CatfordCat
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I have the urge to set something up in Berkshire, as a no-frills service in competition with Reading Buses' Lion and Leopard and Tiger.
Moggie Bus
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[Fantasy] How Would You Start A Bus War In <Insert City Here>?
- Thread starter tbtc
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tbtc
Veteran Member
I take on board the comments about deep pockets/ losing money etc - I agree with those - I just started this thread to consider where some of the "weak spots" are in towns/cities, where there are gaps in the market or whether it's just best to duplicate an existing busy route.
For example, in Sheffield, the routes from the City Centre to the Hallamshire Hospital (and adjacent Weston Park/ Childrens/ Jessops hospitals plus University of Sheffield) are all busy, the routes from the City Centre to the Northern General Hospital are all busy, but there's only a half hourly service between them (the Sheffield Community Transport H1, which avoids the city centre and can often see a standing load).
The Hallamshire is a good ten minute walk from the nearest Supertram stop - there are no trams near the Northern General. No heavy rail near either place too.
Whilst the Hallamshire has bus stops outside, the Northern General sits between main roads, most wards/ wings are a good five minutes walk away from Barnsley/Herries Roads (the H1 and a local minibus service enter the grounds, but there's no Stagecoach/First service into the Hospital grounds).
Since most Sheffield routes tend to be north-south *or* east-west, there's no Stagecoach/First service between the two hospital areas - despite the large number of Students, Patients and Staff going from one side of town to the other (these are Teaching Hospitals, and a lot of people learn/train/work at both sites) - some use the better parking at the Northern General as a P&R to get the H1 over to the Hallamshire.
So I think that there'd be a market for a cross-city service that linked these two - possibly something like Ecclesall - Banner Cross - Hunters Bar - Brocco Bank - Hallamshire - City Centre - A6135 - Northern General (loop round hospital grounds).
That would link the main University area with Studenty areas like Ecclesall Road (Hunters Bar to the Hallamshire is an under-served corridor IMHO), provide a link to the two main hospitals, managing not to directly duplicate existing First/Stagecoach services too much.
Maybe a ten to fifteen minute service? Stick buses in a red/yellow livery (people in Sheffield seem weirdly keen on the "Mainline" brand, twenty years later on - whilst First have 1910s/1960s/1980s heritage liveried buses - and Stagecoach a 1960s liveried tram - there's never been a Mainline revival). I think that'd go down well as a populist move.
I think you are right - Lothian seem to have the market sewn up - there are a couple of areas where I wonder if a daytime "express" would work (e.g. City - Dalkeith, stopping at Cameron Toll and the ERI)? Expresses certainly seem to work well to East Lothian (where there's the A1 Mussleburgh bypass), but I can't remember the last daytime express service to Midlothian (other than the X95 to the Borders).
Portobello to Leith can be done by the 21 and 49 (one every fifteen, one every twenty, so not well co-ordinated), if you fancy the scenic route via Lochend, but there's no "fast" service through Seafield and no service from the Portobello area to Ocean Terminal (despite virtually every other place in the city having a link to it). The old 32/52 used to serve Commercial Street and the road through Newhaven towards Granton but the 21 doesn't go north of Ferry Road.
But that's fairly thin gruel - I don't think there's anything juicy without a bus service (if anything, Lothian seem to be throwing resource at the kind of peripheral/ orbital services that wouldn't exist in other cities).
For example, in Sheffield, the routes from the City Centre to the Hallamshire Hospital (and adjacent Weston Park/ Childrens/ Jessops hospitals plus University of Sheffield) are all busy, the routes from the City Centre to the Northern General Hospital are all busy, but there's only a half hourly service between them (the Sheffield Community Transport H1, which avoids the city centre and can often see a standing load).
The Hallamshire is a good ten minute walk from the nearest Supertram stop - there are no trams near the Northern General. No heavy rail near either place too.
Whilst the Hallamshire has bus stops outside, the Northern General sits between main roads, most wards/ wings are a good five minutes walk away from Barnsley/Herries Roads (the H1 and a local minibus service enter the grounds, but there's no Stagecoach/First service into the Hospital grounds).
Since most Sheffield routes tend to be north-south *or* east-west, there's no Stagecoach/First service between the two hospital areas - despite the large number of Students, Patients and Staff going from one side of town to the other (these are Teaching Hospitals, and a lot of people learn/train/work at both sites) - some use the better parking at the Northern General as a P&R to get the H1 over to the Hallamshire.
So I think that there'd be a market for a cross-city service that linked these two - possibly something like Ecclesall - Banner Cross - Hunters Bar - Brocco Bank - Hallamshire - City Centre - A6135 - Northern General (loop round hospital grounds).
That would link the main University area with Studenty areas like Ecclesall Road (Hunters Bar to the Hallamshire is an under-served corridor IMHO), provide a link to the two main hospitals, managing not to directly duplicate existing First/Stagecoach services too much.
Maybe a ten to fifteen minute service? Stick buses in a red/yellow livery (people in Sheffield seem weirdly keen on the "Mainline" brand, twenty years later on - whilst First have 1910s/1960s/1980s heritage liveried buses - and Stagecoach a 1960s liveried tram - there's never been a Mainline revival). I think that'd go down well as a populist move.
I think you are right - Lothian seem to have the market sewn up - there are a couple of areas where I wonder if a daytime "express" would work (e.g. City - Dalkeith, stopping at Cameron Toll and the ERI)? Expresses certainly seem to work well to East Lothian (where there's the A1 Mussleburgh bypass), but I can't remember the last daytime express service to Midlothian (other than the X95 to the Borders).
Portobello to Leith can be done by the 21 and 49 (one every fifteen, one every twenty, so not well co-ordinated), if you fancy the scenic route via Lochend, but there's no "fast" service through Seafield and no service from the Portobello area to Ocean Terminal (despite virtually every other place in the city having a link to it). The old 32/52 used to serve Commercial Street and the road through Newhaven towards Granton but the 21 doesn't go north of Ferry Road.
But that's fairly thin gruel - I don't think there's anything juicy without a bus service (if anything, Lothian seem to be throwing resource at the kind of peripheral/ orbital services that wouldn't exist in other cities).
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Ahem. Warrington - Stockport express via Knutsford and Wilmslow.
Not sure mighty Knutsford qualifies as a city!
The idea of an operator launching a town network on a commercial basis to replace a mishmash of subsidised bits and pieces is an interesting one and perhaps more realistic in these days of 16-21 seat minibuses that are DDA compliant.
Perhaps there should be a DfT seed fund for such projects.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
A Solo M720 fits that bill.
You mean the same people who banned LA's from setting up municipal bus companies?
Yes, but how is that relevant?
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
I wonder if a French municipality set up a new bus company would it be allowed to operate in this country?
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Of course. But that's for another thread...
Not sure Knutsford to Stockport would be a viable bus route. It's unlikely to have a better journey time than the train and I think a large number of those who travel to Stockport do so to change trains rather than to visit Stockport, so integrated ticketing would be needed to make it attractive.
Not sure mighty Knutsford qualifies as a city!
The original post from @tbtc does say town or city. Although, according to a Robbie William's album track Knutsford is a city!
One of the problems with buses in Knutsford is the size of the buses. Due to them only having 28-35 seats we end up with long gaps between A and B what's effectively a duplicate service is operating between C and A at school starting/ending times, when the duplicate service wouldn't be needed if larger buses were used.
I would re launch the Stevenage Superbus in Stevenage, first starting with the SB1, same as Arriva's 1 but extending from Town Centre to Old Town and Lister Hospital. Initially using some second hand Dart SLF's (most likely Enviro 200's) to see how successful before moving on to other routes.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Well it can Mirror the 88 from the bus station and mirror the 370 or 11 from Altrincham. Use a high spec double decker with 2+1 coach seats and tables.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
I always wondered why there was no viable service between Knutsford and Warrington. It's an awkward journey by train yet could easily be done by bus and is one of the closest big Cheshire towns to Knutsford. I thought Warrington Borough were going to introduce something but it turns out to be a pretty minimal service operating via Lymm.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Because you’re looking at a higher affluent area, a route with very few villages and so population, and closer shopping and commercial centres to visit.
It's complicated.
There was a part subsided service (up to 5 return journeys per day) in the 1990s, most started at Lower Peover but some did Northwich-Lach Dennis-Lower Peover-Knutsford-High Legh-Lymm-Warrington. What also happened in the 1990s was Warrington became a unitary council meaning it was no longer under the control of Cheshire County Council and there was a disagreement between Cheshire County Council and Warrington Borough Council over bus subsides which result in Warrington Borough Transport pulling the 47 service (both the subsided and commercial bits) and Cheshire County Council putting out a tender for a token Lower Peover to Warrington service on Tuesdays and Fridays only, which went to Tomlinson Travel. Tomlinson Travel pulled out saying the passenger numbers were too low and Cheshire East (who had now taken over from Cheshire County Council) cancelled the contract and arranged for the 289 Northwich-Knutsford-Mere-Altrincham service to be re-routed to serve High Legh. At that time there was also a bus war between Warrington Borough Transport and Warrington Coachways between Altrincham and Warrington and the Warrington Coachways service served High Legh. At that point Warrington Council decided there should be a replacement Tuesday and Friday Lymm-Latchford-Warrington service to compensate and so Warrington Borough Transport started operating that as the 47. Then when Warrington Coachways stopped operating bus services Cheshire East decided it could find funding for the 47 to be extended to High Legh.
Then as part as the bus review last year the Altrincham to Knutsford part of the 289 service was withdrawn and the token Mon-Fri 47 service came in to operation to replace the 289, otherwise Broomedge, Bucklow Hill, Mere and High Legh wouldn't have had a bus service. If that had happened High Legh would have been the largest place in Cheshire East with no bus service at all. It seems the 47 timetable has been written so it can be operated by the same vehicle running a Lymm High School contract, presumably to save on costs. However, that comes at the price of not being able to do a Warrington to Knutsford return journey without changing at Lymm or there not being a bus service at suitable times for commuters.
Yet it goes close to one of the most visited tourist attractions in the North West (Tatton Park.) Also don't underestimate demand from Knutsford for public transport, for a town with just one train per hour the station is extremely busy and some of the services on the 88 bus route have more passengers than seats.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As I said, there are closer alternatives....like Altrincham.
Also, Knutsford ain’t that large either. Remember, the OP said “viable service” - that there might be demand but not enough to be viable are not mutually exclusive positions.
If high quality buses were used on a limited stop service and they ran at suitable times for commuters then it might be viable eventually, as buses should be able to get around Warrington quicker than cars due to the bus lanes. Knutsford isn't that large as you say so consequently a lot of people living in Knutsford don't work in Knutsford.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Not seeing it myself. It’s not the closest place to go to. Few places in between so limited market. Also, the population of Knutsford is also relatively small.
A demand may be there but viable without substantial support? I’m dubious
Northwich to Warrington has struggled enough to sustain a service and that has a much larger potential customer base.
Northwich to Warrington has not struggled. The via Lostock Gralam 45 service is a lucrative flow which is why GHA Coaches started a bus war on it, the via Anderton 46 service is not profitable partly because there's an alternative more frequent Arriva service serving Barnton and it's slower than Warrington via Lostock Gralam. Northwich is further from Warrington than Knutsford so the larger population is probably off-set by the longer journey times. After all Knutsford has a lot more Manchester commuters who travel by rail than Northwich.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Sorry but I used to live in Northwich. End to end flows have struggled - hence the raft of amendments and changes over the years. Yes, it does benefit from some substantial flows within the town (that doubtless prompted GHA to take on a lacklustre Warrington Buses) and those former villages now subsumed into the town like Barnton - something that Knutsford doesn’t have.
Knutsford probably does have more Manchester commuters and that probably indicates something. That GHA didn’t go for Warrington to Knutsford likewise, yet were prepared to take on the 82 - tells you something.
So you'll remember when North Western took over Starline Travel in the 90s and rebranded the Mercedes minibuses as Valeline and ran a service every 10 minutes to both Weaverham and Barnton. Was it any surprise that Warrington Borough Transport didn't carry many passengers between Northwich and Barnton and played around with their routes?
Plus the fact GHA had a depot in Tarvin and the fact Arriva had been running a regular Chester-Northwich service which had healthy patronage but Arriva decided it didn't quite make enough to be able to continue operating commercially. The fact that GHA took on the 88 route when, at the time, they didn't have a depot near the route, says a lot more than the fact they took on the 82.
Also don't forget GHA weren't interested in running Warrington to Altrincham when Warrington Coachways collapsed but decided to take on the 45 route a few months later. They were reportedly interested in trying to buy Warrington Borough Transport so were more interested in starting a bus war against WBT on a route where there was money to be made, than starting a new route which would partly have duplicated their own 289 service and required them to build up patronage themselves.
Note as I said in my earlier posts I said I think Warrington to Knutsford limited stop could be viable eventually if the timings were right, not that it would be viable from day 1.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I arrived just after StarLine had sold out to British Bus! However, having left and returned, I was there when Arriva pulled the 82.
Don't want to labour the point but Knutsford has a train station (popular with commuters) and is closer to Altrincham than Warrington. It has a relatively small population (c.13k) and there are only two settlements of any size in Mere and High Legh. So limited customer base that is already fragmented (e.g. rail commuters to Manchester, et al) or have closer alternative traffic objectives (e.g. Altrincham) and little intermediate traffic in one of the most well-heeled areas of the North West.
I just don't think it would work. Sorry
Don't want to labour the point but Knutsford has a train station (popular with commuters) and is closer to Altrincham than Warrington. It has a relatively small population (c.13k) and there are only two settlements of any size in Mere and High Legh. So limited customer base that is already fragmented (e.g. rail commuters to Manchester, et al) or have closer alternative traffic objectives (e.g. Altrincham) and little intermediate traffic in one of the most well-heeled areas of the North West.
I just don't think it would work. Sorry
Looking at actual UK traffic count data, the average number of daily car journeys between Knutsford and both Altrincham and Warrington is consistently over 6,000 per day, while driving time is about 20 minutes to Altrincham and 30 minutes to Warrington (according to Google Maps). Those figures suggest that demand for road travel on both routes is about the same, and that an equal service level of public transport should therefore be viable on both routes.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ahem..... population of Knutsford is about 13,000. Using those figures in the manner you have suggests no one is left in the town during the day.
Surely to be successful, you need unique selling points. Such as a luxury type of bus (air con, comfortable seats, adequate legroom, all buses in common livery etc), a route meeting unmet need with strategic destinations (such as hospitals, universities, stations, Bluewater type shopping centres), a route that is as quick and convenient as a car (such as good use of bus lanes, and few, but strategically placed stops), and just as importantly good publicity. Publicity means timetables and maps readily available on paper and on line, a good twitter or facebook account to update any delays, bad weather etc, and online tracking of the bus so you know how long you have to wait and where your bus is.
Not cheap, but if you want to do it succesfully, you do need to do it properly.
Not cheap, but if you want to do it succesfully, you do need to do it properly.
"Between" means total of both directions, all day.
The A50 goes through Knutsford town centre. If you're going from Warrington to Macclesfield, for example, by car you go through Knutsford.
Off the top of my head I know people who commute TO Knutsford from Manchester, Altrincham, Hale, Didsbury, Salford, Wigan, Leigh, Lymm, Warrington, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Middlewich, Winsford, Northwich, Delamere, Holmes Chapel, Nantwich, Crewe, Stoke, Prestbury and Lostock Gralam.
It worth noting most shop and cafe workers in Knutsford live outside the town and most Knutsford Academy pupils aren't from Knutsford.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That wasn’t what was said
That’s my point. The data is a very crude measure and shows x number of traffic movements between two points - not the origin nor ultimate destination.
As I’ve said before, will there be demand? I freely concede there will. Will it be viable - almost certainly not; after all, are Knutsford to Altrincham or Macc commercially viable?
Knutsford to Macc did operate as a commercial service under both High Peak and GHA and after GHA went bust while it was contracted the subsidy value for that section is very low.
There isn't a direct Knutsford to Altrincham bus and we've got no idea which parts of the Northern network need subsides and which parts don't but both Knutsford and Altrincham get very high rail usage for stations with only an hourly service, in fact Knutsford and Hale combined get more usage than all stations between Middlewood and Buxton combined and that's before you consider how many use Altrincham (for rail.)
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