Birmingham to Northampton

[Aictos]

I'm trying to help a neighbour book a return ticket from Birmingham New Street to Northampton leaving on the 1st October between 12pm and 2pm then returning on the 4th October anytime - I can find fares at £19.70 but are there ANY cheaper fares that people here can suggest at all?

There are no railcards being used with the tickets, I have tried splitting it myself but I'm not sure if it's possible or where the best station is to split such a journey.

Any help will be greatly received!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the cheapest through fare. You could use trainsplit.com or similar to see what splits there might be?

 

[gordonthemoron]

trainsplit doesn't give any splits though

 

[Bletchleyite]

trainsplit doesn't give any splits though

Possibly there aren't any that would be cheaper then.

I did look at LNR Only fares to MKC which are cheaper but these bar break of journey so cannot be used for this purpose.

 

[Hadders]

Is an Anytime ticket really required. The evening off peak restrictions from New Street are easy to circumnavigate using an appropriate off peak ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is an Anytime ticket really required. The evening off peak restrictions from New Street are easy to circumnavigate using an appropriate off peak ticket.

£19.70 is the Off Peak. The Anytime Day Return bizarrely costs the same.

 

[Hadders]

£19.70 is the Off Peak. The Anytime Day Return bizarrely costs the same.

Ah, i should’ve looked the fares up!

 

[Aictos]

£19.70 is the Off Peak. The Anytime Day Return bizarrely costs the same.

Thanks all, it's just I wasn't sure if the fare could be split at Rugby for example or not.

I did look up the fare on Sunday and it was £16.00 using the same date/times so why is it more expensive?

No idea why the Off Peak Return and the Anytime Day Return though costs the same as you think the latter would be more pricy...

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNR do offer Advance fares on some trains, perhaps there were Advances then and they are now all sold?

 

[JB_B]

A SVR from Stechford to Northampton is valid via Birmingham - that's £17.70

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SCF&dest=NMP&tkt=SVR

 

[Aictos]

A SVR from Stechford to Northampton is valid via Birmingham - that's £17.70

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SCF&dest=NMP&tkt=SVR

Does that mean they can come back within the month though of the outward journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean they can come back within the month though of the outward journey?

Yes, it does.

 

[Aictos]

A SVR from Stechford to Northampton is valid via Birmingham - that's £17.70

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SCF&dest=NMP&tkt=SVR

Brilliant, thank you!

Yes, it does.

Brilliant, thank you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Er, hang on a minute...that's a double back and therefore NOT valid - or is there an easement?

 

[JB_B]

Er, hang on a minute...that's a double back and therefore NOT valid - or is there an easement?

There's no double back when tracing the mapped portion of the journey (which is Birmingham Group to Northampton.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no double back when tracing the mapped portion of the journey (which is Birmingham Group to Northampton.)

Doesn't the fares rule take Birmingham out as a valid RP, then?

It strikes me that there is no reason why that ticket should be valid now I've remembered where Stechford is, and I would expect it highly likely to be questioned.

EDIT: NRE gives it as valid! However I would still expect it to be questioned.

 

[JB_B]

Doesn't the fares rule take Birmingham out as a valid RP, then?

I think Birmingham Group passes the fares check as an origin RP/G.

Evaluating origin routeing point BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) and destination routeing point NORTHAMPTON (NMP) for journey from STECHFORD (SCF) to NORTHAMPTON (NMP) matching route 00000 .
Applying fare-check to org routeing point member BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET (BHM)
The CDS fare from SCF to NMP (£6.90) is equal to the CDS fare from BHM to NMP (£6.90) Therefore BHM / NMP is accepted (quality: good).
Routeing points BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) to NORTHAMPTON (NMP) pass fare-check.

It strikes me that there is no reason why that ticket should be valid now I've remembered where Stechford is, and I would expect it highly likely to be questioned.

EDIT: NRE gives it as valid! However I would still expect it to be questioned.

It doesn't look particularly unreasonable to me but I suppose there's no harm in the OP's neighbour taking an itinerary with them.

AFAIK there is no general 'no double back' rule. You can't double back when tracing the mapped part of journey (except where allowed by an easement or where allowed at an intermediate group by the group station rule.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd call it unreasonable because it's going north to go south on the same line with no benefit to doing so. The train you come back south on on any sensible itinerary stops there, so there is no reason to do it (VT to Rugby does not save any time), and the fare is lower than that from Birmingham, further confirming it was intended for it to be for a shorter journey.

Now this one has been highlighted I bet it'll be fixed soon

Carrying an itinerary would be a VERY good idea.

 

[Kite159]

I'd call it unreasonable because it's going north to go south on the same line with no benefit to doing so. The train you come back south on on any sensible itinerary stops there, so there is no reason to do it (VT to Rugby does not save any time), and the fare is lower than that from Birmingham, further confirming it was intended for it to be for a shorter journey.

Now this one has been highlighted I bet it'll be fixed soon

Carrying an itinerary would be a VERY good idea.

Agreed, especially if the gatelines at New Street are in operation as some of the staff are not necessary the best in all things tickets (and will see the destination as Stechford and will claim it isn't valid as "it's further along the line".

Maybe it would be worth avoiding the Birmingham service which calls at Stechford from Northampton, also the one which is timed to be followed by the Birmingham International - New Street shuttle

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Now this has already been publicised, I would not be making any effort to choose specific trains just to please incompetent gatelines or guards/TMs. I would choose whatever train is most convenient to me! If a guard/TM/gateline member of staff is not prepared to learn the rules and to apply the rules, then they are in no position to make a judgment as to what is and isn't a valid ticket!

Having said that, I suspect this is something that might be difficult, or at the very least time consuming, to fix, as the SVR may be a regulated fare. Is it really worth the relevant pricing manager's hassle for the small amount it undercuts the Birmingham fare by?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now this has already been publicised, I would not be making any effort to choose specific trains just to please incompetent gatelines or guards/TMs. I would choose whatever train is most convenient to me! If a guard/TM/gateline member of staff is not prepared to learn the rules and to apply the rules, then they are in no position to make a judgment as to what is and isn't a valid ticket!

Having said that, I suspect this is something that might be difficult, or at the very least time consuming, to fix, as the SVR may be a regulated fare. Is it really worth the relevant pricing manager's hassle for the small amount it undercuts the Birmingham fare by?

Possibly not, though it could be fixed with a negative easement or similar, I guess?

 

[Kite159]

Now this has already been publicised, I would not be making any effort to choose specific trains just to please incompetent gatelines or guards/TMs.

Until you travel on the XX:55 departure from Northampton which calls at Stechford on route to New Street, at which point your Northampton - Stechford ticket becomes used up.

Chances are the ticket from Stechford won't even work the barriers at New Street

 

[kieron]

Possibly there aren't any that would be cheaper then.

I did look at LNR Only fares to MKC which are cheaper but these bar break of journey so cannot be used for this purpose.

They can if Class 403's neighbour can countenance the possibility of having to go via Milton Keynes on the way. In that situation, I'd certainly consider getting that ticket and asking if I can finish early at Northampton. I'd only do it if I had time to go the long way around, though. There's no break of journey restriction on the return, so you can certainly leave the station at Northampton once you get to that.

It's £15.60 for a super off peak return, so may be worth considering.

 

[Aictos]

They can if Class 403's neighbour can countenance the possibility of having to go via Milton Keynes on the way. In that situation, I'd certainly consider getting that ticket and asking if I can finish early at Northampton. I'd only do it if I had time to go the long way around, though. There's no break of journey restriction on the return, so you can certainly leave the station at Northampton once you get to that.

It's £15.60 for a super off peak return, so may be worth considering.

That ticket as it's routed Route WMR & LNR ONLY and as the train does call at Northampton, what's stopping my neighbour from leaving the train there and getting the train back to Birmingham from there?

Do they really have to go via Milton Keynes?

As to to small print, it says "Break of journey is not permitted on the outward
journey on any day except to change trains at and intermediate station or to
access station facilities." so if a passenger wants to get off and leave the station to have a smoke what's stopping them walking away from the station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until you travel on the XX:55 departure from Northampton which calls at Stechford on route to New Street, at which point your Northampton - Stechford ticket becomes used up.

Chances are the ticket from Stechford won't even work the barriers at New Street

NRE will give you an itinerary with that fare on which the train does call at Stechford, so you call there twice, ridiculously. This genuinely seems to be a loophole.

I do however think anyone trying this will get hassle, I wouldn't do it to save a few quid, the stress wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That ticket as it's routed Route WMR & LNR ONLY and as the train does call at Northampton, what's stopping my neighbour from leaving the train there and getting the train back to Birmingham from there?

Do they really have to go via Milton Keynes?

As to to small print, it says "Break of journey is not permitted on the outward
journey on any day except to change trains at and intermediate station or to
access station facilities." so if a passenger wants to get off and leave the station to have a smoke what's stopping them walking away from the station?

They are not allowed to leave the station to have a smoke; that (leaving Railway property) is a break of journey, at least under the most recent edition of the NRCoC/NRCoT that defined it. While this would tend not to be enforced, if they were *obviously* taking the mick it is quite likely they would not be allowed to pass the barrier. And I'd expect they are wise to it, as preventing this kind of use is precisely why these tickets have break of journey restrictions.

What they could do is be honest and ask staff if they don't mind them ending short at Northampton. If they did say no, then return to the platform, travel to MKC and back, and then break the return journey at Northampton which is permitted. Only works if they have time to do that, though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They are not allowed to leave the station to have a smoke; that (leaving Railway property) is a break of journey, at least under the most recent edition of the NRCoC/NRCoT that defined it. While this would tend not to be enforced, if they were *obviously* taking the mick it is quite likely they would not be allowed to pass the barrier. And I'd expect they are wise to it, as preventing this kind of use is precisely why these tickets have break of journey restrictions.

What they could do is be honest and ask staff if they don't mind them ending short at Northampton. If they did say no, then return to the platform, travel to MKC and back, and then break the return journey at Northampton which is permitted. Only works if they have time to do that, though.

And of course the barrier staff would be none the wiser - unless the passenger admits not having finished his outbound journey - as to whether or not the passenger has doubled back via MKC. They could present the return portion at the barriers and the barrier staff would have no idea the passenger had broken his journey where he was not entitled to do so.

To be quite honest, I think WMT should do away with the break of journey restrictions on these tickets - and at the very least on return tickets. It's simply infeasible to enforce the restrictions and the only "penalty" is having to pay the excess to the cheapest BoJ-permitting ticket (i.e. (Super) Off-Peak Any Permitted, or Anytime WMR/LNR only) and it would be a good example of true fares simplification.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Until you travel on the XX:55 departure from Northampton which calls at Stechford on route to New Street, at which point your Northampton - Stechford ticket becomes used up.

Chances are the ticket from Stechford won't even work the barriers at New Street

If there is a relevant "easement" (so-to-speak - not a Routeing Guide easement!) that permits you to go past your destination (as there is here, by virtue of the Routeing Point rule), your ticket does not become used up until either it expires through the effluxion of time, or you use the remaining validity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of course the barrier staff would be none the wiser - unless the passenger admits not having finished his outbound journey - as to whether or not the passenger has doubled back via MKC. They could present the return portion at the barriers and the barrier staff would have no idea the passenger had broken his journey where he was not entitled to do so.

The time of issue might well be a giveaway if it would make going to MKC and back impossible?

To be quite honest, I think WMT should do away with the break of journey restrictions on these tickets - and at the very least on return tickets. It's simply infeasible to enforce the restrictions and the only "penalty" is having to pay the excess to the cheapest BoJ-permitting ticket (i.e. (Super) Off-Peak Any Permitted, or Anytime WMR/LNR only) and it would be a good example of true fares simplification.

LM, of course, fixed the other place this issue existed (Bletchley) by reducing the Any Permitted fare, so there is precedent for them to fix it properly.

My personal view is that Break of Journey restrictions should be abolished on all walk-up tickets, there is really no actual need for it, it's pointless complication that in most cases isn't even enforced anyway. Equally, TOCs should not be regulated in the way that effectively mandates anomalies like Lancaster to exist.

 

[Kite159]

If there is a relevant "easement" (so-to-speak - not a Routeing Guide easement!) that permits you to go past your destination (as there is here, by virtue of the Routeing Point rule), your ticket does not become used up until either it expires through the effluxion of time, or you use the remaining validity.

So basically you can double back even when the ticket validity expires when the train calls at Stechford on the way into New Street

Good luck explaining that to the gateline staff at New Street when the ticket fails to operate the barriers and they query why you have overtravelled.

Although now that bug has come out, no doubt either the fare will increase to be the same as the fare to New Street or a negative easement put into place to prevent customers from doubling back via New Street