idiotic lack of joined-up thinking re transport in the north. Why is all available thought, energy and investment going into links between cities, and virtually none into the local transport which is of more use to more people ?

I would suggest making Dore (or maybe Chesterfield) the terminus for a regular cross-Sheffield service, perhaps via Meadowhall to Rotherham, perhaps using tram-trains and a spur just before Midland, round the front of the station and into the city centre to join the existing tramway (or joining the Halfway / Herdings Park line somehow to the south of the station). If there isn't the capacity for that, there ought to be

 

[Killingworth]

The service patterns to Dore are absolutely idiotic.
I would suggest making Dore the terminus of a regular cross-Sheffield service, perhaps via Meadowhall to Rotherham, perhaps using tram-trains. If there isn't the capacity for that, there ought to be

Local users, and current non-users, would agree. The station car park has about 120 spaces and as many again would be used within 6 months if the space was provided.

TPE provide a service across to Meadowhall and Doncaster in the evenings, and from there in the early mornings - designed for Manchester commuters so of minimal use to shoppers or workers at Meadowhall.

If there was a turn back facility at or beyond Dore & Totley it might be possible to run one of the stopping services from Doncaster, Leeds, Huddersfield, Lincoln, or even Hull down the Sheaf valley. There might even be room to add a third platform if anyone had the responsibility to make such a decision. There might be space to get 4-6 carriages in and help ease pressure on platforms at the north end of Sheffield station.

Tram/train remains untried, but I'd be surprised if it could beat a well planned heavy rail solution. All that would need would be a little more track, a platform, some signalling some points, a little bit of cash, then programming in the trains.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

When you hit long gaps (like the 2h 33m here) then there is a crying need for some sort of selective easement: in this case, doubling back at Grindleford for Dore - which would offer Sheffield 2114 ->Dore 2155: not something you would choose, but valuable insurance in case plans change. Once gaps get longer than an hour, you have to be really sure of your plans (and the reliability of the sparse service) before you will consider short or medium-distance journeys by train. Easements could help reduce the perceived risk - but of course open the door to revenue loss.

Is there any provision for easements to be limited to particular trains or to particular times of day? Or where the gap between arrivals is more than (say) an hour? Or where there is a minimum time saving of say 45 minutes?

 

[B&I]

Local users, and current non-users, would agree. The station car park has about 120 spaces and as many again would be used within 6 months if the space was provided.

TPE provide a service across to Meadowhall and Doncaster in the evenings, and from there in the early mornings - designed for Manchester commuters so of minimal use to shoppers or workers at Meadowhall.

If there was a turn back facility at or beyond Dore & Totley it might be possible to run one of the stopping services from Doncaster, Leeds, Huddersfield, Lincoln, or even Hull down the Sheaf valley. There might even be room to add a third platform if anyone had the responsibility to make such a decision. There might be space to get 4-6 carriages in and help ease pressure on platforms at the north end of Sheffield station.

Tram/train remains untried, but I'd be surprised if it could beat a well planned heavy rail solution. All that would need would be a little more track, a platform, some signalling some points, a little bit of cash, then programming in the trains.

In general, I'd agree about keeping heavy rail services on hrwvy rail alignments. If tram trains are such an obviously brilliant idea, how do you.explain the black hole the Rotherham pilot has become ?

In Sheffield's case, however, where an extensive tramway exists, I did wonder whether tram-train might offer advantages, particularly by avoiding any more services having to use the tracks at Midland.

If there was going to be a cross-Sheffield service on the main line, I'd suggest 4 tracking as much as possible and (re-)opening stations between Midland and Dore

 

[Killingworth]

Hourly Northern Hope Valley stopping services are extended out of the half hourly Piccadilly-New Mills service. As such they are subordinated to that, and then freight paths in the Hope Valley. The purpose of the HVCS is to reduce delays caused by the freight services.

Current Northern services are operated by Manchester based crews and rolling stock. Simple solutions to the big gap is to stop the train that currently skips through, or the TPE that passes in that gap. Hopefully the December timetable change may help with that glaring error.

 

[Killingworth]

In general, I'd agree about keeping heavy rail services on hrwvy rail alignments. If tram trains are such an obviously brilliant idea, how do you.explain the black hole the Rotherham pilot has become ?

In Sheffield's case, however, where an extensive tramway exists, I did wonder whether tram-train might offer advantages, particularly by avoiding any more services having to use the tracks at Midland.

If there was going to be a cross-Sheffield service on the main line, I'd suggest 4 tracking as much as possible and (re-)opening stations between Midland and Dore

4 tracking looks simple, the track bed is there - apart from at Millhouses where some bright spark sold it off to build a Tesco superstore, and some other business units! And there'd be a lot of railway paraphernalia to move.

 

[DanTrain]

The service patterns to Dore are absolutely idiotic. It serves a large and fairly affluent area and should be taking a lot of travellers into Sheffield, given how far away the nearest tram line is. The fact that there is a better service to Manchester at certain times is a reflection of the idiotic lack of joined-up thinking re transport in the north. Why is all available thought, energy and investment going into links between cities, and virtually none into the local transport which is of more use to more people ?

The service is so odd that it has 27 trains to Sheffield (from Manchester) in a day and yet only 18 from Sheffield (to Manchester). That's 50% more trains going one way than the other!

I would suggest making Dore (or maybe Chesterfield) the terminus for a regular cross-Sheffield service, perhaps via Meadowhall to Rotherham, perhaps using tram-trains and a spur just before Midland, round the front of the station and into the city centre to join the existing tramway (or joining the Halfway / Herdings Park line somehow to the south of the station). If there isn't the capacity for that, there ought to be

4 tracking looks simple, the track bed is there - apart from at Millhouses where some bright spark sold it off to build a Tesco superstore, and some other business units! And there'd be a lot of railway paraphernalia to move.

This has been thrown around for a while as an idea. The main problem looks to be the 4-tracking at Tesco/Sainsburie, where there isn't really room, and through Millhouses Park, where local opposition sank the last scheme. Having looked at the Sheffield station throat, it looks to me that a comprehensive re-laying of track, along with the loss of the train wash, should allow 4 tracks, 1/2 of which will need a very steep chord onto the tram tracks above, but it looks possible.

The other cost of the tram-train would be to re-open the old stations along that line at Heeley, Millhouses (& Ecclesall) and Beauchief, but this would lead to much better connectivity along the Sheaf corridoor. You might be able to run a Dore - Meadowhall tram service, which would avoid excess stress on the central tram section whilst serving the same objective as a train route .

 

[Altfish]

The service is so odd that it has 27 trains to Sheffield (from Manchester) in a day and yet only 18 from Sheffield (to Manchester). That's 50% more trains going one way than the other!

I suspect that is to do with there being only one platform, so it is relatively easy to stop Sheffield bound trains; but not as easy stopping Manchester bound ones.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suspect that is to do with there being only one platform, so it is relatively easy to stop Sheffield bound trains; but not as easy stopping Manchester bound ones.

Well, since all trains pass through the said platform, I'm not sure how that logic works.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This has been thrown around for a while as an idea. The main problem looks to be the 4-tracking at Tesco/Sainsburie, where there isn't really room, and through Millhouses Park, where local opposition sank the last scheme. Having looked at the Sheffield station throat, it looks to me that a comprehensive re-laying of track, along with the loss of the train wash, should allow 4 tracks, 1/2 of which will need a very steep chord the tram tracks above, but it looks possible.

I wonder whether 4-tracking will become inevitable at some point in the future. If I've counted correctly, there are just under 7tph (excluding freight) on that line each way. That will go up to 10tph with the Hope Valley improvements and 2tph from HS2. I would also imagine that it's inevitable that (a) There will quickly be demand for more frequent HS2 trains, and (b) HS2 will spur demand for more frequent rail links into Sheffield. At that point, we'll be hitting the limits of what 2 tracks between Dore and Sheffield can support, and NR will have to look at 4-tracking.

The other cost of the tram-train would be to re-open the old stations along that line at Heeley, Millhouses (& Ecclesall) and Beauchief, but this would lead to much better connectivity along the Sheaf corridoor. You might be able to run a Dore - Meadowhall tram service, which would avoid excess stress on the central tram section whilst serving the same objective as a train route .

Why would you need a tram-train for that? Couldn't you just run a conventional rail service from Dore to Meadowhall or Rotherham, stopping at the new stations you suggest (Incidentally I think opening those is an excellent idea). That would provide much faster journey times between Sheffield and Meadowhall than the existing tram route, so would arguably be more useful.

 

[DanTrain]

I wonder whether 4-tracking will become inevitable at some point in the future. If I've counted correctly, there are just under 7tph (excluding freight) on that line each way. That will go up to 10tph with the Hope Valley improvements and 2tph from HS2. I would also imagine that it's inevitable that (a) There will quickly be demand for more frequent HS2 trains, and (b) HS2 will spur demand for more frequent rail links into Sheffield. At that point, we'll be hitting the limits of what 2 tracks between Dore and Sheffield can support, and NR will have to look at 4-tracking.



Why would you need a tram-train for that? Couldn't you just run a conventional rail service from Dore to Meadowhall or Rotherham, stopping at the new stations you suggest (Incidentally I think opening those is an excellent idea). That would provide much faster journey times between Sheffield and Meadowhall than the existing tram route, so would arguably be more useful.

There are actually 9tph currently on that line (2 XC, 2 EMT London, 2 EMT Liv-Nor (in and out), 1 TPE, 1 Northern HV, 1 Northern Leeds - Notts), going up to 12 with HV capacity and HS2, which presents even more of a problem!

I see you point about running heavy rail to Meadowhall, I imagine with 4-tracking that would work actually as an extension of one of the Sheffield terminators (the Leeds or Huddersfield slows). This might even take some pressure off the terminating platforms at Sheffield too, although whether it might need a 3rd platform to turn it at Dore I don't know.

 

[DanTrain]

Here’s some stats I’ve just found about usage from Dore & Totley:


59% of morning passengers are heading towards Manchester, with 75% of passengers using TPE and EMT rather than the Northern stopper too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There are actually 9tph currently on that line (2 XC, 2 EMT London, 2 EMT Liv-Nor (in and out), 1 TPE, 1 Northern HV, 1 Northern Leeds - Notts), going up to 12 with HV capacity and HS2, which presents even more of a problem!

I see you point about running heavy rail to Meadowhall, I imagine with 4-tracking that would work actually as an extension of one of the Sheffield terminators (the Leeds or Huddersfield slows). This might even take some pressure off the terminating platforms at Sheffield too, although whether it might need a 3rd platform to turn it at Dore I don't know.

Yes you're right about the numbers of trains. I'd forgotten the XC ones when I mentally counted them up! :blush: Good point about extending some of the local trains that currently terminate at Sheffield from the North. Doing that would not only free up space at Sheffield but also provide a proper cross-city metro (if frequent enough). I would think for metro frequencies (say 3tph) you would want either a 3rd platform at Dore or a turnback siding beyond Dore, because otherwise with (evantually) 4tph running through Dore from Manchester it'd be hard to get a robust timetable.

In terms of building something like that and 4-tracking: Looking at Google Maps, I think you could just about thread between the Tesco and Sainsburies at Millhouses with some slewing of the tracks over, but you'd have to lose a couple of buildings just south of Tesco. A possibly bigger issue in terms of expense would be that you'd probably want some grade separation just North of Dore to avoid the otherwise inevitable conflicting moves there (though I suspect that may well eventually be required even without a metro to Dore).

 

[Killingworth]

The service patterns to Dore are absolutely idiotic. It serves a large and fairly affluent area and should be taking a lot of travellers into Sheffield, given how far away the nearest tram line is.

The train takes 7 minutes and is a comfortable ride, even if standing. Many choose to do that, including me, even when seats are available. The bus will take half an hour and is more expensive. Although it's a rougher ride with all the stops, those stops take more people nearer their ultimate destinations at both ends of their journey than a train possibly can. The train should be a better feeder for longer distance services at Sheffield. Many will use some form of road transport to get back to Dore & Totley in an evening even if they took the train into town in the morning.

However, the purpose of the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme isn't primarily about services at Dore & Totley station. The station is on a 1 kilometre section of single track between Sheffield and Manchester and the bottleneck needs correcting with a second track. Inevitably that means having to build a new platform.

The other bottlenecks are the slow moving freight trains carrying stone or cement, and empty return workings. The empties travel faster than the laden trains, but are long and take up vital track space.

Here are the paths reserved for freight workings today along the Hope Valley at Dore West Junction; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DOR/2018/08/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt Most aren't used.

However, a laden stone train heading away from Earles Sidings may have to be held on the tracks before Dore West Junction until it's path is clear round the tight curve through Dore Tunnel and across the mainline at Dore South Junction before entering Bradway Tunnel en route to Chesterfield and places beyond. That's two lines it has to cross, Manchester westbound and Sheffield north bound. If the timings are wrong it may mean holding trains on either line to let it cross. If it's not allowed to cross it will hold up eastbound Hope Valley passenger services so it needs to be released from Earles with fine timings.

At present Earles is signalled from Manchester. Dore West is from York. When the scheme is complete York will control from Earles Sidings eastwards. That should help to co-ordinate matters better.

A loop is to be constructed to the west of Dore West Junction to allow a freight service to stand there off the main running tracks while it waits to pick up a clear path in either direction. For an empty service returning light towards Earles that should be fine. The tightness of the curve between Dore West and Dore South junctions, plus the uphill grade towards Bradway Tunnel, will make a hard pull for a locomotive hauling a full load that may have to stop in the loop and on that curve.

The loop at Bamford will allow a laden freight to wait a little further back so it can get a better run either through Dore & Totley station and Sheffield, or via the Dore curve to go south. (It could also be used to allow an eastbound stopping train to be overtaken by a fast service, a facility which will not be available for westbound services.)

Resolving the freight conflicts is key to improving services along the Hope Valley. The long term aspiration is a passenger time of 30 minutes between Sheffield and Manchester. 49 minutes is currently the best timetabled service, but many are currently running at least 10 minutes late.

Many Sheffield bound commuters from the west side board at Stockport where there's a large NCP car park - and it's expensive! Many Manchester bound commuters are driving to Dore & Totley, thereby getting a train 6 or 7 minutes later than at Sheffield and where parking's free at the SYPTE owned car park (full by 7.30 in school term time).

Rail travel and operations function despite all these little difficulties thanks to lots of people in the front line doing their utmost to make the best of things.

 

[HSTEd]

In general, I'd agree about keeping heavy rail services on hrwvy rail alignments. If tram trains are such an obviously brilliant idea, how do you.explain the black hole the Rotherham pilot has become ?

Well, although my view is contested by some on this forum, it is possibly because Network Rail has continued its recent tradition of spending money as if it has an unlimited supply by gold plating everything about what should have been a simple and cheap scheme.

 

[Killingworth]

Yes you're right about the numbers of trains. I'd forgotten the XC ones when I mentally counted them up! :blush: Good point about extending some of the local trains that currently terminate at Sheffield from the North. Doing that would not only free up space at Sheffield but also provide a proper cross-city metro (if frequent enough). I would think for metro frequencies (say 3tph) you would want either a 3rd platform at Dore or a turnback siding beyond Dore, because otherwise with (evantually) 4tph running through Dore from Manchester it'd be hard to get a robust timetable.

In terms of building something like that and 4-tracking: Looking at Google Maps, I think you could just about thread between the Tesco and Sainsburies at Millhouses with some slewing of the tracks over, but you'd have to lose a couple of buildings just south of Tesco. A possibly bigger issue in terms of expense would be that you'd probably want some grade separation just North of Dore to avoid the otherwise inevitable conflicting moves there (though I suspect that may well eventually be required even without a metro to Dore).

These are issues largely for the future and a digression. Getting the HVCS built is the current priority, although making provision for a turnback facility in the Dore area would be prudent. That could be a third platform, or an extension of the Dore loop northwards from Dore West Junction to Twentywell Lane. The former may be workable as there was a wide gap between the old fast and slow tracks. The latter may not provide enough length.

Building new stations and rebuilding the removed two tracks for 4 miles down the Sheaf valley would be at enormous cost now the space has been used for other things. Skewing between Sainsbury's and Tesco is not as easy as it may seem. I've added a picture from March 2016 taken from the Archer Road overbridge. There is a new building on the east side that doesn't appear on Google and, even if it wasn't there, you wouldn't want to slew the current straight track too far on that side. Tesco is probably too near the current tracks to get even an extra single track in safely without demolitions. Tesco would have to go, then a park and ride station would be possible with new store incorporated above the tracks.



Nice idea, but dream on. Separate thread needed for that project as 4 tracking without stations will be called for when HS2 comes down the valley. It may happen if that budget can be tapped!

 

[yorksrob]

They moved a Morrisons to expand the diesel depot at Penzance, so rebuilding a Tesco isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Killingworth]

They moved a Morrisons to expand the diesel depot at Penzance, so rebuilding a Tesco isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

And by the time they get round to detailed planning Tesco's existing store will be due for replacement anyway; they're not expected to last 100 years!

 

[yorksrob]

And by the time they @get round to detailed planning Tesco's existing store will be due for replacement anyway; they're not expected to last 100 years!

Good point, well made

 

[70014IronDuke]

Ah hah, that's where a big misconception occurs. Although Dore & Totley is a Northern managed station, and they provide most of the trains, most of the revenue is earned by TPE and EMT from their services serving Manchester bound commuters and air travellers.
...
There is an hourly evening service from Manchester by both Northern and TPE, plus some EMT stops. The service out of Sheffield is hourly with some gaps of 2 hours, and one of 2 hours 33 minutes! No wonder 60% of commuters are going the 40 miles to Manchester rather than the 4 miles into Sheffield.

Thank you for this and other informative posts on a very interesting thread (for me, at least - last time I was on this route it was four-track into Sheffield).
To your last point - yes, there are gaps during the day, which must be annoying and reduce traffic numbers somewhat, but there is a train ex-Sheffield every hour 16.14 to 20.14, which surely covers the bulk of time for returning commuters?

Unfortunately Northern don't even collect all the revenue they should. The TVM is often out of service (it was this morning). Sheffield is an ungated station and few conductors manage to check all have paid in the short journey - in either direction.

Well, this opens up a whole can of worms, of course. (In fact, it makes me think of starting another thread.) And it implies the ORR figure of 165,000 entrance-exits is a significant under-count. Obviously stopping more evening trains out of Sheffield has significant pathing implications over the single line section - but one has to wonder if the odd stop in the EM and TP trains out of Sheffield at peak times at places like Grindleford, Hathersage and Edale for a cost of 2 min extra running time would at least relieve the numbers on the NT stoppers and thereby enable the conductors to collect a few more fares.

It's also interesting to realise very, very few of the TPE/EMT trains stop at Chinley - so how do folk from the Hope Valley stations get to Stockport if that's their destiination? Into Piccadily and out again - is that a valid route?

 

[DanTrain]

Well, this opens up a whole can of worms, of course. (In fact, it makes me think of starting another thread.) And it implies the ORR figure of 165,000 entrance-exits is a significant under-count. Obviously stopping more evening trains out of Sheffield has significant pathing implications over the single line section - but one has to wonder if the odd stop in the EM and TP trains out of Sheffield at peak times at places like Grindleford, Hathersage and Edale for a cost of 2 min extra running time would at least relieve the numbers on the NT stoppers and thereby enable the conductors to collect a few more fares.

Before rushing into stopping more trains, it might be wise to think about the reasons for this. For one, many of the HV stations don't have ticket machines, and coming back towards Sheffield from there it can actually be quite hard to buy a ticket even if you try, so some more ticket machines would help. Adding to this, Northern (despite the threatening notices on the trains) are quite happy to sell tickets on the trains, so most people will just chance it and pay if the guard reaches them (which they generally don't). Proper ticketing facilities coupled with a proper penalty fare scheme would go a long way to fixing this problem.

It's also interesting to realise very, very few of the TPE/EMT trains stop at Chinley - so how do folk from the Hope Valley stations get to Stockport if that's their destiination? Into Piccadily and out again - is that a valid route?

Whilst I don't imagine that it's a huge passenger flow, one would have to go via either Sheffield or Manchester Piccadilly most of the time. I personally hope that the 3rd Sheffield to Manchester fast would call at Sheffield and Chinley, perhaps even with peak time calls at Hope or Hathersage, but I may be dreaming here!

 

[Killingworth]

It's also interesting to realise very, very few of the TPE/EMT trains stop at Chinley - so how do folk from the Hope Valley stations get to Stockport if that's their destiination? Into Piccadily and out again - is that a valid route?

Basically, Hope Valley line users from Grindleford to Chinley don't go direct to Stockport unless they catch the 4 car East Midlands trains. Since May no TPE trains stop at Chinley. Theoretically it should take a 6 car train but it may not be able to take a 6 car 185 without using SDO?

In the last year there were times eastbound services didn't stop there, although booked to do so. At least once that wasn't made clear until after leaving Stockport and the train proceeded to Sheffield without stopping at Chinley or at 4 car max. Dore & Totley. That was explained as a SDO issue. Those inconvenienced for Dore & Totley were able to get a bus, taxi or were picked up in Sheffield to get home. Those for Chinley had a very long ride back on a Northern stopping service. The fallout from that and similar incidents seems to have included an assurance that SDO would be working at D&T, but the Chinley stops have been cut out. (Dore & Totley users asked for a simple temporary extention of their single platform, but nobody volunteered to pay for it before Network Rail will do the job as part of the HVCS.)

That may also be explained by overcrowding, even on the 6 coach trains that used to stop. They can be standing room only to and from Dore. The Chinley & Buxworth Transport Group are fighting very hard to get the TPE stops reinstated. http://www.chinleyca.org.uk/groups/chinley-buxworth-transport-group/

The Hope Valley Rail Users Group are campaigning for an hourly stop of a fast service at Hope once 3 fasts an hour become reality when the scheme is completed. It doesn't feature on their website, but it might also stop at Chinley and Stockport; http://hopevalleyrailway.org.uk/

 

[Chester1]

It's also interesting to realise very, very few of the TPE/EMT trains stop at Chinley - so how do folk from the Hope Valley stations get to Stockport if that's their destiination? Into Piccadily and out again - is that a valid route?

They don't go to Stockport, at least not by train. It is an argument for replacing the stopper with a semi fast via New Mills and a semi fast extension of a Hazel Grove service (using a 769?) once the passing loops are built.