Did BR ever consider using the Scotrail MK3 Push/pull trains on other services?

[GrimShady]

Very fetching!

 

[montyburns56]

I found the article. 6 sets of 47/7 + DBSO were to be kept for a joint St Pancras - Kettering and Kings Cross - Peterborough peak pool.

The cost of keeping a small pool of incompatible stock killed the idea (the push-pull systems on 47/7 and DBSO were different to what was used on 86/87/90/91 & DVTs).

Plus NSE and Parcels wanted the long range 47/7 for west of England use.

Thanks dubscottie. It's interesting that they were planning to use them for KX services as my model is vaguely based on that station and it was seeing my Push/pull train sat in the station that inspired the question.

 

[montyburns56]

47713 went up in smoke as I recall. Wasn't there one more final converstion resulting in 47717 to replace 713?

More info here.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...rail-push-pull-operations-in-the-1980s/page-3

Some picture galleries.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151135632@N04/galleries/72157683868581784/

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2858153@N25/pool/with/23920890162/

Thanks for the links to the pictures, as I never realised that the Aberdeen trains used non-air con Mk2s.

Shove 47 At A Wet Stirling (Michael McNicholas) by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

Also this one is interesting
Gogar by Bob Avery, on Flickr

 

[GrimShady]

Thanks for the links to the pictures, as I never realised that the Aberdeen trains used non-air con Mk2s.

Shove 47 At A Wet Stirling (Michael McNicholas) by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

Also this one is interesting
Gogar by Bob Avery, on Flickr

The second one will be from when the ScR MK3 were being transferred away for refurb. Intercity MK3 were used in the interim.

 

[43096]

The original requirement for the Edinburgh - Glasgow service (on a thirty minute frequency) saw ten Class 47/4s converted to push-pull 47/7s (47701-47710), ten Mark 2F BSOs (9701-9710) converted to DBSOs and 35 Mark 3A vehicles transferred North (7 FOs, 11004-11010; 28 TSOs. 12004-12031). This gave seven sets (DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-47/7) with three spare DBSOs and locomotives.

Went through some old magazines earlier, and the ScotRail Mark 3 fleet as at Feb 1989 was 7 COs (11905-910/922) and 25 TSOs (12004/005/007/008/011-017/019-031/051).

Obviously 11004 and 12006 were scrapped after Polmont and 12018 was written off in an arson attack at Cowlairs in 1981. I assume that 11022 and 12051 transferred in at some point to replace those three vehicles. Which leaves 12009/010 - when did they go back to InterCity?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If the E&G had been electrified back then as he intended, one wonders what type of stock there could have been, Class 90s and MK3?

For such a short route? Unlikely. A 25kV 442 lookalike perhaps?

 

[GrimShady]

For such a short route? Unlikely. A 25kV 442 lookalike perhaps?

That would have been interesting, only drawback is development cost would have been higher than and extra production run of Mk3 DVTs and 90s which were being built at the time. Chris Green had originally planned for electrification in the late 80s.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Given the platform length restrictions at Queen Street I wonder if the use of DVTs would have been acceptable? In the grand scheme of things more likely that any new build 90s & DVTs would have gone to London-Norwich and E&G would have retained its LHCS but with 86/2s.

 

[GrimShady]

Given the platform length restrictions at Queen Street I wonder if the use of DVTs would have been acceptable? In the grand scheme of things more likely that any new build 90s & DVTs would have gone to London-Norwich and E&G would have retained its LHCS but with 86/2s.

Maybe so, there is the possibility that the DBSOs would have been kept. The other benefit would be interchangeable stock with the Aberdeen services which may have stayed 47/7 modified with TDM.

 

[GusB]

That would have been interesting, only drawback is development cost would have been higher than and extra production run of Mk3 DVTs and 90s which were being built at the time. Chris Green had originally planned for electrification in the late 80s.

Is it not more likely that the E&G services would have seen 365s (or some Networker variant) instead of loco hauled/shoved stock?

 

[GrimShady]

Is it not more likely that the E&G services would have seen 365s (or some Networker variant) instead of loco hauled/shoved stock?

What would you use for Aberdeen if that was the case? Surely better to have common fleet of passenger stock..just change the traction. Maybe the Norwich services would have received new EMUs instead. Remember in those days E&G was seen as an InterCity route, something which unfortunately changed.

 

[GusB]

What would you use for Aberdeen if that was the case? Surely better to have common fleet of passenger stock..just change the traction. Maybe the Norwich services would have received new EMUs instead. Remember in those days E&G was seen as an InterCity route, something which unfortunately changed.

You'd still have diesel traction on the Aberdeen's. If you had 90s on the E&G, they would have had to run as dedicated sets on that route anyway, so why not make them EMUs?

 

[GrimShady]

You'd still have diesel traction on the Aberdeen's. If you had 90s on the E&G, they would have had to run as dedicated sets on that route anyway, so why not make them EMUs?

Why would they have to run as dedicated sets?

EMUs would require building where as MK3 were already in place and available.

 

[GusB]

Why would the have to run as dedicated sets?

EMUs would require building where as MK3 was already in place and available.

Because 90s cannot run away from the wires. Where do you swap traction? If you swap at the station, you're then re-introducing one problem that push-pull working was supposed to eliminate. If you swap at the depot, you are in effect running a dedicated set.

I can see the point of wanting to run the same stock on all the "Intercity" routes, but the 47/7s and 90s used different methods of control, as you are aware. DVTs could probably have been modified to work with the 47s, but they wouldn't have been practical with so much wasted space. Do you modify the DBSOs to work with both systems? Or completely modify the ageing 47s with TDM when they were reaching the end of their lives? I 'm guessing your solution would have been new-build diesel locos to replace them!

Express Sprinters were on their way anyway, so it would make sense to use an EMU had the E&G been electrified. As mentioned above, a 25kv 442-style thing would give you the Intercity feel, but to be honest, it's a fast commuter route with a journey time of less than an hour. It links two cities, but it's not really intercity.

I'm off to fetch my hard hat!

 

[GrimShady]

Because 90s cannot run away from the wires. Where do you swap traction? If you swap at the station, you're then re-introducing one problem that push-pull working was supposed to eliminate. If you swap at the depot, you are in effect running a dedicated set.

I can see the point of wanting to run the same stock on all the "Intercity" routes, but the 47/7s and 90s used different methods of control, as you are aware. DVTs could probably have been modified to work with the 47s, but they wouldn't have been practical with so much wasted space. Do you modify the DBSOs to work with both systems? Or completely modify the ageing 47s with TDM when they were reaching the end of their lives? I 'm guessing your solution would have been new-build diesel locos to replace them!

Express Sprinters were on their way anyway, so it would make sense to use an EMU had the E&G been electrified. As mentioned above, a 25kv 442-style thing would give you the Intercity feel, but to be honest, it's a fast commuter route with a journey time of less than an hour. It links two cities, but it's not really intercity.

I'm off to fetch my hard hat!

Not having a go mate, just discussing.

I only meant that the pax stock could have interchangeable outside of service i.e. in the depots. Even if you were to swap traction between sets it wouldn't have been hard as the loco always leads out at Queen Street, you still have the benefit of not running around at Aberdeen or Edinburgh. 47/7s modified with with TDM to replace FDM could have continued on for a good few years as the Aberdeen service wouldn't have been as taxing on them, after all many went to NSE..some are still in service today.

When Chris Green was that the helm it still very much seen as an InterCity route and even run by them on behalf of ScotRail. This view had changed by 1989.

25kv 442 with powered doors would have been a nice train.

 

[GusB]

We'll have to agree to differ on this. For what it's worth, I preferred the loco-hauled sets over the units we have now (my enthusiasm died somewhat when the Sprinters arrived), but no amount of whatifery is going to bring them back.
The best you can hope for is a 68/Mk5-style solution when the HSTs are done

 

[GrimShady]

We'll have to agree to differ on this. For what it's worth, I preferred the loco-hauled sets over the units we have now (my enthusiasm died somewhat when the Sprinters arrived), but no amount of whatifery is going to bring them back.
The best you can hope for is a 68/Mk5-style solution when the HSTs are done

As I said I was just speculating on what may have been. I suppose it all depends on the cost of new multiple units Vs reusing old stock.

We share the same view on the Sprinters at least.

I strongly suspect by the time HSTs go they'll be going for bi mode multiple units.

 

[GrimShady]

We'll have to agree to differ on this. For what it's worth, I preferred the loco-hauled sets over the units we have now (my enthusiasm died somewhat when the Sprinters arrived), but no amount of whatifery is going to bring them back.
The best you can hope for is a 68/Mk5-style solution when the HSTs are done

Just a small point about new build locos. There was at the time, talk of a Class 38 mixed traffic loco which was marked for possible Intercity use including sleepers, maybe these could have been used. Unlikely as you say with Sprinters coming but hey ho, no harm in discussing.

 

[dubscottie]

Went through some old magazines earlier, and the ScotRail Mark 3 fleet as at Feb 1989 was 7 COs (11905-910/922) and 25 TSOs (12004/005/007/008/011-017/019-031/051).

Obviously 11004 and 12006 were scrapped after Polmont and 12018 was written off in an arson attack at Cowlairs in 1981. I assume that 11022 and 12051 transferred in at some point to replace those three vehicles. Which leaves 12009/010 - when did they go back to InterCity?

12009 was damaged and became one of the first refurbished InterCity 76 seat Mk3 TSOs around 1987. 12010 was never a ScotRail coach as it had non standard BT15 bogies and was always a Wembley coach from what I can see (going back to 1982).

 

[43096]

12009 was damaged and became one of the first refurbished InterCity 76 seat Mk3 TSOs around 1987. 12010 was never a ScotRail coach as it had non standard BT15 bogies and was always a Wembley coach from what I can see (going back to 1982).

Ta! Very helpful, thanks.

 

[Helvellyn]

An AC version of the 442s would have been good for EG services. Fitted with TDM you could have kept 47/7s to operate them push-pull on the Aberdeen services plus haul away from the wires in engineering works.

I always thought an AC version of the 442 would have been a good 309 replacement (16 5-car units to replace 23 4-car units) but also for use by InterCity on Birmingham-Manchester/Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services, again with the ability to be hauled Preston-Manchester.

 

[GrimShady]

An AC version of the 442s would have been good for EG services. Fitted with TDM you could have kept 47/7s to operate them push-pull on the Aberdeen services plus haul away from the wires in engineering works.

I always thought an AC version of the 442 would have been a good 309 replacement (16 5-car units to replace 23 4-car units) but also for use by InterCity on Birmingham-Manchester/Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services, again with the ability to be hauled Preston-Manchester.

Very good idea.

 

[47271]

If the E&G had been electrified in the early-mid 80s, the relevant question here, still being run by railway people, it would've been extended at least to Grahamston for diversions, and so probably Dunblane, so I bet it would've been with 317s, pretty much a 385 from another era, perfectly capable on Cambridge expresses for many years. So far so good.

Any later then God knows what pre privatisation cheapskate horrors would've been visited on us, and probably only a Falkirk High route making the whole thing as flaky as hell. Two coach 323s or 320s probably, and why not, if they thought they could operate the route with 158s at the time. Only Platform 14 at Waverley and Platform 5 at Queen Street wired, you get the idea. Anyway, the question doesn't arise because the infrastructure wouldn't have been invested in the first place.

Thinking of the 1990s makes you quite glad to be alive in 2018, even allowing for all of the recent EGIP frustrations. Sorry to spoil a nostalgia thread, just close your eyes and think of 86s working DBSO sets!

 

[GrimShady]

If the E&G had been electrified in the early-mid 80s, the relevant question here, still being run by railway people, it would've been extended at least to Grahamston for diversions, and so probably Dunblane, so I bet it would've been with 317s, pretty much a 385 from another era, perfectly capable on Cambridge expresses for many years. So far so good.

Any later then God knows what pre privatisation cheapskate horrors would've been visited on us, and probably only a Falkirk High route making the whole thing as flaky as hell. Two coach 323s or 320s probably, and why not, if they thought they could operate the route with 158s at the time. Only Platform 14 at Waverley and Platform 5 at Queen Street wired, you get the idea. Anyway, the question doesn't arise because the infrastructure wouldn't have been invested in the first place.

Thinking of the 1990s makes you quite glad to be alive in 2018, even allowing for all of the recent EGIP frustrations. Sorry to spoil a nostalgia thread, just close your eyes and think of 86s working DBSO sets!

I'm not entirely convinced Chris Green, had he stayed at ScotRail would have went down the route of EMUs on the E&G, it was still very much seen as an InterCity route in those days. I can see EMUs for Dunblane, after all 101s were standard on those routes mixed in with loco stock.

Early 90s then yeah you've definitely got a point.

 

[GusB]

I still cannot see why the E&G is revered as a "flagship" route. It isn't. It's a fast commuter service from one large centre of population to another that takes less than an hour. It doesn't need first class, and it doesn't need a buffet. By all means, electrify it, but let's not pretend that the E&G is special.

 

[47271]

I do have some logic, if no historical knowledge of what was going on internally, for my 317 derivative argument.

The push pull era relied on 1960s low acceleration technology to run a 4tph service on the E&G. So a fast point to point run via Falkirk High, 42 mins or whatever it was, leaving at 00 and 30 and a S-L-O-W dmu covering all stations via Grahamston going at 15 and 45. Each stopper was overtaken by its following express while it trundled through the middle of Falkirk.

Modern diesel acceleration (even with 170s) has allowed a 4tph via High timetable for the past 20 years or so, and far more people are being carried quickly into the city centres from intermediate stations than was ever possible in the old days. I believe that they would've spotted this opportunity from electrification at the time and run the route on that basis, and intercity status would't have come into it.

Obviously I'm only speculating...

 

[Helvellyn]

I still cannot see why the E&G is revered as a "flagship" route. It isn't. It's a fast commuter service from one large centre of population to another that takes less than an hour. It doesn't need first class, and it doesn't need a buffet. By all means, electrify it, but let's not pretend that the E&G is special.

Yet it very nearly got allocated to InterCity when sectorisation happened.

 

[GrimShady]

Yet it very nearly got allocated to InterCity when sectorisation happened.

Wasn't it actually run by InterCity on behalf of ScotRail?

 

[GrimShady]

I still cannot see why the E&G is revered as a "flagship" route. It isn't. It's a fast commuter service from one large centre of population to another that takes less than an hour. It doesn't need first class, and it doesn't need a buffet. By all means, electrify it, but let's not pretend that the E&G is special.

First Class during the peak times is always in use, including myself. Agreed on the buffet.

 

[Helvellyn]

Not once sectorised. Odd it went to a Provincial when Victoria-Gatwick did go to InterCity. Always thought that should have gone to NSE.