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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Aictos

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It would certainly make sense for Network Rail to manage the rescue trains, although I am sure LNER would have assisted as the problem must have impacted its own services - going via Hertford in the peak can't be good for timekeeping.

Especially as being diverted via Hertford adds 20 minutes to the journey, even longer if you're lucky enough to be following a all stations stopper...

The 20 minute penalty though could be eased if only the required infrastructure work was done specifically the long signal sections north of Hertford.
 
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bramling

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Especially as being diverted via Hertford adds 20 minutes to the journey, even longer if you're lucky enough to be following a all stations stopper...

The 20 minute penalty though could be eased if only the required infrastructure work was done specifically the long signal sections north of Hertford.

I thought that was dealt with as part of the ETCS resignalling? I could be wrong though.

Certainly on simsig the long sections are a pain in the backside.
 

Aictos

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I thought that was dealt with as part of the ETCS resignalling? I could be wrong though.

Certainly on simsig the long sections are a pain in the backside.

As far as I am aware the ETCS signalling between Langley Junction and Hertford was only used for testing purposes when Network Rail's pet Class 313 was operating in the section with the signalling controlled from Hitchin.

If you look at Open Train Times and specificially on the Kings Cross to Hitchin map you can see the two buttons which state when the system is in Normal or ERMTS use.

And yes the long sections are a pain in the backside in real life too, I don't expect any improvements to happen though until the national roll out of ERMTS is done post 2020 between London and York.
 

tsr

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Indeed what about that Grand Central Class 180 recently that failed on the ECML and when they had a second Class 180 couple up to assist the failure, the fault then transferred to the assisting unit.

Hence why I mentioned the resolution can take time just as much as the initial diagnosis can.

That incident was unusually protracted and involved a combination of other factors including a lack of suitable opportunities to work the stock back to a berthing point, a complete failure of GC to deploy fitters, and so on.

A sizeable proportion of the first part of the delay (before failed rescue attempts) was due to the poor driver having to constantly fault-find, so I’m not sure your point stands anyway.

In the London area yes but Welwyn is not in the London area so would they be dispatched outside of the London area?

It very much depends on area, but it’s routinely done in Kent and Sussex, which have their own EIUs, and other resources could be sent to Welwyn if needed.

Indeed but think on how long it would take for the Class 73 to get from Farringdon to Welwyn GC, it's far better keeping it in the vicinity of the Core then have it operate away from it.

It is mostly kept at Stewarts Lane, just outside the Core, pressures on the rest of the network being generally lower.

If GTR need to send a rescue loco then the 73 will be utilised in preference. If that’s not possible then attempts with another unit are probably more likely, by means of mechanical coupling instead of full electrical coupling.

GTR having a 73 doesn’t necessarily mean it’s intended for day to day use as a “thunderbird”, does it?SWT also had a couple of them for years without much obvious rescue use.

The GTR 73 is mainly intended to be used as a Thunderbird, although it saw more use when the 442s were in service (or, shall we say, attempting to be in service).

Do any drivers sign it anymore?

They do indeed. Various managers and senior Norwood depot drivers, for the most part.
 

Bedpan

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It is mostly kept at Stewarts Lane, just outside the Core, pressures on the rest of the network being generally lower.
Bearing in mind that a lot of the failures seem to occur in the core, wouldn't it be sensible to berth it in Smithfield Sidings?
 

jamesthegill

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Bearing in mind that a lot of the failures seem to occur in the core, wouldn't it be sensible to berth it in Smithfield Sidings?

There isn't the room there. The two sidings are 8 car and are used for berthing in times of disruption - storing a Thunderbird there would occupy the track circuit and immediately halve the number of sidings available, especially as the 73 is seldom used as a rescue train.
 

bramling

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As far as I am aware the ETCS signalling between Langley Junction and Hertford was only used for testing purposes when Network Rail's pet Class 313 was operating in the section with the signalling controlled from Hitchin.

If you look at Open Train Times and specificially on the Kings Cross to Hitchin map you can see the two buttons which state when the system is in Normal or ERMTS use.

And yes the long sections are a pain in the backside in real life too, I don't expect any improvements to happen though until the national roll out of ERMTS is done post 2020 between London and York.

As part of the ETCS the whole section was completely resignalled, which includes normal working as well as ETCS testing. There’s a few other enhancements like the extra crossover at Hertford North.

Looking at the OTT map there’s a fair few more signals there now compared to before on both roads, so I think that answers the question.

Certainly it doesn’t seem to be the bottleneck it once was. Having said that, get rid of one constraint and replace it with another, namely the 4tph instead of 3tph - although to be fair I wouldn’t advocate cutting the normal service just to better facilitate unplanned diversions.
 

ijmad

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There isn't the room there. The two sidings are 8 car and are used for berthing in times of disruption - storing a Thunderbird there would occupy the track circuit and immediately halve the number of sidings available, especially as the 73 is seldom used as a rescue train.

How much work would be needed to allow a 700 to push or pull a second unit while both are in passenger service (until the next station or siding)?
 

Failed Unit

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How much work would be needed to allow a 700 to push or pull a second unit while both are in passenger service (until the next station or siding)?

I guess it is very possible. The 365s have done it. Formed a 16 unit. They unloaded at WGC (next station). Front 8 then rear 8.
 

jon0844

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I guess it is very possible. The 365s have done it. Formed a 16 unit. They unloaded at WGC (next station). Front 8 then rear 8.

There's a YouTube video somewhere with a 24 coach 700 I think.

Talking of 700s, three units in the WGC carriage sidings got hit last night with graffiti and all three have had paint on the front covering the top lights. Can a 700 operate without the cyclops light working? If not, assuming they're not cleaned today, it could cause some issues tomorrow morning.
 

hwl

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How much work would be needed to allow a 700 to push or pull a second unit while both are in passenger service (until the next station or siding)?
Virtually none - it was part of the spec. The (auto) coupling is mechanical and air only so one unit is powered during the pull or push.
The spec requires a half dead 8car (700s are effectively 2 half units) to be able to pull or push a fully dead 12 car up the steepest gradients at City TL.

They should be fine with 377s and 387s too.
 

westcoaster

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There's a YouTube video somewhere with a 24 coach 700 I think.

Talking of 700s, three units in the WGC carriage sidings got hit last night with graffiti and all three have had paint on the front covering the top lights. Can a 700 operate without the cyclops light working? If not, assuming they're not cleaned today, it could cause some issues tomorrow morning.
As they have the yellow panel they should be ok to run in service, (if it were 717 with no yellow panel, they need the Cyclops light to run).
 

ijmad

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So that being the case, why isn't coupling up a standard operational procedure for failed 700s in the core?
 
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jon0844

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So that being the case, why isn't coupling up a standard operational procedure for failed 700s in the core?

Isn't there dual redundancy to prevent the need for coupling in most cases? I assume the intention is to couple as a last resort, but the usual problem will be the time taken to try other solutions and hindsight suggesting it would have been quicker to just push or pull a train instead.
 

Bedpan

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Crikey, things must be good this morning. There hasn't been a single post on here today, and it's almost 11 o'clock!
 

ijmad

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Crikey, things must be good this morning. There hasn't been a single post on here today, and it's almost 11 o'clock!

PPM's better than London Overground and TfL Rail so far today :E
 

MML

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I love the new cheery on train announcements. It says about the Brighton mainline improvement project and in the next sentence, informs there will be no trains.

Now I know the reason for no trains is to perform engineering work which will eventually provide improved reliability.
But it just sounds funny to your average commuter to hear improvement and then no trains. No trains is hardly an improvement is it.
A bit like stating we're going to improve road safety by banning the use of cars.
 

700007

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I love the new cheery on train announcements. It says about the Brighton mainline improvement project and in the next sentence, informs there will be no trains.

Now I know the reason for no trains is to perform engineering work which will eventually provide improved reliability.
But it just sounds funny to your average commuter to hear improvement and then no trains. No trains is hardly an improvement is it.
A bit like stating we're going to improve road safety by banning the use of cars.
Is it done by the same person that does the 'See it, say it, sorted' and 'Please mind the gap' announcements?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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DfT has published the meeting papers of the Thameslink Industry Readiness Board, in the form of a Freedom of Information Request response (ie with redactions).
This was promised during the parliamentary committee hearings.
So we can all now crawl over the entrails of the planning for the disastrous May timetable change.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thameslink-industry-readiness-board-meeting-papers

It's impossible to extract a pithy quote.
The traffic light data of the Independent Assurance Panel is a start.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...nel-operational-readiness-review-may-2018.pdf
 

MML

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Is it done by the same person that does the 'See it, say it, sorted' and 'Please mind the gap' announcements?
Thankfully no. Neither the constipated Dalek from the see it, say it, sort it nor the awful American or was it Canadian accent announcing the infamous Railplan 2020.

This chap sounds quite upbeat and cheerful, albeit announcing the route improvement with no trains.

I still find the see it, say it, sort it graphic rather sinister. With typical type casting of a young lady being in the presence of an uncouth gentleman. Worst of all when the half hourly announcement obliterates the more useful calling pattern PA.
 

RichardN

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DfT has published the meeting papers of the Thameslink Industry Readiness Board, in the form of a Freedom of Information Request response (ie with redactions).
This was promised during the parliamentary committee hearings.
So we can all now crawl over the entrails of the planning for the disastrous May timetable change.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thameslink-industry-readiness-board-meeting-papers

It's impossible to extract a pithy quote.
The traffic light data of the Independent Assurance Panel is a start.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...nel-operational-readiness-review-may-2018.pdf

Fascinating reading. Even the reasons for some of the redactions are interesting in themselves.
 

tsr

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Just for everyone's information - unfortunately both lines through Loughborough Junction station, as well as the adjacent Up/Down Atlantic Lines, are closed until further notice due to a major power cable fire in a structure just south of the station.

Network Rail and UK Power Networks have had some confusion over whose cable it actually is, and it also seems to have taken quite a while to switch it off. In the mean time the fire has spread and now a lot of cable and structural assets need to be checked and made safe. The situation has been going on for some time, on-and-off (pardon the pun) since mid-morning.

TL trains are being amended/diverted on routes which would normally run via Herne Hill. Some are being diverted to locations such as East Croydon etc.

(I still don't get quite how NR take so long to respond to electrical incidents in the busy South London area, which relies on complex electrified railways to move a good number of people around. Their response times are for that sort of thing are regularly twice or three times as long as other NR response teams such as MOMs (which are, contrary to common belief, quite thinly spread, albeit not really in the area in question) or the "Off Track" staff who deal with boundary fencing, trees and other lineside issues.)

I still find the see it, say it, sort it graphic rather sinister. With typical type casting of a young lady being in the presence of an uncouth gentleman. Worst of all when the half hourly announcement obliterates the more useful calling pattern PA.

The thing is truly dystopian and removes all credibility. There's a significant amount of eye-rolling when that message and accompanying crackly audio turns up at 25/55 past the hour on every Class 700 in the peak hours. It really can't be doing much for what is, ultimately, a worthwhile cause.
 

jon0844

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I think whoever did the artwork for the security poster (actually there are other designs/scenarios but this always seems to be favoured) was a big fan of the Equalizer in the 1980s.
 

BRX

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All lines have now reopened at Loughborough Jn and on the Up/Down Atlantic.
Seems all to have stopped again. There are a load of police cars and 'emergency intervention unit' vehicle outside LJ station. Train stationary on the platform. It all seems to have stopped on the Atlantic lines too, with a train sitting on the up line just by cambria junction.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Seems all to have stopped again. There are a load of police cars and 'emergency intervention unit' vehicle outside LJ station. Train stationary on the platform. It all seems to have stopped on the Atlantic lines too, with a train sitting on the up line just by cambria junction.
Has the route been re-opened yet?
 

Carlisle

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(I still don't get quite how NR take so long to respond to electrical incidents in the busy South London area, which relies on complex electrified railways to move a good number of people around. Their response times are for that sort of thing are regularly twice or three times as long as other NR response teams such as MOMs (which are, contrary to common belief, quite thinly spread, albeit not really in the area in question) or the "Off Track" staff who deal with boundary fencing, trees and other lineside issues.
If it’s still similar to BR days, power supply engineers are usually based at the major electric control rooms, which are more thinly spread than they once were .
 

tsr

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Seems all to have stopped again. There are a load of police cars and 'emergency intervention unit' vehicle outside LJ station. Train stationary on the platform. It all seems to have stopped on the Atlantic lines too, with a train sitting on the up line just by cambria junction.

Was only shut for 20 minutes by the looks of things. The train in question (9O69 2015 to Sutton via Mitcham) was on its way at 2033.

Things took rather a turn for the worse between Denmark Hill and Clapham High St on the Atlantic Lines, near the earlier fire, due to previously unknown cable damage.

London Overground 9G49 1734 Dalston Jn - Clapham Jn became stranded away from stations for the whole night after the power supply voltage dropped from 750ish to 500, which meant it lost its ability to move and eventually meant that basically all the electronics died.

After about 3 and a half hours, with a rescue train having also lost power, the passengers were removed in a side-to-side evacuation and supplied with medical treatment and assistance at Denmark Hill. The failed train was not fully clear of the route until about 0830 this morning, in part due to the stranded train having to be resurrected, which took a very long time. By this point, cable repairs had long been completed and the line could reopen when the stock was gone.
 

Failed Unit

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As some of you may know - we had a meet the manager session at Kings Cross today.

GTR managers were not really wanting to answer the question "When will you start running trains at weekends?"

I got many sound bites such as.
"4 Extra peak trains will be running at the end of the month" - great but that isn't the weekend
"We would rather give you a 1 train per hour service at the weekend you can rely on rather than the full timetable which you can't" - great but we can't rely on the weekend service and often have large gaps.
"We have managed to run several days recently at a PPM of 90% or more" - Wonderful - you are back at pre-May levels - this should be the normal not the exception.

They did say that people South of the Thames use Southern now so you have overcrowded southern services and nearly empty Thameslink ones as no-body trusts Thameslink.

However they did say they hoped (and this is not a commitment) that the full May timetable will be running by the December timetable change and that they expect the increase in services planned in May 2019 to take place (such as the WGC - Sevenoaks via core service)

We will see. It did amaze me how they avoided answering a simple question and needed Jeremy Paxman style probing to get the "December" maybe answer.
 
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