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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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WelshBluebird

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But the current government was returned having run with leaving the single market etc. as part of its election manifesto.

Not every matter of policy should be put to the public for a bare majority vote! I’m certainly not in favour of government by plebiscite.

You mean the DUP and the Conservatives had a joint election manifesto? Really?
Of course they didn't, so I really don't think you can use the fact the Tories are in power right now to argue that the public supported their election manifesto, because they didn't (if not for the DUP).

As for "government by plebiscite" that is exactly what having a referendum in the first place was though, was it not?
Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that the majority of people who voted actually fully understand the consequences? We are seeing it now with the right wing papers complaining of the possibilities of travel abroad being more difficult (well duh, if we are not part of freedom of movement then that is damn obvious that extra difficulty travelling could be a consequence!).
But of course, that takes us back to the real reason the referendum happened. So the Tory party could pick up UKIP votes and to keep the euroskeptics in the party happy. Nothing at all to do with genuinely wanting to give people a choice.
 
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northwichcat

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Huh? Over 50% voted in favour of leaving the EU

And yet some of those are against soft Brexit saying it's 'leaving in name only.' It appears you are one of those based on your earlier posts.

And you’re the one asking for another referendum (which no one appears to be offering!) because you want to thwart brexit. Why can’t you just admit it?

It’s a pointless discussion anyway until such time as another referendum is actually on the cards.

I'll accept Brexit if we get a good deal and the majority of the population are happy with it. I've said that three times now, why is your brain unable to absorb that information?
 

northwichcat

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But the current government was returned having run with leaving the single market etc. as part of its election manifesto.

Not every matter of policy should be put to the public for a bare majority vote! I’m certainly not in favour of government by plebiscite.

The Conservative manifesto said they will get a "deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement." So on that basis you are willing to accept no deal should mean a General Election and not ploughing ahead with no deal Brexit, just as Jeremy Corbyn said. Also it refers to settling the 'divorce bill' and making contributions to the EU for the services we will still require after leaving - so that nullifies your earlier argument. ;)
 

SWTCommuter

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The Conservative manifesto said they will get a "deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement."

The Conservative manifesto did not say they will get a "deep and special partnership", it said they will seek one.

Conservative Party manifesto 2017 said:
As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or
customs union but we will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive
free trade and customs agreement. There may be specific European programmes
in which we might want to participate and if so, it will be reasonable that we make a
contribution. We will determine a fair settlement of the UK’s rights and obligations
as a departing member state, in accordance with the law and in the spirit of the UK’s
continuing partnership with the EU. The principle, however, is clear: the days of Britain
making vast annual contributions to the European Union will end.
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
 

EM2

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I'd vote for Such to bring some sanity back into politics....
Some of Such's policies when the leader of The Official Monster Raving Loony Party (and its predecessor, The National Teenage Party) include:
  • 24-hour licensing laws
  • Lowering the voting age to 18
  • Abolition of dog licences
  • The legalisation of commercial radio
  • The pedestrianisation of Carnaby Street
  • Passports for pets
  • Abolition of the 11 plus exam
 

Howardh

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Some of Such's policies when the leader of The Official Monster Raving Loony Party (and its predecessor, The National Teenage Party) include:
  • 24-hour licensing laws
  • Lowering the voting age to 18
  • Abolition of dog licences
  • The legalisation of commercial radio
  • The pedestrianisation of Carnaby Street
  • Passports for pets
  • Abolition of the 11 plus exam
Clearly ahead of his time!
 

northwichcat

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Did the Conservatives and the Lib Dems when in coalition? Genuine question...

Of course not. They formed a coalition agreement after the election, it wasn't until the election results came in that it was realised Conservatives+Lib Dems could form a majority government while Labour+Lib Dems could only form a minority government. Even then a coalition wasn't the only option on the table.

The difference is there were some policies which were in both the Conservative and Lib Dem manifestos e.g. HS2 and reducing welfare* and almost 60% of voters voted for one or the other of the parties. Plus in most parts of England, Wales and Scotland there were at least some Conservative voters and some Lib Dem voters.

With the Conservatives and DUP they only got 43% of the total vote, no-one in England, Wales or Scotland voted for the DUP and even in Northern Ireland there are areas where no-one votes DUP.

* Although the Lib Dems focused on wanting to take income based benefits off the better off who were claiming them, while the Conservatives focused on cutting them for anyone and everyone.
 

Billy A

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....

There’s more chance of Northern Ireland becoming an independent state in its own right than joining the ROI. That’s still highly unlikely though, there’s no realistic chain of events I can foresee where NI will leave the UK.

There is a realistic chain of events that I can foresee though. The demographics of Northern Ireland are changing year by year as the Catholic community has a higher birth rate and lower emigration rate. If recent figures are to be believed a majority of those of working age are now Catholics. Equating voting intentions to religious persuasion is, even in NI, over simplistic as opinion polls have shown that the majority in favour of the current arrangement is higher than a sectarian headcount would suggest, but nonetheless the percentage of the population disposed to reunification is only going to increase over time. Once opinion polls show a consistent majority in favour of reunification on both sides of the border a referendum will follow. As to when or indeed if this happens is anybody's guess.
 

Intercity 225

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There is a realistic chain of events that I can foresee though. The demographics of Northern Ireland are changing year by year as the Catholic community has a higher birth rate and lower emigration rate. If recent figures are to be believed a majority of those of working age are now Catholics. Equating voting intentions to religious persuasion is, even in NI, over simplistic as opinion polls have shown that the majority in favour of the current arrangement is higher than a sectarian headcount would suggest, but nonetheless the percentage of the population disposed to reunification is only going to increase over time. Once opinion polls show a consistent majority in favour of reunification on both sides of the border a referendum will follow. As to when or indeed if this happens is anybody's guess.

I largely agree with this as your rationale makes perfect sense. I’ve highlighted part of your quote in bold though, not because I disagree with it but because that’s the main reason why I believe that Irish reunification is unlikely at any point in the foreseeable future.

There will always be large percentages of people in NI who identify as either British or Irish but in addition to that there’s an ever increasing number who consider themselves to be Northern Irish as a unique identity all of it’s own. And the percentage in this third category increases with each generation. Anecdotal evidence I’ve had from people who identify as Northern Irish as to why they choose to do so mainly comes from that they’re sick of the sectarian past, want no more violence/trouble and feel that a single Northern Irish identity is useful at helping to break down religious/political divides.

Saying that, the ones I’ve met have no intention of wanting to change the power-sharing institution or the constitutional status of Northern Ireland because the status quo has created a form of lasting peace and that’s the most important thing to them.

I can foresee events in which an independent NI could happen, with the two main ones being a hard border as a result of Brexit or Scottish independence causing the breakup of the UK into its component nations but I think that there would still be too much unrest from the Unionist community if Irish reunification was attempted to make it palatable to the majority of the NI population. Saying that, I suspect that this unrest wouldn’t be as strong if NI independence was the end result rather than reunification.

Of course my NI theory above is partly reliable on anecdotal evidence from a small sample size in real terms but there is further reading available on the subject that reinforces my opinion. For anyone interested this Wiki page is a good starting point:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland

As you’ve already mentioned though, Northern Irish politics is an incredibly complex subject (probably worthy of it’s own thread) and considering this is the Brexit thread I don’t want to stray too far from the topic already under discussion.

So bearing that in mind, but whilst also keeping NI in the current discussion I’d like to ask the Brexiters on this thread how they propose managing the UK’s border post Brexit because I can’t think of any good solution.

Unsurprisingly the EU have rejected the Chequers agreement border proposals because they’re unworkable, so as far as I can see we’re left with two options:

1. We continue to follow all EU regulations indefinitely in order to maintain an open border in Northern Ireland and so that we continue to have minimal checks at UK ports.

2. We impose a hard border, but how can this be done without creating unrest in NI and huge traffic problems in/around our port cities and probably Kent as a whole?

Or is there a third way? If there is please enlighten me!
 

Bromley boy

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Of course they didn't, so I really don't think you can use the fact the Tories are in power right now to argue that the public supported their election manifesto, because they didn't (if not for the DUP).

No, but the fact remains the Tories had that as part of their manifesto. As per constitutional convention the Tories were allowed to form a coalition government. That gives at least some clarity on the desired direction of Brexit.

As does the simple common sense fact that the average man on the street voting for Brexit clearly wasn’t voting for a political sleight of hand favoured by remainers!

As for "government by plebiscite" that is exactly what having a referendum in the first place was though, was it not?

It’s necessary for major constitutional reforms in the most broad brush terms, questions such as: should we abolish the monarchy; should we abandon first past the post for PR; should we remain in or leave the EU.

In terms of more detailed policy it’s nonsensical to suggest bare majority approval should be necessary to get something over the line. This would be completely unworkable - plebiscite votes are a necessary evil on occasion but should be used sparingly.

Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that the majority of people who voted actually fully understand the consequences? We are seeing it now with the right wing papers complaining of the possibilities of travel abroad being more difficult (well duh, if we are not part of freedom of movement then that is damn obvious that extra difficulty travelling could be a consequence!).

Probably not but, given we haven’t even left yet, they still don’t!

It’s also true that most remainers didn’t know the true consequences of remaining given how much the EU has changed since the last vote.
 
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Bromley boy

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I'll accept Brexit if we get a good deal and the majority of the population are happy with it. I've said that three times now, why is your brain unable to absorb that information?

And why is your brain unable to grasp the fact that we are discussing two completely different questions:

1. Should the U.K. remain or leave the EU? (big picture constituonal change), and
2. Should the detailed trade deal that is thrashed out be approved or not? (As with any other detailed agreement, this is a matter of policy to be dealt with by government)

These questions are asking completely different things and are quite distinct from one another: (1) is suitable for a plebiscite vote, (2) clearly isn’t.

Can’t you comprehend that it’s possible for the 2016 referendum to have decreed, by bare majority, that the U.K. should leave the EU without it simultaneously being necessary or desirable for a bare majority of the population to approve the trade deal finally agreed? Where does it end? Will you also be asking for seperare referenda on fishery quotas and agricultural policy?

Parliament will be getting a vote on any final deal. Why isn’t that good enough for you?

The reasons why a further referendum is undesirable are obvious to the majority of remainers I know personally, just as they clearly are to many on here. It’s no great surprise you appear to be struggling with this. As usual in these exchanges your pro EU bias seems to be clouding any ability you (may) have to think rationally!

The 2016 vote didn’t go your way. That’s hard luck I’m afraid. It’s now quite obvious that you cannot accept this and want to keep rerunning the same boring arguments and having further votes until you get your desired answer.


The Conservative manifesto said they will get a "deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement." So on that basis you are willing to accept no deal should mean a General Election and not ploughing ahead with no deal Brexit, just as Jeremy Corbyn said. Also it refers to settling the 'divorce bill' and making contributions to the EU for the services we will still require after leaving - so that nullifies your earlier argument. ;)

@SWTCommuter has beaten me to it on this one!

It doesn’t nullify it since it’s a factually incorrect statement: it’s just another silly smokescreen/pointless attempt at diversion.
 
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Intercity 225

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It’s necessary for major constitutional reforms in the most broad brush terms, questions such as: should we abolish the monarchy; should we abandon first past the post for PR; should we remain in or leave the EU.

In terms of more detailed policy it’s nonsensical to suggest bare majority approval of any more detailed policy should necessary to get something over the line. This would be completely unworkable - plebiscite votes are a necessary evil on occasion but should be used sparingly.

I disagree that they’re necessary for major constitutional reforms, if someone wants to abolish the monarchy, change the voting system, leave/join an international body etc then they should vote for parties that pledge to do those things. In fact, I never want us to have a referendum on anything ever again - they’re incredibly divisive blunt tools during which lies and misinformation can be spread with nobody held to account at the end of the process.

At least with an election every four/five years the electorate is able to assess the performance of those in power and choose to retain/remove them accordingly.

I still think Brexit is a disaster and politically speaking cancelling it is what I want to happen more than anything else but I’m finding these “People’s Vote”, “Best for Britain” and “Final Say” campaigns that have popped up a bit cringeworthy. The names are hideous for starters.

What I do think will ultimately happen is that the transition period will be extended until our 2022 general election by which time one of the major parties will have shifted to a remain position. They’ll then be in pole position to win the election.
 

Bromley boy

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I disagree that they’re necessary for major constitutional reforms, if someone wants to abolish the monarchy, change the voting system, leave/join an international body etc then they should vote for parties that pledge to do those things. In fact, I never want us to have a referendum on anything ever again - they’re incredibly divisive blunt tools during which lies and misinformation can be spread with nobody held to account at the end of the process.

I agree with the second part of the above. They are certainly blunt instruments, which is why they should only ever be used for the most broad brush of questions - certainly not to rubber stamp detailed trade agreements! That’s why we delegate these detailed decisions to the government, after all!

Where I differ from you is that I do think they have an important role to play in resolving big picture constitutional questions to which there’s no “right” answer.

In those cases it’s right for the government to seek direct instructions from the electorate. These issues are so important that they should be addressed individually, rather than clouded by the “noise” of a general election campaign.

I still think Brexit is a disaster and politically speaking cancelling it is what I want to happen more than anything else but I’m finding these “People’s Vote”, “Best for Britain” and “Final Say” campaigns that have popped up a bit cringeworthy. The names are hideous for starters.

For what it’s worth I think that’s a perfectly respectable position. At least you’re honest enough to say what you really think! And of course you should vote accordingly.
 
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EM2

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Should the detailed trade deal that is thrashed out be approved or not? (As with any other detailed agreement, this is a matter of policy to be dealt with by government)
But it isn't a trade deal is it? It's a relationship deal.
It'll have to cover the Irish border, travel and tourism, reciprocal arrangements for healthcare, welfare (including pensions) and residency, every single aspect of how this country currently deals with the EU.
 

AlterEgo

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I largely agree with this as your rationale makes perfect sense. I’ve highlighted part of your quote in bold though, not because I disagree with it but because that’s the main reason why I believe that Irish reunification is unlikely at any point in the foreseeable future.

There will always be large percentages of people in NI who identify as either British or Irish but in addition to that there’s an ever increasing number who consider themselves to be Northern Irish as a unique identity all of it’s own. And the percentage in this third category increases with each generation. Anecdotal evidence I’ve had from people who identify as Northern Irish as to why they choose to do so mainly comes from that they’re sick of the sectarian past, want no more violence/trouble and feel that a single Northern Irish identity is useful at helping to break down religious/political divides.

That’s true, but many people consider themselves Northern Irish as well as Irish, or Northern Irish as well as British. For those people it’s like a tag line or sub brand. I think this is well understandable as Northern Ireland is a unique place. My dad’s pushing 70 but I’ve always seen him, and he’s seen himself as Irish and Northern Irish - if you’re born in Derry you’re Irish but it’s a slightly different sort of Irish to being born south of the border.

I can foresee events in which an independent NI could happen, with the two main ones being a hard border as a result of Brexit or Scottish independence causing the breakup of the UK into its component nations but I think that there would still be too much unrest from the Unionist community if Irish reunification was attempted to make it palatable to the majority of the NI population. Saying that, I suspect that this unrest wouldn’t be as strong if NI independence was the end result rather than reunification.

Ah no, you spoiled it. :)

Northern Irish identity is not a national identity but more a civic one. It doesn’t come with any aspirations of self determination. There is literally zero chance of an independent Northern Ireland. It cannot support itself, for a start.

Or is there a third way? If there is please enlighten me!

Cede Northern Ireland to the Republic. Job done.

(Not a serious suggestion!) :D
 

northwichcat

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And why is your brain unable to grasp the fact that we are discussing two completely different questions:

Because my brain works logically and I presume if you quote my post you are discussing the same point, not something different. Like I've said a few weeks back please don't quote my posts if you want to discuss a different point, start a new post with no quote in it.
 

Howardh

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Or is there a third way? If there is please enlighten me!
Hong Kong. It's as unlikely as all the others, when Hong Kong was seeded back to China, it kept it's autonomy (to a degree) and managed with customs and checks from China (ie within it's own country). This is about as unlikely as any other "solution" and would require the Irish Sea border, but a "third way" was asked for and there you go.

It's about the only place in the world where there is anything resembling Norn/UK and Ireland (??).
 

northwichcat

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Bromley boy

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Because my brain works logically and I presume if you quote my post you are discussing the same point, not something different. Like I've said a few weeks back please don't quote my posts if you want to discuss a different point, start a new post with no quote in it.

I am discussing the same point, this is just yet more diversion!

TL/DR: a plebiscite vote to approve detailed trade agreement is a profoundly stupid idea for the reasons outlined above. Either you don’t realise that or you do and are only in favour of it because you want to frustrate Brexit.

I give up.
 

WelshBluebird

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No, but the fact
remains the Tories had that as part of their manifesto. As per constitutional convention the Tories were allowed to form a coalition government. That gives at least some clarity on the desired direction of Brexit.

As does the simple common sense fact that the average man on the street voting for Brexit clearly wasn’t voting for a political sleight of hand favoured by remainers!

But to the extent of assuming that the majority of the country wants that "desired direction of Brexit"? I call BS.
The fact is the majority to leave was pretty damn slim. Slim enough that people are questioning if that majority would even still exist. That is before you look at those who voted leave because they wanted a Swizerland type relationship with the EU etc.
There is simply no way the majority of the country back a hard no deal Brexit. You say "the average man on the street voting for Brexit clearly wasn’t voting for a political sleight of hand favoured by remainers!" but neither was what we are going towards now. That is not what 52% voted for. All the talk about respecting the will of the people - then why don't leavers now want to actually listen to the people again?

It’s necessary for major constitutional reforms in the most broad brush terms, questions such as: should we abolish the monarchy; should we abandon first past the post for PR; should we remain in or leave the EU.

In terms of more detailed policy it’s nonsensical to suggest bare majority approval should be necessary to get something over the line. This would be completely unworkable - plebiscite votes are a necessary evil on occasion but should be used sparingly.

But surely the ongoing nature of our relationship with the EU is also a "broad brush" question. Probably even more broad brush than the Brexit question itself.

Probably not but, given we haven’t even left yet, they still don’t!

Oh come on. Do you really believe that "the average man on the street voting for Brexit" wanted the possibility of a no deal? And by that I mean literal no deal. Not some kind of emergency deal with is what some of you leavers seem to think no deal means. No deal means literally nothing. So everything would stop when it comes to UK - EU stuff. As we have said before, that is very unlikely to happen an what will actually happen is some kind of emergency deal to extend the period of time we actually have to make all of the required treaties / deals / negotiations etc.

It’s also true that most remainers didn’t know the true consequences of remaining given how much the EU has changed since the last vote.

The "true consequence" of remaining would have been the status quo.

And why is your brain unable to grasp the fact that we are discussing two completely different questions:
2. Should the detailed trade deal that is thrashed out be approved or not? (As with any other detailed agreement, this is a matter of policy to be dealt with by government)

But that isn't the question though is it. Most of it has nothing to do with trade and everything to do with our general relationship with the EU going forward. Very much a "broad brush" question as I said above.
 

furnessvale

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The "true consequence" of remaining would have been the status quo.

Ah yes, he famous "status quo" as adopted by remainers.

"Continued membership of the EU, no matter what direction it takes, even to forming itself as a United States of Europe".
 

WelshBluebird

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Ah yes, he famous "status quo" as adopted by remainers.

"Continued membership of the EU, no matter what direction it takes, even to forming itself as a United States of Europe".

A direction heavily influenced and directed by our own elected officials, both at a MEP level and UK government level.
I find the idea leavers have that the UK has been dictated to by the EU for decades hilarious. We have been the ones dictating and leading EU policy for a large amount of that time.
Hell, until we voted to leave were were still one of the most influential countries in the EU. The very fact we were able to have our own way on so many issues shows how powerful we were.

So to correct your quote: "Continued membership of the EU, led in a direction influenced by our own elected officials, with the option to continue vetoing ideas that we do not like".
 

Bromley boy

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But to the extent of assuming that the majority of the country wants that "desired direction of Brexit"? I call BS.

The desired direction of brexit is to leave the EU. Surely you don’t believe leave voters were voting to leave the EU, remain in the common market etc. Without a seat at the table?

That has been somewhat further clarified by the current government’s manifesto as I have stated before.

People voting leave did so in full knowledge that no deal was a possibility, as they had been repeatedly assured of this by the remain camp!

There is simply no way the majority of the country back a hard no deal Brexit. You say "the average man on the street voting for Brexit clearly wasn’t voting for a political sleight of hand favoured by remainers!" but neither was what we are going towards now. That is not what 52% voted for. All the talk about respecting the will of the people - then why don't leavers now want to actually listen to the people again?

It doesn’t matter. The majority voted to leave the EU and the remain camp assured as no deal would be a possibility (along with other doom and gloom predictions).

It’s interesting that remain love telling leavers what to think!

Correct me if I’m wrong but the argument from remain seems to be:

- we gave you a vote we didn’t really want to give you to shut UKIP up;

- we tried to terrify you into voting our way by giving you a load of doom and gloom predictions, making sure you knew the worst case scenarios;

- despite that you still voted to leave;

- we can only assume you’re so stupid that you can’t really have meant it, or understood what you voted for, so now we are going to give you another vote until you get it right.

I find the hyposrisy of this approach staggering - if remain had won leave would have been absolutely pilloried for asking for another vote!

But surely the ongoing nature of our relationship with the EU is also a "broad brush" question. Probably even more broad brush than the Brexit question itself.

No it’s a highly nuanced detailed question encompassing mostly trade and all the other bits of everyday life the EU increasingly wants to dominate.

Oh come on. Do you really believe that "the average man on the street voting for Brexit" wanted the possibility of a no deal? And by that I mean literal no deal. Not some kind of emergency deal with is what some of you leavers seem to think no deal means. No deal means literally nothing. So everything would stop when it comes to UK - EU stuff. As we have said before, that is very unlikely to happen an what will actually happen is some kind of emergency deal to extend the period of time we actually have to make all of the required treaties / deals / negotiations etc.

No deal probably means WTO terms. I’m also hopeful something will be worked out but equally I don’t think no deal would be as bad as remain like to make out, and the longer things go on the more I’m starting to favour it!

The "true consequence" of remaining would have been the status quo.

@furnessvale has addressed this point very well.
 

NSEFAN

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Ah yes, he famous "status quo" as adopted by remainers.

"Continued membership of the EU, no matter what direction it takes, even to forming itself as a United States of Europe".
The UK leaving the EU won't prevent it from becoming a United States of Europe if that's what the other members make it, so the alleged condition of "EU bossing UK about" will only get worse, not better, especially if we decide to crash right out without any kind of deal.
 

furnessvale

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So to correct your quote: "Continued membership of the EU, led in a direction influenced by our own elected officials, with the option to continue vetoing ideas that we do not like".
By all means make your own quotes but kindly leave mine alone.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that at last the British people have been given a say in the matter after decades of all UK politicians cozying up in search of seats on the EU gravy train. The people spoke and the majority who could be bothered voting, voted out.

A secondary flaw in your argument is that many vetoes have now been removed, in favour of majority voting so, yes, laws can be passed by the EU that even our sycophantic governments may wish to stop.
 

WelshBluebird

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The desired direction of brexit is to leave the EU. Surely you don’t believe leave voters were voting to leave the EU, remain in the common market etc. Without a seat at the table?

Well apart from the fact that some leavers WERE advocating this position, so yes, some were.
The EU is not the single market, and the single market is no the EU.
You can leave one without the other.
If the intention was to leave everything, then that should have been specified as part of the referendum question.
Are you trying to say nobody voted leave in order for us to end up an EEA member for example? In which case you may want to talk to leave campaign itself who suggested that as an option!

That has been somewhat further clarified by the current government’s manifesto as I have stated before.

And as I stated before, a manifesto that did not win an election.

People voting leave did so in full knowledge that no deal was a possibility, as they had been repeatedly assured of this by the remain camp!

Well apart from the fact that we were branded project fear and leave voters were told we were making up that possibility.
Again I will say, there is literally no way the majority of the public, not even the majority of leaver voters, want a no deal Brexit. So why have we got idiots like Boris trying to force us down that direction?

It doesn’t matter. The majority voted to leave the EU and the remain camp assured as no deal would be a possibility (along with other doom and gloom predictions).

As above.

It’s interesting that remain love telling leavers what to think!

Correct me if I’m wrong but the argument from remain seems to be:

- we gave you a vote we didn’t really want to give you to shut UKIP up;

- we tried to terrify you into voting our way by giving you a load of doom and gloom predictions, making sure you knew the worst case scenarios;

- despite that you still voted to leave;

- we know you can’t really have meant it or understood what you voted for so now we are going to give you another vote until you get it right.

I find the hyposrisy of this approach staggering - if remain had won leave would have been absolutely pilloried for asking for another vote!

To reply to those, my views on them are:
  • The referendum was called not because Cameron or the Tories actually thought the public should choose. Not even Boris, Rhys-Mogg or anyone on the leave side of government actually believes in the public choosing. They are just trumpeting leave because they think it politically works for them (look at Boris's comments in the past as an example!). And the referendum itself was only called so the Tories wouldn't lose votes to UKIP, so they could try to hover up some of the traditional Labour voting but now UKIP voting public, and to stop the right wing of the party from imploding.
  • The "doom and gloom" predictions are fairly realistic in a worst case no deal scenario. Now, I'd agree the campaign was shocking and it really should have pushed the benefits (at least locally in South Wales, just doing a map of EU funded projects would have done wonders to focus peoples minds - seriously, pretty much every single village in the valleys and some kind of EU funded project that has benefited that area, funding that simply would not be given to the area by a Westminster system that for decades has decided to underfund Wales) but that doesn't mean that in a no deal scenario those predictions can't come true.
  • The referendum was about the EU. Not the single market etc. Once again there are many many quotes from leavers suggesting that "no one is talking about leaving the single market" and other options are available to us like the EEA and Switzerland etc. Options that would involve staying in the single market.
  • The government has taken a small majority vote and has basically ignored the other half of the country, and is also ignoring a large part of the majority vote who do not want a no deal situation.

As for another vote - once again what is being proposed is a vote on "broad brush" relationship with the EU going forward as a country outside the EU.

No it’s a highly nuanced detailed question encompassing mostly trade and all the other bits of everyday life the EU increasingly wants to dominate.

I guess we have three things then. Brexit itself, the general direction of our future relationship and the trade deal. Our future relationship very much is a broad brush, surely?

No deal probably means WTO terms. I’m also hopeful something will be worked out but equally I don’t think no deal would be as bad as remain like to make out, and the longer things go on the more I’m starting to favour it!

For trade yes. But for specific things where we have a UK-EU treaty or deal, there aren't WTO terms for some of those things.

@furnessvale has addressed this point very well.

And I have addressed his point.
 
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