Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[MML]

Does anyone know what it was? The National Rail site isn't telling.

1646 Sutton to St Albans was the train. Incident was reported as having taken place at St Pancras but the empty unit was parked in platform 3 at Kentish Town with what looked like a crowded platform of disembarked passengers. But I don't know the root cause.

 

[MML]

Station announcer at Gatport Airwick repeating multiple times 'this service will operate via London St Pancreas'
I think he came from a medical background

 

[class387]

Very chaotic at Potters Bar earlier. I got there as everyone on both the Peterborough and Welwyn services were kicked off and it into taxis. When I asked the gateline staff what happened she said that a train had broken down and all lines were blocked. As I didn't believe one broken down train could block all four lines, I went onto platform four and asked the driver of the Welwyn train. He was very helpful and explained that there was a train broken down on the down fast but there were trains stacked on the slows as well, which I found confusing. Just as I said this the signal turned green. I managed to run down the platform and by holding the door open (first time I've done this) got some people on the train. However there was absolutely no information at all from the station staff.

Very poor communication.

 

[Silver Cobra]

NRE states that the 1442 service from Kings Cross to Kings Lynn broke down just south of Knebworth, and all northbound services are being diverted via Hertford North. I assume that means it likely broke down in the 2-track section between Welwyn North and Woolmer Green junction.

**EDIT: RTT shows that this service did not pass Woolmer Green junction, so it did break down within the 2-track section.

 

[uglymonkey]

Is part of the problem that the units, since the new timetable are running more miles(Or being used for longer during the day)? resulting in more accumulated breakdowns? ( I don't know if they run more miles now since May , just asking). I guess on a double track line with a failed unit, its the worse possible place to breakdown, as you can't "go round it"- amazed just for a brake pipe fault it took over 2 hours to get it moving, couldn't a preceding or behind unit just buffer up to it and take it past the double track section, so that's its only blocking one line out of 4? However I bet all the different units don't have compatible couplings? could a 365, tow a 313 or 700 or vice versa? What about the alleged "Thunderbird" loco at KC? One fault anywhere on the Thameslink network - north or south of the river seems to create meltdown across all of it.

 

[Downthelane]

A permanent Thunderbird at WGC would seems to make a lot of sense. Plenty of stored traction that could be dusted down and used to supplement the 67 at KGX and whatever is spare at Peterborough. This approach appears seems to work on on Sodor.

 

[Aictos]

Is part of the problem that the units, since the new timetable are running more miles(Or being used for longer during the day)? resulting in more accumulated breakdowns? ( I don't know if they run more miles now since May , just asking). I guess on a double track line with a failed unit, its the worse possible place to breakdown, as you can't "go round it"- amazed just for a brake pipe fault it took over 2 hours to get it moving, couldn't a preceding or behind unit just buffer up to it and take it past the double track section, so that's its only blocking one line out of 4? However I bet all the different units don't have compatible couplings? could a 365, tow a 313 or 700 or vice versa? What about the alleged "Thunderbird" loco at KC? One fault anywhere on the Thameslink network - north or south of the river seems to create meltdown across all of it.

Just to point out a few things:

1. Brake defects can take time to resolve depending on what the actual fault is.

2. Even if said unit was available, there's no saying it might transfer the fault to the assisting unit as has happened in the past and will in the future.

3. Said unit might not even be available.

4. A Class 313 and a Class 365 do share the same coupling type so can couple mechanically as can a Class 313 to a Class 317 etc, I believe they use a emergency braking hose which is kept in the vestibule of the Class 313 however the Class 700 as well as the Class 387 has a different coupling type to the Class 313/365 so would need a emergency coupling and braking hose.

5. Said equipment might have to come by road and the team could have been held up in traffic, it's not like they can have flashing lights to ensure people move out of the way.

6. The Thunderbird at Kings Cross would only be useful if LNER had a driver available and GTR were willing to pay LNER for the hiring of the Thunderbird and Driver, remember they are different companies so unless LNER got paid for the hiring of their resources they're unlikely to do anything.

7. It also depends on where the train broke down as that could make access very difficult for these trying to resolve the issue.

 

[Downthelane]

6. The Thunderbird at Kings Cross would only be useful if LNER had a driver available and GTR were willing to pay LNER for the hiring of the Thunderbird and Driver, remember they are different companies so unless LNER got paid for the hiring of their resources they're unlikely to do anything.

Then let Network Rail hire drivers and take the responsibility of Thunderbird duties. Charge LNER and GN for cover from 04.00-21.00 regardless of callouts. By suggesting the two principal operators are responsible for making this work misses the point, they will never agree and hence get the Thunderbirds painted yellow and avoid the chaos we saw this afternoon.

 

[tsr]

A TL Class 700 failed in the Thursday evening peak at Woldingham. Allegedly it took about 3 minutes to work out it was a DSD failure, and about 35 minutes to isolate the fault and detrain the service... not great...

1. Brake defects can take time to resolve depending on what the actual fault is.

...but the above being said, it’s normally the diagnosis vice resolution that takes time, not that this really helps - unless it can be made quicker!

5. Said equipment might have to come by road and the team could have been held up in traffic, it's not like they can have flashing lights to ensure people move out of the way.

Emergency Intervention / Response Units are available in the London area and can operate on blue lights. These vehicles can carry emergency couplers if needed, and have done at least once or twice.

6. The Thunderbird at Kings Cross would only be useful if LNER had a driver available and GTR were willing to pay LNER for the hiring of the Thunderbird and Driver, remember they are different companies so unless LNER got paid for the hiring of their resources they're unlikely to do anything.

Don’t forget the ECML thunderbirds are quite unlikely to be permitted locos for the TL Core. Plus GTR have their own Thunderbird Class 73 anyway.

 

[Downthelane]

Where is the GTR 73 located? I didn't know they GTR had one, are there any stats on its frequently of use?

However that fact makes it even more odd that there has never been one positioned on GN.

How many stored ED's are there?

 

[whoosh]

A class 313 can assist a class 365 and vice versa. It requires a switch to be turned in the cab of the 365 being coupled.

Class 387s and Class 700s both have Dellner couplers, but the electrical box is slung underneath the mechanical coupler, rather than above, on a 387 to not foul the corridor connection (you know, the ones that aren't used anymore).

Drivers have not been trained on assistance or even normal coupling in multiple on class 700s, so these will always require the presence of a fitter in such circumstances - one of which occurred a couple of months ago outside Cambridge.

 

[dk1]

Both Northern & GTR are in the mid 90s on PPM performance this morning

 

[Failed Unit]

Both Northern & GTR are in the mid 90s on PPM performance this morning

But before we celebrate. great northern still only running 50% of planned services. Which are still very empty compared to this time last year.

 

[dk1]

But before we celebrate. great northern still only running 50% of planned services. Which are still very empty compared to this time last year.

It's a start. The punters will all come back, they always do. Northern are striking to so less trains to clog up the network.

 

[OwenB]

It's a start. The punters will all come back, they always do. Northern are striking to so less trains to clog up the network.

I'll start using the trains at the weekend again when there's more than 1tph to where I want to go. I think many people feel the same, especially those who have no choice but to use the service during the week for work.

 

[Failed Unit]

Where is the GTR 73 located? I didn't know they GTR had one, are there any stats on its frequently of use?

However that fact makes it even more odd that there has never been one positioned on GN.

How many stored ED's are there?

Be interesting to see how recovery works once the IEPs are in service. At the moment it is Sod’s law that if a unit fails it will be a HsT behind.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's a start. The punters will all come back, they always do. Northern are striking to so less trains to clog up the network.

Just hope they can get back to 2tph before Christmas. Yes I am using it today. But more because of lack of choice (work). I don’t travel at the weekend for leisure anymore. I don’t do the activity now. But when they can reliably operate the timetabled service I will be back as you say. Most of the people I suspect will have forgotten about this by this time next year. (Assuming the timetable is reliably operating). However I suspect after 3 years of poor performance at weekends not many will want to retain GTR.

 

[dk1]

Just hope they can get back to 2tph before Christmas. Yes I am using it today. But more because of lack of choice (work). I don’t travel at the weekend for leisure anymore. I don’t do the activity now. But when they can reliably operate the timetabled service I will be back as you say. Most of the people I suspect will have forgotten about this by this time next year. (Assuming the timetable is reliably operating). However I suspect after 3 years of poor performance at weekends not many will want to retain GTR.

Have GTR made any announcement of when it will be increased or are they waiting for the December GBTT change?

 

[Aictos]

...but the above being said, it’s normally the diagnosis vice resolution that takes time, not that this really helps - unless it can be made quicker!

Indeed what about that Grand Central Class 180 recently that failed on the ECML and when they had a second Class 180 couple up to assist the failure, the fault then transferred to the assisting unit.

Hence why I mentioned the resolution can take time just as much as the initial diagnosis can.

Emergency Intervention / Response Units are available in the London area and can operate on blue lights. These vehicles can carry emergency couplers if needed, and have done at least once or twice.

In the London area yes but Welwyn is not in the London area so would they be dispatched outside of the London area?

Don’t forget the ECML thunderbirds are quite unlikely to be permitted locos for the TL Core. Plus GTR have their own Thunderbird Class 73 anyway.

Indeed but think on how long it would take for the Class 73 to get from Farringdon to Welwyn GC, it's far better keeping it in the vicinity of the Core then have it operate away from it.

Then let Network Rail hire drivers and take the responsibility of Thunderbird duties. Charge LNER and GN for cover from 04.00-21.00 regardless of callouts. By suggesting the two principal operators are responsible for making this work misses the point, they will never agree and hence get the Thunderbirds painted yellow and avoid the chaos we saw this afternoon.

Actually LNER and GTR would and have been able to agree as in the past as been noted here the Bounds Green Class 08 has been used to rescue a Class 700 that was stranded due to OHL issues as well in the past when the IC operator at the time hired out their Kings Cross Thunderbird to First Capital Connect to drag some stranded units again from Kings Cross so it's in their best interests to work together which they do with ticket acceptance but that's another point.

I'm not just suggesting the two main operators take responsibility, I'm stating it as a example as it's no different to anywhere else in the country.

 

[jon0844]

In the London area yes but Welwyn is not in the London area so would they be dispatched outside of the London area?

When the 180 caught fire at Welwyn North, fitters from GWR were blue-lighted all the way there to assist.

 

[Failed Unit]

Have GTR made any announcement of when it will be increased or are they waiting for the December GBTT change?

No. Some of the peak services return at the end of the month.

The rest “when sufficient resources are available”. Would be nice if that was December but I am sure the GTR staff on here may know. But no idea is the answer for us users. I will ask at the meet the manager session.

Not bothered to be honest about 4 tph to Moorgate. But going back to 2 tph into kings cross would be nice. Not sure if people are bothered nothing runs into the core at weekends from GN. I guess the Thameslink side would like the pre May frequency back as well.

 

[jon0844]

4 trains per hour to Moorgate was likely overkill, but certainly useful for a turn up and go service, on weekends - but 2 trains is workable. To be honest, just having three trains per hour off-peak in the week is managing okay.

But the 1tph service to/from King's Cross is unacceptable. It's not that services are ram packed (even Jeremy Corbyn could get a seat!) but rather that such an infrequent service really messes up your plans. Plus you only need once cancellation for it to become a two hour gap, which is totally unacceptable.

Sunday's will always have the problem of rest day working, but Saturday should be something that isn't impossible to fix.

 

[Aictos]

When the 180 caught fire at Welwyn North, fitters from GWR were blue-lighted all the way there to assist.

That I didn't know, I thought it was only within London that they could do this?

 

[OwenB]

But the 1tph service to/from King's Cross is unacceptable. It's not that services are ram packed (even Jeremy Corbyn could get a seat!) but rather that such an infrequent service really messes up your plans. Plus you only need once cancellation for it to become a two hour gap, which is totally unacceptable

Spot on. Either get to your destination ridiculously early or risk being very late.

 

[Skimble19]

No. Some of the peak services return at the end of the month.

The rest “when sufficient resources are available”. Would be nice if that was December but I am sure the GTR staff on here may know. But no idea is the answer for us users. I will ask at the meet the manager session.

Not bothered to be honest about 4 tph to Moorgate. But going back to 2 tph into kings cross would be nice. Not sure if people are bothered nothing runs into the core at weekends from GN. I guess the Thameslink side would like the pre May frequency back as well.

Should point out for the GN side the amount of services being reintroduced soon is very, very minimal. Nothing on the Peterborough route at all.

 

[jon0844]

I believe route learning through the core has now begun, at least for Cambridge drivers.

 

[Failed Unit]

Should point out for the GN side the amount of services being reintroduced soon is very, very minimal. Nothing on the Peterborough route at all.

That is my understanding as well. 4 trains.

0655 Cambridge- London
0836 London. - WGC
1702 WGC - London
1751 London - Cambridge.

So 2 high peak services back - which were among the busiest in the pre-May timetable.

Nothing off peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where is the GTR 73 located? I didn't know they GTR had one, are there any stats on its frequently of use?

GTR having a 73 doesn’t necessarily mean it’s intended for day to day use as a “thunderbird”, does it?SWT also had a couple of them for years without much obvious rescue use.

 

[jon0844]

GTR having a 73 doesn’t necessarily mean it’s intended for day to day use as a “thunderbird”, does it?SWT also had a couple of them for years without much obvious rescue use.

One train isn't going to be that much use for such a large network. To rescue the broken down train (a 387 I presume it was?), it would have needed to go via the Hertford Loop and come back down (up) as the down lines would have already been full up with queuing trains.

It may be why they got fitters out ASAP to try and fix the issue and get it moving under its own power.

It would certainly make sense for Network Rail to manage the rescue trains, although I am sure LNER would have assisted as the problem must have impacted its own services - going via Hertford in the peak can't be good for timekeeping.

 

[Surreytraveller]

GTR have their own Thunderbird Class 73 anyway.

Do any drivers sign it anymore?