My idea for a Lancashire version of the "Betuweroute" freight line in the Netherlands

[ccityplanner12]

This proposal involves using the Lancs & Yorks line from Manchester to Liverpool to create a freight corridor between the two cities. It is an alternative to proposals to use the Canada branch, which would consume capacity on the Chat Moss line.

From Pendleton, the former fast lines would be reinstated in full as far as Amberswood Common, from where a single-track spur would provide a connection to the WCML at Wigan North Western. It would then take the Wigan avoiding line to Pemberton.
At the Liverpool end, a loop would be created: a single freight track would utilise the disused eastern bores of the Kirkdale tunnels, & descend to join the Canada branch, which it would share with passenger trains as far as Bootle Junction, entering the docks on the Alexandra branch & leaving on the Fazakerley & North Mersey branch.

 

[driver_m]

A what?

Mods. Can we please have a rule on here that just like a link has to have an explanation underneath.. That if you're going to use a foreign expression that it is translated into English please. If this is just a spelling mistake, then my apologies.

(It's a pet hate of mine how German rail expressions are used on here a lot, I have to explain what acronyms I use with the job on here such as ADD being auto drop device for a pantograph, so these should be done too)
Besides. Use the low level lines instead under Bank Quay. It's already there to Latchford.

 

[6Gman]

This proposal involves using the Lancs & Yorks line from Manchester to Liverpool to create a freight corridor between the two cities. It is an alternative to proposals to use the Canada branch, which would consume capacity on the Chat Moss line.

From Pendleton, the former fast lines would be reinstated in full as far as Amberswood Common, from where a single-track spur would provide a connection to the WCML at Wigan North Western. It would then take the Wigan avoiding line to Pemberton.
At the Liverpool end, a loop would be created: a single freight track would utilise the disused eastern bores of the Kirkdale tunnels, & descend to join the Canada branch, which it would share with passenger trains as far as Bootle Junction, entering the docks on the Alexandra branch & leaving on the Fazakerley & North Mersey branch.

Whose proposal?
I appreciate it's an alternative to Chat Moss but for what traffic?

And what is a "betuweroute?

 

[43096]

And what is a "betuweroute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betuweroute

"Betuweroute" is the name of a railway line that is freight only - it is not the name of a type of railway or even "concept". The OP is misguided in using it in this context, in my view.

 

[ccityplanner12]

The Betuweroute (the inspiration for this) is a freight-only rail corridor in the Netherlands.
The Arpley line has numerous problems:

• How do you cross Edge Hill?
• Getting anywhere useful other than Peak Dale involves either crossing the Piccadilly line at Stockport, or long & complex paths such as reversing at Chapel Central to then run back into Manchester via Reddish North.

Port of Liverpool freight traffic is already projected to be enough to consider electrifying the Canada branch. The Ince spur would be used by Manchester-Preston expresses (basically those that don't have to serve Bolton), to avoid having to use the Chat Moss route as far as Parkside.
On a larger scale, freight trains would more easily be able to get to Yorkshire on the Calderdale line (to my knowledge the only route which doesn't have problems fitting locals & expresses between each other).

 

[Maurice3000]

The Betuweroute is mighty impressive, if anyone is ever in the area it's certainly worth a look.

That said, the reason it is so impressive is because it is purpose built as a grade separated dedicated freight route and built from scratch. No old alignments, crossings or clearances to take into account. With a loading gauge of 4.10m by 6.15m for all tunnels and bridges it is prepared for double stacked containers (only the OHLE isn't prepared for it yet as it's a reservation for the future). It is fully electrified, designed for heavy freight trains reaching 120 KM/h and signalled using ETCS Level 2.

Accomplishing something similar would require finding a completely new alignment or entirely ripping out and rebuilding an existing alignment in an area that is already very built up. And it won't come cheap.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Betuweroute makes some sense because it provides a dedicated route for freight from the industrial heart of central Europe straight to the continent's largest port complex, bypassing a very busy passenger railway network. There simply isn't enough freight in GB for any meaningful length of brand-new or heavily reconstructed line to open. The demand for extra capacity is really about a few more freight paths a day, or being able to have both extra freight and extra passenger services.

 

[randyrippley]

So who is doing the proposing? Is this a serious proposal from the industry or just another hare-brained pie-in-the sky idea?

 

[driver_m]

Crayon time. We can't even get Oxford --Cambridge right, no 2nd Brighton Main Line, no reopening of Colne-Skipton, so a freight only route is never going to pass muster, as container boxes don't have a vote. Sorry, I'm just very cynical on all the proposals put on this forum.

 

[B&I]

The economics may be against rail freight at present, but if that was ever to change, something like this would be necessary. Anyone arguing that extra freight should be stuffed through Chat Moss or Weaver Junction-Edge Hill simply doesn't know enough about railway capacity round Liverpool (the latter suggestion doesn't even have a direct link to the Canada Dock branch).

Personally, I'd suggest re-building the North Mersey branch the whole way into the docks, though this raises the problem that some prannet decided to build over the formation at Aintree and Seaforth, somehow failing to notice that north Liverpool contained about 50 million acres of derelict land to put houses on

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As per https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Resident/Parking-Roads-Travel/Westwood-Park/Westwood-Park.aspx much of the former Wigan avoiding line is going to disappear under a new road. This scheme has been approved and designed with work due to start this autumn. I'm afraid the OP's idea has already missed the boat!

In any case a comparison with the Betuwe route is totally inappropriate. That route is to expedite rail traffic in/out of Rotterdam/Europort, a vast complex serving a hinterland that stretches as far as Northern Italy. Thanks to deep water berths on Humberside Liverpool's effective hinterland struggles to get beyond Yorkshire to the east though it can provide some benefit for flows towards Scotland. This country is sufficiently small that road transport will always be cost-effective for the vast majority of freight flows though rail can expect to make small gains in particular flows as road-haulage comes up against increasingly onerous environmental regulations not to mention a chronic shortage (apparently) of drivers. And even if freight by road was significantly curtailed such that additional rail capacity became necessary any route heading over the Pennines really should seek to completely avoid passing through both Manchester and Leeds.

 

[apk55]

My own thoughts for a freight line from Manchester to Liverpool would be to use the banks of the Manchester ship canal. Use the existing Warrington Bank Quay low level line to Latchford then it should not be difficult to build a line to the banks of the ship canal and follow (reopen) the Ship canal Railway to near Glazebrook. There build a link onto the CLC. Also Reopen the Line to Timperley so that freight to Yorkshire could use this link

 

[Ianno87]

1) How would you get freights to Pendleton in the first place? Stuff all chance of getting enough freight paths across Salford Crescent

2) 4-tracking the Atherton Route is pretty pointless to interweave some freights with a few passenger services each hour - just need full Multiple Aspect Signalling to reduce the headway, probably with a loop in each direction at a strategic point. 4 tracking through Hindley would be necessary

3) Good luck getting freights to mingle well with an 8tph each way Merseyrail service through Kirkdale

 

[Maurice3000]

The Betuweroute makes some sense because it provides a dedicated route for freight from the industrial heart of central Europe straight to the continent's largest port complex, bypassing a very busy passenger railway network. There simply isn't enough freight in GB for any meaningful length of brand-new or heavily reconstructed line to open. The demand for extra capacity is really about a few more freight paths a day, or being able to have both extra freight and extra passenger services.

Agreed. I just had a look at some of the figures for the Betuweroute and that makes you see why investing so much in a dedicated route made sense there but wouldn't make sense here.

The Betuweroute is currently designed to handle 110 freight trains per day but considering they are already at about 90(!) per day they are planning to increase the maximum to 160 trains a day. They are also planning to increase the maximum train length from 700 metres to 1000 metres. Both are presumably signalling changes. There is also work underway to triple track some stretches around the Dutch / German border.

As Britain is an island whose ports have relatively little hinterland I don't see the UK ever reaching those kinds of freight demands. The only thing I could see take off to some extent, and requiring huge investment, is a dedicated route from the channel tunnel via the West Midlands to the North West with freight forwarding to Ireland. And Brexit might throw a spanner in the works there as the Irish are planning to reroute a lot of goods around Britain to avoid UK customs delays.

 

[furnessvale]

the Irish are planning to reroute a lot of goods around Britain to avoid UK customs delays.

Given that Irish transit traffic is 100% by road, contributes nothing to the UK economy but tears up our road system with HGVs renown for lawbreaking in many different ways, what's not to like!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

My own thoughts for a freight line from Manchester to Liverpool would be to use the banks of the Manchester ship canal.

Or, you know, just send the freight along the Ship Canal itself.

 

[6Gman]

I'll try again.

What is the purpose of this route?

What will run along it?

 

[AndrewE]

A what?

Mods. Can we please have a rule on here that just like a link has to have an explanation underneath.. That if you're going to use a foreign expression that it is translated into English please. If this is just a spelling mistake, then my apologies.

(It's a pet hate of mine how German rail expressions are used on here a lot, I have to explain what acronyms I use with the job on here such as ADD being auto drop device for a pantograph, so these should be done too)
Besides. Use the low level lines instead under Bank Quay. It's already there to Latchford.

Are you upset by "Taktfahrplan" too? It has been used quite a lot over the last couple of decades. I don't know a proper translation, but Fahrplan is German for timetable - which people here ought to know - and to me "takt" says tactical, Wikipedia says "An integrated schedule is a clock-face schedule." Not difficult. and two clicks away on Wikipedia - including the translation.

 

[jonty14]

Crayon time. We can't even get Oxford --Cambridge right, no 2nd Brighton Main Line, no reopening of Colne-Skipton, so a freight only route is never going to pass muster, as container boxes don't have a vote. Sorry, I'm just very cynical on all the proposals put on this forum.

Don't read them then

 

[MarkyT]

Are you upset by "Taktfahrplan" too? It has been used quite a lot over the last couple of decades. I don't know a proper translation, but Fahrplan is German for timetable - which people here ought to know - and to me "takt" says tactical, Wikipedia says "An integrated schedule is a clock-face schedule." Not difficult. and two clicks away on Wikipedia - including the translation.

I believe Taktfahrplan came from Takt time, an industrial production rate metric, the definition and derivation of which, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takt_time , is given as follows:

Takt time is the average time between the start of production of one unit and the start of production of the next unit, when these production starts are set to match the rate of customer demand. For example, if a customer wants 10 units per week, then, given a 40-hour work week and steady flow through the production line, the average time between production starts should be 4 hours (actually less than that in order to account for things like machine downtime and scheduled paid employee breaks), yielding 10 units produced per week. Note, a common misconception is that takt time is related to the time it takes to actually make the product. In fact, takt time simply reflects the rate of production needed to match the demand. In the previous example, whether it takes 4 minutes or 4 years to produce the product, the takt time is based on customer demand. If a process or a production line are unable to produce at takt time, either demand leveling, additional resources, or process re-engineering is needed to correct the issue.
...
Etymology
Takt time is a borrowing of the Japanese word takutotaimu (タクトタイム), which in turn was borrowed from the German word Taktzeit, meaning clock interval. The word was likely introduced to Japan by German engineers in the 1930s.

Takt in German means a musical time signature or a musical bar.

In summary I'd say Betuweroute is not a descriptive name as it's derived from a place names the particular railway passes through and says nothing about its function, so unless one is familiar with the route, it is meaningless on its own. Taktfahrplan by contrast is fully descriptive once translated.

 

[driver_m]

Are you upset by "Taktfahrplan" too? It has been used quite a lot over the last couple of decades. I don't know a proper translation, but Fahrplan is German for timetable - which people here ought to know - and to me "takt" says tactical, Wikipedia says "An integrated schedule is a clock-face schedule." Not difficult. and two clicks away on Wikipedia - including the translation.

You've bit. It obviously upset you that I mentioned it. I suppose it's people's way of trying to look all superior and 'more knowledgeable than you'. It never gets used in the industry, in the rail media. Just on here by certain members .

 

[AndrewE]

You've bit. It obviously upset you that I mentioned it. I suppose it's people's way of trying to look all superior and 'more knowledgeable than you'. It never gets used in the industry, in the rail media. Just on here by certain members .

You don't answer the question though. Is Taktfahrplan acceptable? or is it a "foreign" word that we should not expect rail enthusiasts to understand? Would baguette or eclair be acceptable?
I'm afraid that only reflects the level of general knowledge of the people you are talking about. Maybe it's used by people who a) have been abroad and used public transport and b) are therefore aware of the normal European standards of public transport provision - and who hope that by mentioning it we might remind rail travellers of what they have experienced when on holiday - and even inspire them to hope that something similar might one day be available here. The knowledge is only one Google or Wikipedia click away!
There used to be Mutual Improvement classes on the railway, and something called the Workers Educational Association. The web could replace them, if people could be ar**ed to look up something they hadn't seen before...
I'm sick of living in the poor/dirty man of Europe, and aspire to live in a clean healthy country - or that my grandchildren might, anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

My own thoughts for a freight line from Manchester to Liverpool would be to use the banks of the Manchester ship canal. Use the existing Warrington Bank Quay low level line to Latchford then it should not be difficult to build a line to the banks of the ship canal and follow (reopen) the Ship canal Railway to near Glazebrook. There build a link onto the CLC. Also Reopen the Line to Timperley so that freight to Yorkshire could use this link

The MSC used to have its own railway on the north bank of the Ship Canal, which had connections to BR at Warrington. At the Salford end, there were 2 connections to BR, one from Weaste to Eccles, the other joining the ex L&YR line at Windsor Bridge Jn -a short part of which is now used by the Windsor link. (Plus another connection to the CLC line at Trafford Park.)