[Fantasy] How Would You Start A Bus War In <Insert City Here>?

[tbtc]

(just for fun)

I was going to comment in the Lothian/ First/ West Lothian threads about how First could attack Lothian in Edinburgh, but (instead of getting too specific about that potential "bus war") I thought I'd expand it to a general comment...

...if you were starting a bus war in any particular town/city, how would you do it?

Let's say...

• you have a fleet capable of meeting a daily PVR of fifteen buses
• you are trying to hit the dominant operator in the pocket/ make as much money for yourself (rather than recreate esoteric links)
• up to you if you want to go for old liveries and old route numbers (that might play well with the "twirlies" but mean nothing to the under-forties) or directly copy current routes/ numbers

What's the best way to muscle your way into a city? Are there cross-city links that aren't being provided by current bus companies or do you throw your resources duplicating busy services?

 

[Cesarcollie]

(just for fun)

I was going to comment in the Lothian/ First/ West Lothian threads about how First could attack Lothian in Edinburgh, but (instead of getting too specific about that potential "bus war") I thought I'd expand it to a general comment...

...if you were starting a bus war in any particular town/city, how would you do it?

Let's say...

• you have a fleet capable of meeting a daily PVR of fifteen buses
• you are trying to hit the dominant operator in the pocket/ make as much money for yourself (rather than recreate esoteric links)
• up to you if you want to go for old liveries and old route numbers (that might play well with the "twirlies" but mean nothing to the under-forties) or directly copy current routes/ numbers

What's the best way to muscle your way into a city? Are there cross-city links that aren't being provided by current bus companies or do you throw your resources duplicating busy services?

How deep are your pockets? That's a serious question. Whichever option you pick will lose money heavily for many months /years - and unless the established operator gives up, probably for ever.....!!

 

[Megafuss]

You really need to know the local market before you enter it. If we take Yourbus for example, they fought with NCT and Trentbarton on a number of corridors, found they were not making anything as the competitors were pretty good, so shifted focus to Derby where ARRIVA have an "interesting" history with the TC.

Once you have found your market, it basically comes down to getting the basics right with an attractive service level which is equal or better than the competitor at an attractive price (and introductory offer is always good). it's not a given though. Go North East launched a service through various North Sunderland estates a few years back with brand new versa and low fares running every 10 mins, the route duplicated parts of well established Stagecoach routes, but folk stuck with what they know and the route eventually got canned.

I know this sounds obvious but for this sort of thing to succeed, you basically have to know the current operator is falling well below par before you enter into a fight, otherwise you are just seen as the new service nobody knows about.

 

[DaveHarries]

An interesting idea.

If I was to startup in Plymouth then probably the first thing I would do would be to create links across the north of the city through to Dereford Hospital. I would do this by adapting a route similar to Plymouth Citybus' Service 43 (City Centre - Milehouse - St. Budeaux - Ernesettle). Then I would do the following:

Service 43 (City Centre - Ernesettle):
43: Extend to Derriford Hospital via. Whitleigh (Shrewsbury Road, currently part of Service 44), Tamerton Foliot Road (currently part of Services 40 & 41) and Looseleigh Lane (currently part of Service 42B as well as the soon to be withdrawn 50A and 51A). Frequency: every 20 minutes, Monday to Saturday daytime only (except Public Holidays). Journey time off-peak, if the fantasy TT I once did for such a route is anything to go by, would be about 55 minutes.

Those journeys not extended to Derriford Hospital would become Service 43A and extend to Holly Park, thereby replacing 50A / 51A between City Centre and Holly Park). Frequency: every 20 minutes, Monday to Saturday daytime only (except Public Holidays). Journey time off-peak, if the fantasy TT I once did for such a route is anything to go by, would be about 36 minutes.

Evening journeys on Mondays to Saturdays (except Public Holidays) numbered as Service 43B and operate the same Service 43A route to Holly Park before rejoinig the 43 route to Derriford Hospital. Frequency: every 20 minutes, Monday to Saturday evening only (except Public Holidays). Journey time off-peak, if the fantasy TT I once did for such a route is anything to go by, would be about 57 minutes.

Sundays and Bank Holidays would see Service 43B in the daytime with Service 43 in evening periods.

The Monday to Saturday 43 / 43A arrangement would, by my calculations, require a PVR of 11 vehicles with the 43 & 43A interowrking at the City Centre (Royal Parade). Double-deckers (Enviro400 MMC probably) would be used for all journeys during the day but single-deckers might work during the evening.

I would also tinker with two other routes:

Service 16 (City Centre - King's Tamerton) would maintain its current route as far as Weston Mill Hill and then serve Kings Tamerton Road, the Military Academy, Peter's Park Lane, Wakefield Avenue, Ferrers Road and Fletemoor Road before terminating at St. Budeaux Square. PVR would be 4 buses.

Service 44 (City Centre - Whitleigh) would also get a tinkering with its route and timetable and there would be two other new routes as well. All that goes beyond my 15-vehicle limit set by this thread however. If someone raises my limit I will elaborate further.

Dave

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Milton Keynes, register duplicates of the 6 (Wolverton to Lakes Estate) which is by far the busiest route. Indeed it surprises me that nobody has actually tried that yet.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

In Milton Keynes, register duplicates of the 6 (Wolverton to Lakes Estate) which is by far the busiest route. Indeed it surprises me that nobody has actually tried that yet.

IIRC On a Mission tried a service 44 which was an amalgamation of 4,5,6 which lasted about 6 months and led to the bankruptcy of the company!

 

[Surreyman]

1.Target a specific route/group of routes, known to be good performers, know the specific market(s)/demographic you are targeting.
2. Employ drivers/staff on better terms than the incumbent operator (recruiting & retaining good quality staff is likely to be the biggest headache).
3. The 'Service' has to be markedly better than the existing operator, better vehicles(preferably brand new) with good seating and a 'Quality' livery/interior, competitive pricing, good marketing, frequency, a good PR operation, local radio, press, social media etc.
4. Deep pockets, able to run the operation at a loss for at least 2 years.
5. A well located modern depot, with first class maintenance facilities.
6. Shortly after start up, Launch another 'decoy' competitor operation, seemingly with no outward connection to first operation. Different route(S), different identity, very low cost, second hand vehicles, high frequency, cut price ticketing, ability to sustain losses for several years.
7. None of this may succeed in producing a profitable long term business but the incumbent operator, would suffer a loss of turnover, a reduction in profit, loss of quality staff, and a big hit to morale, confidence and public image.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A more thorough inter connecting set of services that meet up with each other and also link with other modes of transport would be a good start. One of the most infuriating aspects of bus travel is the inability for operators to even co-ordinate their own services - which often mean people changing routes end up with a half hour wait. A slight tweak to the timetable could often provide more seamless connections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC On a Mission tried a service 44 which was an amalgamation of 4,5,6 which lasted about 6 months and led to the bankruptcy of the company!

I forgot that one, though there have been odd other attempts, all of which didn't follow the established 6 route which has been in operation on near enough the same route and frequency for something like 20 years, possibly more. (It used to be numbered 5, but that's the only significant change).

When you have a main route that is that well-established, the mind somewhat boggles as to why none of the attempts simply directly duplicated it.

ISTR that Arriva were so "not bothered" by OaM's attempt that they did precisely nothing about it and waited for it to go away on its own.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be almost impossible to do in Knutsford now given if you register a commercial service which duplicates a subsided service, the subsided service has to either be cancelled, re-routed or truncated to prevent competition between a commercial and subsided service. Saying that maybe that's the solution to the problem that the bus network is limited and not really based on current demand. You could register new commercial services which better meet demands and if they a success keep them, if it doesn't make enough to be commercially viable but has resulted in the council having to revised contracted services then they have to look at more than one option when you cancel the commercial registration.

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge: Introduce a 5 minute interval service between the City Centre, Railway Station and Addenbrooke's Hospital campus, calling all stops. Possibly extending to Babraham Road Park & Ride. £1 single, £8-10 weekly ticket. Basically undercut Stagecoach on their busiest corridor and flood it with buses (though Stagecoach would probably retaliate..)

Bolton: Probably a duplicate or limited stop version of the 471 between Bolton and Bury (only) - get that free pass revenue in from people going to Bury Market! With the vehicles left over, an express bus between Bolton and Manchester City Centre via the A666 and East Lancs Road - in decent traffic the journey time gives rail a run for its money!

 

[Mwanesh]

A more thorough inter connecting set of services that meet up with each other and also link with other modes of transport would be a good start. One of the most infuriating aspects of bus travel is the inability for operators to even co-ordinate their own services - which often mean people changing routes end up with a half hour wait. A slight tweak to the timetable could often provide more seamless connections.

Coordinating timetables is frowned upon.You will be viewed as a cartel.If you ever do that you will be in front of the MMC or whatever it is called these days.

 

[Mwanesh]

1.Target a specific route/group of routes, known to be good performers, know the specific market(s)/demographic you are targeting.
2. Employ drivers/staff on better terms than the incumbent operator (recruiting & retaining good quality staff is likely to be the biggest headache).
3. The 'Service' has to be markedly better than the existing operator, better vehicles(preferably brand new) with good seating and a 'Quality' livery/interior, competitive pricing, good marketing, frequency, a good PR operation, local radio, press, social media etc.
4. Deep pockets, able to run the operation at a loss for at least 2 years.
5. A well located modern depot, with first class maintenance facilities.
6. Shortly after start up, Launch another 'decoy' competitor operation, seemingly with no outward connection to first operation. Different route(S), different identity, very low cost, second hand vehicles, high frequency, cut price ticketing, ability to sustain losses for several years.
7. None of this may succeed in producing a profitable long term business but the incumbent operator, would suffer a loss of turnover, a reduction in profit, loss of quality staff, and a big hit to morale, confidence and public image.

One route does not make a difference .You need to start with a network for the whole town.Most people connect to their workplaces or school.I remember one indie starting against the incumbent shiny new buses.No one used them because they did not cover the area.

 

[Surreyman]

Agree but we are only allowed to start with max PVR of 15, so in 'perfect world' you would start with one route/group, bed it in for at least 3 months & then register another, repeat every 3 months for as long as it takes for the opposition to withdraw/go bust. meantime you would be losing shedloads of money!

 

[Ianno87]

Coordinating timetables is frowned upon.You will be viewed as a cartel.If you ever do that you will be in front of the MMC or whatever it is called these days.

Presumably, only if *both* companies agree and that agreement can be proven?

If Company A keeps its timetable unchanged, and Company B makes an independent commercial decision to connect its buses with those of Company A, then that would be OK?

 

[GrogSmuggler]

Agree but we are only allowed to start with max PVR of 15, so in 'perfect world' you would start with one route/group, bed it in for at least 3 months & then register another, repeat every 3 months for as long as it takes for the opposition to withdraw/go bust. meantime you would be losing shedloads of money!

What do you mean, only allowed to start with a maximum Peak Vehicle Requirement of 15?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd start with a new service, half-hourly from Huddersfield to Denby Dale via the B6116 (Kirkburton Village, Shelley Top, Skelmanthorpe), pick-up/set-down only from Huddersfield to Morrison's at Waterloo. I'd run to a timetable that reflects 2018 traffic conditions rather than 1998 so that people could actually rely on the service, and time arrivals/departures at Denby Dale to connect with most trains to both Huddersfield and Sheffield (they're timed to cross at Clayton West Junction so there's just enough time for the driver to have a ciggie break).

Shouldn't be that difficult, really.

 

[Surreyman]

What do you mean, only allowed to start with a maximum Peak Vehicle Requirement of 15?

See tbcts original post.

 

[ChrisPJ]

(just for fun)

I was going to comment in the Lothian/ First/ West Lothian threads about how First could attack Lothian in Edinburgh, but (instead of getting too specific about that potential "bus war") I thought I'd expand it to a general comment...

...if you were starting a bus war in any particular town/city, how would you do it?

I know this is a general question, but if it was specifically in relation to Edinburgh, I think you would be on an absolute hiding to nothing (Whether from a Firstgroup perspective or anybody else).

Elsewhere, choose a place with a university and a dominant operator struggling to move the crowds. Then watch the cash roll in.

 

[Yorks185]

I`d start up in Halifax,looking at providing links not currently on offer but could become popular

- Service 502 Halifax - Illingworth - Bradshaw - Denholme - Cullingworth - Harden - Long Lee - Keighley
Re-introducing this link that seems to be brought up every year or 2,plus would provide Harden with a direct bus to Keighley,Operating Hourly using 2 vehicles

- Services 505/6: Halifax Bus Stn - Calderdale Royal Infirmary - Kings Cross - Thumb Hall - Pellon - Halifax (506 in reverse)
Both services operating Half Hourly,providing direct links from the Pellon & Thumb Hall area to the Hospital & links Kings Cross to the ASDA Superstore at Thumb Hall using 4 Vehicles

- Services 543 Halifax Bus Stn - Siddal - Exley - Southowram
Linking local villages together that currently dont have a direct link despite being fairly close together,Operating Hourly using 1 vehicle

- Service 544 Calderdale Royal Infirmary - Copley - Sowerby Br - Luddenden - Midgley - Mytholmroyd - Hebden Bridge
Providing a bus to the Royal Infirmary from parts of the Calder Valley that dont currently,as well as providing a service from the Midgley area into Hebden Br,Operating Hourly using 2 Vehicles

Using Minibuses (say Solos or Mellor) due to both some of the roads the routes would be operating on plus to help keep costs down,plus offer discount fares on sections that compete against others,such as £1 from Pellon or Illingworth into Halifax to pouch some customers.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

...if you were starting a bus war in any particular town/city, how would you do it?

Stand outside the town hall and shout "1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a bus war"?

 

[bussnapperwm]

How to start a bus war and remove the incumbent in 3 easy steps....

Worcestershire style.

Take Diamond on on the 2, 3, 10, 42 and 57/58, bus for bus.

Watch as diamond buses continually break down/have wheels fall off/burn themselves out (literally)

Laugh all the way to the bank at the general Rotala incompetence as they raise the white flag.

 

[Alex 2901]

How to start a bus war and remove the incumbent in 3 easy steps....

Worcestershire style.

Take Diamond on on the 2, 3, 10, 42 and 57/58, bus for bus.

Watch as diamond buses continually break down/have wheels fall off/burn themselves out (literally)

Laugh all the way to the bank at the general Rotala incompetence as they raise the white flag.

42 is tendered, and probably makes zilch for Diamond, other than the reimbursement from WCC.

Thing is, given the lack of investment in Kidderminster (and a lack of any impetus to do anything to improve), I'd be hesitant to do anything major, but, as an aside, i think i could have a reasonable go with the 15 buses allowed, so here goes...

K1 - Kidderminster, Rifle Range, Habberley, General Hospital & Kidderminster
PVR - 1 - Short Wheelbase vehicle.
Frequency- every 60 mins

K2, K2A - Kidderminster, General Hospital, Bewdley, Bark Hill (K2) or Hales Park (K2A)
PVR - 2/3
Frequency - every 60 mins each, every 30 to Bewdley

K3 - Kidderminster, Birchen Coppice, Stourport & Stourport Estates
PVR - 4
Frequency - every 20 mins

K4 - Kidderminster, Land Oak, Sion Hill, Ferndale, Franche & Kidderminster
PVR - 2
Frequency - every 60 mins

K5 - Kidderminster, Rail Station, Comberton, Spennells & Offmore
PVR - 1
Frequency- every 60 minutes.

Make absolute sure the K3 is priority, as that will be the big money spinner, and also plan ahead for the Stourport traffic...

 

[Alex 2901]

Some ideas for causing a bus war in Wolverhampton...

Get a fleet of knackered Darts, paint them in Dulux Red and call yourself Let's Go...

In all seriousness, this is how I'd do it:

X8 - Wolverhampton to Dudley
PVR - 3, running every 30 minutes.

59 - Wolverhampton to Ashmore Park
PVR - 5, running every 12 minutes throughout

529 - Wolverhampton to Walsall
PVR - 7, running every 12 minutes throughout

That way, you have the two most profitable routes in Wolverhampton, and the busy section of the third...

 

[Clip]

The number 7 route in Blackpool - rather a long route but it seems to rigorously stick to a timetable so you can be sat down for 5 minutes in the centre of town or even a minute or two at random stops throughout the journey to Lytham.
Its a stupid way of doing things and as such when im next up there im just going to rent a car

 

[Ianno87]

Elsewhere, choose a place with a university and a dominant operator struggling to move the crowds. Then watch the cash roll in.

Take on Stagecoach Warwickshire on Leamington-University of Warwick (the U1) - when I was there (10+ years ago) I think they ran the bare minimum frequency to just about meet demand (thus maximise profit)

Though it'd be hard to get in when all the Uniriders get sold at the start of the academic year.

 

[carlberry]

The number 7 route in Blackpool - rather a long route but it seems to rigorously stick to a timetable so you can be sat down for 5 minutes in the centre of town or even a minute or two at random stops throughout the journey to Lytham.
Its a stupid way of doing things and as such when im next up there im just going to rent a car

Sticking to the timetable is a legal requirement. However I realise that some operators around Blackpool might give the impression that legal requirements are just guidelines!

 

[Clip]

Sticking to the timetable is a legal requirement. However I realise that some operators around Blackpool might give the impression that legal requirements are just guidelines!

They should bin it then and just do it on frequency - it shouldnt take that long to get to Lytham from Blackpool North on a bloody bus

 

[Ianno87]

Sticking to the timetable is a legal requirement. However I realise that some operators around Blackpool might give the impression that legal requirements are just guidelines!

Can't you register a route as a 'frequent service' - i.e. fine provided buses are never more than 10 minutes apart? Although to coordinate that requires either a timetable or very 'involved' control arrangements.

 

[Typhoon]

How to start a bus war and remove the incumbent in 3 easy steps....

Worcestershire style.

Take Diamond on on the 2, 3, 10, 42 and 57/58, bus for bus.

Watch as diamond buses continually break down/have wheels fall off/burn themselves out (literally)

Laugh all the way to the bank at the general Rotala incompetence as they raise the white flag.

You might not need to take Diamond on for the 2

https://www.diamondbuses.com/media/1711/2-service-changes-020918.pdf

42 is tendered, and probably makes zilch for Diamond, other than the reimbursement from WCC.

Thing is, given the lack of investment in Kidderminster (and a lack of any impetus to do anything to improve), I'd be hesitant to do anything major, but, as an aside, i think i could have a reasonable go with the 15 buses allowed, so here goes...

K1 - Kidderminster, Rifle Range, Habberley, General Hospital & Kidderminster

K2, K2A - Kidderminster, General Hospital, Bewdley, Bark Hill (K2) or Hales Park (K2A)

K3 - Kidderminster, Birchen Coppice, Stourport & Stourport Estates

K4 - Kidderminster, Land Oak, Sion Hill, Ferndale, Franche & Kidderminster

K5 - Kidderminster, Rail Station, Comberton, Spennells & Offmore

Were you thinking of using a red livery? The people of Kidderminster might now realise what they have missed!