ScotRail December 2018 Timetable change

[Stopper]

Good, let us know how you get on driving to/from Edinburgh in rush hour traffic, attempting to find a parking spot etc.

Problem is all those lovely fare dodgers of Linlithgow, who love it when a pair of 365s tip up as they aim straight for the front unit in the hope of getting a free ride.

Driving to/from Edinburgh 3 times a week and to/from Stirling twice a week it is. I personally am not going to be giving ScotRail my money if the service does not benefit me. I know plenty others from Linlithgow doing the same. The service has not improved, nor is it going to. So sadly for now, as a 10+ years railway commuter, the car is a far more viable option right now.

And it looks like Dunblane/BofA commuters are the same.

 

[Mingulay]

Good, let us know how you get on driving to/from Edinburgh in rush hour traffic, attempting to find a parking spot etc.

Problem is all those lovely fare dodgers of Linlithgow, who love it when a pair of 365s tip up as they aim straight for the front unit in the hope of getting a free ride.

Sorry. No idea what your talking about. Fare dodgers at Linlithgow. What has that got to do the timetable and service from DUNBLANE. How do you get thru the barriers without a ticket ?

 

[Stopper]

It’s all good and well listing off a bunch of carefully ‘cherry-picked’ stations that will have an improved service, but you have to look at the stations that had the demand/need to be improved and the ones that didn’t also.

Before EGIP, the following stations (outside of Edinburgh & Glasgow) on the E-G/SDA that needed improvement were:

(IMPROVEMENT NECESSARY):

Stirling
Linlithgow
Polmont
Croy
Dunblane
Alloa

(Minor improvements needed):

Falkirk High
Falkirk Grahamston
Larbert
Bridge of Allan
Lenzie
Bishopbriggs

(No improvements needed):

Camelon

All improvements are welcome, and improved rolling stock and capacity for all stations on their main services is noted.

Stirling (around 2 million ppa) & Larbert (around 700k ppa I believe) passengers will enjoy a much quicker and quieter express service to Edinburgh. This is necessary.

Linlithgow (approx 1.1m passengers per year, likely a lot more), Polmont (approx 800k passengers per year), Falkirk High (around 800k I believe) and Croy (approx 1.2m passengers per year) are all seeing rolling stock/capacity improvements. This is necessary. However, given the improvements at much lesser stations such as Camelon, Cumbernauld, Gartcosh, Stepps etc, stations that serve only a handful compared to the big stations on the E-G, all 4 of these stations are given no increase in service. Linlithgow and Polmont actually have a reduction in service, with their half-houry Stirling services replaced with Cumbernauld services where nobody wants to go. Linlithgow would have justified staying on the Stirling services as well, giving it 6tph to Edinburgh.

Falkirk Grahamston & Camelon both see Edinburgh and Glasgow frequencies doubled whilst retaining their Stirling frequency, with much improved rolling stock and increased capacity. Grahamston improvements are certainly welcome however the level of improvement at these stations is a bit overkill when you consider stations such as Linlithgow and Polmont have been left alone.

Lenzie and Bishopbriggs see much needed rolling stock and capacity improvements on the Alloa line. This is necessary.

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan both see rolling stock improvements, but now face 10-15 minute waits at Stirling, effectively being looped in the Alloa platforms. Their promise of quicker journeys has been broken, as the quicker journey times do not exist for stations north of Stirling. 7-8am peak time services are being thirded, and 7-8am is the most travelled time in the peak. Just because a Perth service has been moved to 6:58am does not excuse this, how many people using the current service can make that new time? Very disappointing for passengers of these stations and I’m not surprised to see so many complaining.

Alloa sees the typical rolling stock/capacity increases that it needs, but unfortunately due to infrastructure, it still cannot have more than 1tph, which is badly needed.

So the reality is, apart from Stirling, no high priority station was vastly improved. It’s alright saying Larbert, Camelon, Gartcosh, Stepps etc have been improved but what about the ones that actually really need it like Dunblane, Linlithgow, Polmont, Croy?

 

[Mingulay]

It’s all good and well listing off a bunch of carefully ‘cherry-picked’ stations that will have an improved service, but you have to look at the stations that had the demand/need to be improved and the ones that didn’t also.

Before EGIP, the following stations (outside of Edinburgh & Glasgow) on the E-G/SDA that needed improvement were:

(IMPROVEMENT NECESSARY):

Stirling
Linlithgow
Polmont
Croy
Dunblane
Alloa

(Minor improvements needed):

Falkirk High
Falkirk Grahamston
Larbert
Bridge of Allan
Lenzie
Bishopbriggs

(No improvements needed):

Camelon

All improvements are welcome, and improved rolling stock and capacity for all stations on their main services is noted.

Stirling (around 2 million ppa) & Larbert (around 700k ppa I believe) passengers will enjoy a much quicker and quieter express service to Edinburgh. This is necessary.

Linlithgow (approx 1.1m passengers per year, likely a lot more), Polmont (approx 800k passengers per year), Falkirk High (around 800k I believe) and Croy (approx 1.2m passengers per year) are all seeing rolling stock/capacity improvements. This is necessary. However, given the improvements at much lesser stations such as Camelon, Cumbernauld, Gartcosh, Stepps etc, stations that serve only a handful compared to the big stations on the E-G, all 4 of these stations are given no increase in service. Linlithgow and Polmont actually have a reduction in service, with their half-houry Stirling services replaced with Cumbernauld services where nobody wants to go. Linlithgow would have justified staying on the Stirling services as well, giving it 6tph to Edinburgh.

Falkirk Grahamston & Camelon both see Edinburgh and Glasgow frequencies doubled whilst retaining their Stirling frequency, with much improved rolling stock and increased capacity. Grahamston improvements are certainly welcome however the level of improvement at these stations is a bit overkill when you consider stations such as Linlithgow and Polmont have been left alone.

Lenzie and Bishopbriggs see much needed rolling stock and capacity improvements on the Alloa line. This is necessary.

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan both see rolling stock improvements, but now face 10-15 minute waits at Stirling, effectively being looped in the Alloa platforms. Their promise of quicker journeys has been broken, as the quicker journey times do not exist for stations north of Stirling. 7-8am peak time services are being thirded, and 7-8am is the most travelled time in the peak. Just because a Perth service has been moved to 6:58am does not excuse this, how many people using the current service can make that new time? Very disappointing for passengers of these stations and I’m not surprised to see so many complaining.

Alloa sees the typical rolling stock/capacity increases that it needs, but unfortunately due to infrastructure, it still cannot have more than 1tph, which is badly needed.

So the reality is, apart from Stirling, no high priority station was vastly improved. It’s alright saying Larbert, Camelon, Gartcosh, Stepps etc have been improved but what about the ones that actually really need it like Dunblane, Linlithgow, Polmont, Croy?

Very well summarised.

It is a broken promise. The benefits of EGIP and repeated claims by Scotrail and Transport Scotland of more capacity and faster journeys.

If any Abellio management or TS representatives monitor this forum perhaps thru the appropriate channel they can explain why we were so badly misled ?

It’s certainly a breach of trust.

We have had the pain. Where is the gain?

 

[tbtc]

Faster services to Edinburgh, double the frequency from Grahamston to Edinburgh, direct services to the capital from one of the biggest places in Scotland (Cumbernauld)... but the service leaving Dunblane in the morning just after seven now leaves at 06:58, so the new timetable is rubbish...

I sense we are going round in circles here. Those that voice concern in stations seeing s poorer service are trumped by those who are not. Human nature.

I suggest we all await the start of the timetable and judge the changes then.

Let’s build in the inevitable reality. Trains will b cancelled due to all manner of reasons. How does that impact . In DUNBLANE if we lose that one service we are waiting a long time. Also let’s not forget. The on time reality is often 3 mins late but scotrail deem that on time. Whereas the world of real passengers that is late

The timetable may not just work well at all in practice. And queuing into Waverley delays it may mean even GLASGOW passengers judge it all a bit underwhelming sitting on there apparently hard seats !

Sure - let's wait and see - just as long as we remember the current situation (given that I see people complaining about short formed services through Stirling and regular delays as it is, so we don't end up in a situation like in some other parts of the UK where a new timetable sees people complaining about short forming and delays and pretending that such things never happened in the past).

Trains are cancelled nowadays, I'm sure there'll be cancellations in the future too - it's inevitable. Let's just be honest about the new timetable and not pretend that it's the huge reduction that some on here would have you believe.

The approximately 10 minute waits at Stirling, and the single unit running on Cumbernauld services, aswell as running a Cumbernauld service altogether is absolutely unacceptable and cannot be defended by anyone without an agenda. The fact Linlithgow is remaining at 4tph to Edinburgh is also very disappointing. Car it is come December!

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan both see rolling stock improvements, but now face 10-15 minute waits at Stirling, effectively being looped in the Alloa platforms

The "ten minute waits" at Stirling? Or is it "fifteen"?

This is only on one departure from Edinburgh (the 17:18)? Or does it affect more services?

Because, from me looking at the timetable, the Dunblane - Edinburgh services seem to take around an hour - which is roughly five minutes faster than current journeys between the two places take.

It's just that there's one train a day that gets looped at Stirling (Dunblane passengers can change onto the Aberdeen service here, or remain on the train). But from the way people go on about it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that this affects *all* services on the line (or at least a majority).

Good, let us know how you get on driving to/from Edinburgh in rush hour traffic, attempting to find a parking spot etc.

Problem is all those lovely fare dodgers of Linlithgow, who love it when a pair of 365s tip up as they aim straight for the front unit in the hope of getting a free ride.

Sorry. No idea what your talking about. Fare dodgers at Linlithgow. What has that got to do the timetable and service from DUNBLANE. How do you get thru the barriers without a ticket ?

When the number of passengers from Linlithgow/ Polmont to Stirling was explained by @Altnabreac , the excuse given by others was that there are significant numbers of ticketless passengers from Linlithgow that aren't counted in those numbers - one minute we should be basing the service patterns on these people who don't bother to actually contribute by paying for their travel - the next minute they have nothing to do with demand on the line? Which is it?

Dunblane and Bridge of Allan both see rolling stock improvements, but now face 10-15 minute waits at Stirling, effectively being looped in the Alloa platforms. . 7-8am peak time services are being thirded, and 7-8am is the most travelled time in the peak. Just because a Perth service has been moved to 6:58am does not excuse this, how many people using the current service can make that new time?

Saying "thirded" sounds dramatic.

Reality is, one service (that leaves Dunblane just after seven) is being retimed to leave just before seven (06:58). It also gets to Edinburgh a few minutes faster.

The one service actually being withdrawn arrives at Waverley within three minutes of another Dunblane - Edinburgh service (so it's not like scrapping it causes a huge gap).

Other services are brought forward/back a little bit, as you'd expect at a recast. Sometimes a service running ten minutes earlier or later will help people, sometimes it'll hinder them - as I've said above on the thread, the fact that the 07:58 ex Dunblane becomes a faster 07:54 might mean that it's feasible to use this to Edinburgh Park (arr 08:45) and be at your desk by nine, rather than the current 08:52 arrival (note that leaving Dunblane four minutes earlier means getting to Edinburgh Park seven minutes earlier - presumably this isn't one of the services waiting fifteen minutes at Stirling?). If your office is close to Haymarket, the same goes there too.

 

[Mingulay]

Faster services to Edinburgh, double the frequency from Grahamston to Edinburgh, direct services to the capital from one of the biggest places in Scotland (Cumbernauld)... but the service leaving Dunblane in the morning just after seven now leaves at 06:58, so the new timetable is rubbish...



Sure - let's wait and see - just as long as we remember the current situation (given that I see people complaining about short formed services through Stirling and regular delays as it is, so we don't end up in a situation like in some other parts of the UK where a new timetable sees people complaining about short forming and delays and pretending that such things never happened in the past).

Trains are cancelled nowadays, I'm sure there'll be cancellations in the future too - it's inevitable. Let's just be honest about the new timetable and not pretend that it's the huge reduction that some on here would have you believe.





The "ten minute waits" at Stirling? Or is it "fifteen"?

This is only on one departure from Edinburgh (the 17:18)? Or does it affect more services?

Because, from me looking at the timetable, the Dunblane - Edinburgh services seem to take around an hour - which is roughly five minutes faster than current journeys between the two places take.

It's just that there's one train a day that gets looped at Stirling (Dunblane passengers can change onto the Aberdeen service here, or remain on the train). But from the way people go on about it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that this affects *all* services on the line (or at least a majority).





When the number of passengers from Linlithgow/ Polmont to Stirling was explained by @Altnabreac , the excuse given by others was that there are significant numbers of ticketless passengers from Linlithgow that aren't counted in those numbers - one minute we should be basing the service patterns on these people who don't bother to actually contribute by paying for their travel - the next minute they have nothing to do with demand on the line? Which is it?



Saying "thirded" sounds dramatic.

Reality is, one service (that leaves Dunblane just after seven) is being retimed to leave just before seven (06:58). It also gets to Edinburgh a few minutes faster.

The one service actually being withdrawn arrives at Waverley within three minutes of another Dunblane - Edinburgh service (so it's not like scrapping it causes a huge gap).

Other services are brought forward/back a little bit, as you'd expect at a recast. Sometimes a service running ten minutes earlier or later will help people, sometimes it'll hinder them - as I've said above on the thread, the fact that the 07:58 ex Dunblane becomes a faster 07:54 might mean that it's feasible to use this to Edinburgh Park (arr 08:45) and be at your desk by nine, rather than the current 08:52 arrival (note that leaving Dunblane four minutes earlier means getting to Edinburgh Park seven minutes earlier - presumably this isn't one of the services waiting fifteen minutes at Stirling?). If your office is close to Haymarket, the same goes there too.

To be clear. It’s the commuting trains that are time critical and so get the focus. Off peak trains are of less concern naturally.

Do we know why the DUNBLANE train has to be looped by ABERDEEN service at Stirling. ? Why can’t it continue on to DUNBLANE. Sit in the loop and get passed there as at present ?

 

[InOban]

I was wondering whether, when the HSTs arrive, they will catch up on the Dunblane train sooner - if that ran on, calling at BofA then it would hold up the HST.

 

[Mingulay]

I was wondering whether, when the HSTs arrive, they will catch up on the Dunblane train sooner - if that ran on, calling at BofA then it would hold up the HST.

No idea. But in 13 mins the train would already be in DUNBLANE from Stirling.

It can accommodate a 6 carriage 170 set with platform to spare so I assume the platform length is not an issue ?

 

[Chrism20]

I was wondering whether, when the HSTs arrive, they will catch up on the Dunblane train sooner - if that ran on, calling at BofA then it would hold up the HST.

Looking at it the 1718 ex Edinburgh is due into Stirling at 1805 so assuming the standard 2 minutes for Stirling calls would be an 1807 departure. RTT has it taking 13 minutes from Stirling (Departing at 1818) to reach Dunblane so that would make an 1820 arrival. The 1741 Glasgow to Aberdeen is due into Dunblane at 1816.

I know RTT is possibly still a work in progress just now but looking at it for Stirling on December 12th the 1718 is going into P6 and then also has an Alloa service leaving P6 at 1813 (I can't see an earlier arrival that would show a waiting unit). The existing direct Alloa service ex Edinburgh (1734?) also doesn't seem to be there (at the moment) after the timetable change. Could this possibly be a double unit leaving Edinburgh with it splitting at Stirling - front portion to Alloa and the rear to Dunblane? If this is the case that more than likely explains the long wait for Dunblane passengers - 1. Allow the express through first bearing in mind it has to face the single line at Usan and 2. Splitting the units.

 

[snookertam]

Perhaps not as they are so used to that kind of delay, which as you say when its the norm at peak time, is barely noticed . But if you are awaiting 13 mins at Stirling for a connection and its say 5 min delay that's you waiting 18 mins in a cold station and the total journey is significantly longer than we currently have on this timetable .

Where there are tight connections then yes, a five minute delay will be noticed and so you've got a point there. I don't see where I said that a 3 minute delay isn't noticed because it was the norm though. My point was that on a journey of around 30 minutes or so, arriving three minutes behind schedule tends not to be noticed by most commuters. That's just due to perception, most passengers are not paying that level of attention as their own personal daily schedule is unlikely to be planned by the minute.

As for why this peak time train will be looped at Stirling as opposed to continuing to Dunblane I'm not entirely sure. I've looked on Real Time trains and there's nothing immediately obvious. I can only guess it is to do with the pathing of 1A83 further north. (Also, I don't see why you'd be waiting 18 minutes in a cold station when the train is sitting in the platform all that time...). By all means lobby your MSP to get it changed. It happened with services from Helensburgh Central when the new North Clyde timetable got introduced so they got an extra morning peak express train after it was withdrawn to allow an all day clock face timetable, so alterations can be made in the future as well. With a few tweaks here and there then I reckon they could come up with an alternative way of running those two services.

I would also point out that there is an option to depart Dunblane at 07:29 by boarding 2N48 (0703 Perth to Glasgow Queen Street), alight at Stirling and after an 11 minute wait board 1P10 (0739 ex-Alloa), arriving into Edinburgh at 08:41. Now that's not as good as the current timetable I grant you but it doesn't mean a full hour without journey opportunities to Edinburgh either.

Also why do you keep typing Dunblane in capital letters? We get that you're unhappy with the proposed service. This emphasis on Dunblane as if no-one else can have a valid point is a bit tedious. Try and make your point without hectoring people.

 

[snookertam]

Looking at it the 1718 ex Edinburgh is due into Stirling at 1805 so assuming the standard 2 minutes for Stirling calls would be an 1807 departure. RTT has it taking 13 minutes from Stirling (Departing at 1818) to reach Dunblane so that would make an 1820 arrival. The 1741 Glasgow to Aberdeen is due into Dunblane at 1816.

I know RTT is possibly still a work in progress just now but looking at it for Stirling on December 12th the 1718 is going into P6 and then also has an Alloa service leaving P6 at 1813 (I can't see an earlier arrival that would show a waiting unit). The existing direct Alloa service ex Edinburgh (1734?) also doesn't seem to be there (at the moment) after the timetable change. Could this possibly be a double unit leaving Edinburgh with it splitting at Stirling - front portion to Alloa and the rear to Dunblane? If this is the case that more than likely explains the long wait for Dunblane passengers - 1. Allow the express through first bearing in mind it has to face the single line at Usan and 2. Splitting the units.

The splitting units at Stirling theory makes perfect sense actually. There's no corresponding 1PXX from Edinburgh to Alloa as there is in the morning, so I'm almost certain you're correct in that one. Couldn't do a combining move in the morning probably because the signalling at Stirling wont allow it.

 

[Mingulay]

Looking at it the 1718 ex Edinburgh is due into Stirling at 1805 so assuming the standard 2 minutes for Stirling calls would be an 1807 departure. RTT has it taking 13 minutes from Stirling (Departing at 1818) to reach Dunblane so that would make an 1820 arrival. The 1741 Glasgow to Aberdeen is due into Dunblane at 1816.

I know RTT is possibly still a work in progress just now but looking at it for Stirling on December 12th the 1718 is going into P6 and then also has an Alloa service leaving P6 at 1813 (I can't see an earlier arrival that would show a waiting unit). The existing direct Alloa service ex Edinburgh (1734?) also doesn't seem to be there (at the moment) after the timetable change. Could this possibly be a double unit leaving Edinburgh with it splitting at Stirling - front portion to Alloa and the rear to Dunblane? If this is the case that more than likely explains the long wait for Dunblane passengers - 1. Allow the express through first bearing in mind it has to face the single line at Usan and 2. Splitting the units.

Not sure what happens at Stirling. But if we have 365

Where there are tight connections then yes, a five minute delay will be noticed and so you've got a point there. I don't see where I said that a 3 minute delay isn't noticed because it was the norm though. My point was that on a journey of around 30 minutes or so, arriving three minutes behind schedule tends not to be noticed by most commuters. That's just due to perception, most passengers are not paying that level of attention as their own personal daily schedule is unlikely to be planned by the minute.

As for why this peak time train will be looped at Stirling as opposed to continuing to Dunblane I'm not entirely sure. I've looked on Real Time trains and there's nothing immediately obvious. I can only guess it is to do with the pathing of 1A83 further north. (Also, I don't see why you'd be waiting 18 minutes in a cold station when the train is sitting in the platform all that time...). By all means lobby your MSP to get it changed. It happened with services from Helensburgh Central when the new North Clyde timetable got introduced so they got an extra morning peak express train after it was withdrawn to allow an all day clock face timetable, so alterations can be made in the future as well. With a few tweaks here and there then I reckon they could come up with an alternative way of running those two services.

I would also point out that there is an option to depart Dunblane at 07:29 by boarding 2N48 (0703 Perth to Glasgow Queen Street), alight at Stirling and after an 11 minute wait board 1P10 (0739 ex-Alloa), arriving into Edinburgh at 08:41. Now that's not as good as the current timetable I grant you but it doesn't mean a full hour without journey opportunities to Edinburgh either.

Also why do you keep typing Dunblane in capital letters? We get that you're unhappy with the proposed service. This emphasis on Dunblane as if no-one else can have a valid point is a bit tedious. Try and make your point without hectoring people.

I’m not hectoring. As I have explained before about the capital letter thing . On my phone. It converts some place names to capitals. Very annoying. So when when I type DUNBLANE or EDINBURGH. There you go. It’s done it again. Only when I type Glasgow. It doesn’t. Answers on a post card please. ?

Thank for other options. As you say less than ideal.

Yes when delays of 3 to 4 mins in an hour trip are routine. They cease to be an issue. They merely become the timetable by default.

 

[kilonewton]

What seems to be missing from the discussion is that the much vaunted 42 minute service on E-G is not yet achieved, (a very limited basis to make the 42 minute claims “true” doth butter no parsnips), due to the 385s not being fully rolled out across E-G & SDA. Better informed persons than myself can add, but will there be more improvements in May 19?

 

[Stopper]

You can say that the Dunblane peak (7-8am) service being “thirded” is dramatic, but it’s true. One service has been moved to an earlier, less convenient time, and another has disappeared.

The reason that there is possibly going to be a Edinburgh-Dunblane/Alloa split on that service (which I believe isn’t the only one) is because there are no extra paths to run the usual Alloa service because they have been replaced with ultra-pointless Cumbernauld services!

Newbride Junction is going to be mayhem come December.

 

[Stopper]

For the record, the following services are looped at Stirling Platforms 6&9;

06:50 GlasgowQS to Dunblane (10 mins)
17:15 Dunblane to Edinburgh (14 mins)
17:48 Dunblane to Edinburgh (7 mins)
17:18 Edinburgh to Dunblane (13 mins)
19:18 Edinburgh to Dunblane (9 mins)

This is not ONE service.

 

[Kite159]

Some slow services which terminate at Dunblane gets overtaken at Stirling to allow fast services a clearer run shocker!

Timetable is crap, stoppers should be put out in front of the fasts because a limited number of Dunblane commuters want to get home a few minutes earlier.

Who knows the new services from Cumbernauld might give the town a welcome boost, large carpark for commuters to use as well, but no they can't have direct Edinburgh trains because a fare dodger from Polmont wants a direct train to Larbert.

 

[tbtc]

You can say that the Dunblane peak (7-8am) service being “thirded” is dramatic, but it’s true. One service has been moved to an earlier, less convenient time, and another has disappeared.

One service is being moved from a few minutes after seven to a few minutes before seven (06:58).

The one service withdrawn currently arrives at Waverley within three minutes of another service - i.e. two similarly timed services are being replaced by one (it won't leave a huge gap in Waverley arrivals from Dunblane).

Meanwhile, in the same rush hour, Grahamston arrivals into Waverley go up from four to eight, and Cumbernauld (50,000+ population - significantly bigger than Stirling/ Falkirk - apparently it's even bigger than Dunblane!) gets a regular Edinburgh service.

If this is the level of complain about the new timetable then I think it's generally positive (unless we are pretending that 06:58 is so early it might as well be the day before).

For the record, the following services are looped at Stirling Platforms 6&9;

06:50 GlasgowQS to Dunblane (10 mins)
17:15 Dunblane to Edinburgh (14 mins)
17:48 Dunblane to Edinburgh (7 mins)
17:18 Edinburgh to Dunblane (13 mins)
19:18 Edinburgh to Dunblane (9 mins)

This is not ONE service.

At the moment the 06:50 from Queen Street waits 07:31 - 07:41 at Stirling.

At the moment the 08:49 from Glasgow sits at Stirling from 09:29 to 09:46.

At the moment the 16:18 from Glasgow sits at Stirling from 17:00 to 17:08.

At the moment the 18:28 from Alloa waits 18:43 - 18:53 at Stirling.

It’s hardly a new thing.

And, realistically, the demand to get from Glasgow to Dunblane at 06:50 or from Dunblane to Edinburgh at 17:15/17:48 is going to pretty low (going against the peak flow). The number of passengers inconvenienced by having to wait a few minutes at Stirling will probably be dwarfed by the number on the HST overtaking it - hardly surprising that the busier train gets priority.

There's only one *busy* service affected in the new timetable, by the look of it (and that does permit passengers to change for a faster Dunblane service, plus may be associated with the need to split units, so will be a doubled up EMU providing a lot of seats for Stirling passengers). Ideally there wouldn't be a wait on the 17:18 from Waverley but timetables are all about compromise.

 

[Kite159]

At the moment the 18:28 from Alloa waits 18:43 - 18:53 at Stirling.

And made worse as that service also sits in Cambus Loop for 5 minutes to wait for an Edinburgh - Alloa service to pass. So services waiting at Stirling is nothing new.

 

[tbtc]

And made worse as that service also sits in Cambus Loop for 5 minutes to wait for an Edinburgh - Alloa service to pass. So services waiting at Stirling is nothing new.

Good spot.

This is going to be like the Manchester electrification threads, or the TPE "upgrade" threads, where the people who've been complaining about delayed/ cancelled/ short-formed trains on their local line over previous months suddenly start eulogising about how good things were under the old timetable compared to the delayed/ cancelled/ short formed trains under the *new* timetable - instead of complaining about being regularly crammed onto a two coach 158 that was delayed at Newbridge they'll be complaining about being on *just* a three coach 385 that was two minutes late at Waverley (unlike the perfectly reliable service before).

What goes around...

 

[Stopper]

Cumbernauld is a low demand station. If you know anything about Cumbernauld, you know that it's in a terrible area of the town so most commuters use Croy. Cumbernauld does not need demand Edinburgh services, you can't just say "wait and see" as justification for Linlithgow, Polmont, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane getting either reduced overall (or peak time) services. It's simply unacceptable, and the bizarre endless defenders of this timetable seem to be ignoring every downside to it.

 

[Stopper]

Some slow services which terminate at Dunblane gets overtaken at Stirling to allow fast services a clearer run shocker!

Timetable is crap, stoppers should be put out in front of the fasts because a limited number of Dunblane commuters want to get home a few minutes earlier.

Who knows the new services from Cumbernauld might give the town a welcome boost, large carpark for commuters to use as well, but no they can't have direct Edinburgh trains because a fare dodger from Polmont wants a direct train to Larbert.

Yeah, let’s advocate an inferior service at Linlithgow and Polmont, and to some extent Dunblane, just because Cumbernauld, a totally backwater station out of the way of any residential areas, already better served by Croy, *might* get a boost from these services.

Solid logic there.

 

[tbtc]

Cumbernauld is a low demand station. If you know anything about Cumbernauld, you know that it's in a terrible area of the town so most commuters use Croy. Cumbernauld does not need demand Edinburgh services, you can't just say "wait and see" as justification for Linlithgow, Polmont, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane getting either reduced overall (or peak time) services. It's simply unacceptable, and the bizarre endless defenders of this timetable seem to be ignoring every downside to it.

Cumbernauld station is on the other side of the town from Croy - one station will be will be more use to some people, some people will prefer the other.

Of course most commuters use Croy at the moment, given the poor service from Cumbernauld to the east (hourly to Falkirk, that's all) - hardly surprising that demand is currently low.

But there are over fifty thousand people in Cumbernauld (as I say, bigger than Stirling or Falkirk) - in a few years time it'll be unthinkable that a town of fifty thousand people less than forty miles from the capital had no direct service to Waverley.

Seems a lot of snobbery on here about Cumbernauld (maybe because it's not a "traditional" place) - the tactic seems to be to bash Cumbernauld as an excuse to moan about the fact that the morning departure from Dunblane to Waverley has been brought forward by a couple of minutes!

I'd wager that (after a couple of years) demand from Cumbernauld to Edinburgh will be higher than from Polmont to Dunblane.

 

[Stopper]

Cumbernauld station is on the other side of the town from Croy - one station will be will be more use to some people, some people will prefer the other.

Of course most commuters use Croy at the moment, given the poor service from Cumbernauld to the east (hourly to Falkirk, that's all) - hardly surprising that demand is currently low.

But there are over fifty thousand people in Cumbernauld (as I say, bigger than Stirling or Falkirk) - in a few years time it'll be unthinkable that a town of fifty thousand people less than forty miles from the capital had no direct service to Waverley.

Seems a lot of snobbery on here about Cumbernauld (maybe because it's not a "traditional" place) - the tactic seems to be to bash Cumbernauld as an excuse to moan about the fact that the morning departure from Dunblane to Waverley has been brought forward by a couple of minutes!

I'd wager that (after a couple of years) demand from Cumbernauld to Edinburgh will be higher than from Polmont to Dunblane.

Cumbernauld is a very big place, nobody has denied that. Population is not always a factor when deciding on services. All of the residential areas such as Balloch, Condorrat, Village etc are much closer to Croy. The other big residential area, Abronhill, is served by a fantastic bus service. There’s a reason Cumbernauld station has low numbers, because it’s near absolutely nothing!

You need to actually know stuff about the area before making judgement on these things. People use Croy because it’s in a better area, not because it has a better service.

I can’t speak too much for BofA/Dunblane commuters, but if you can’t see why Linlithgow and Polmont passengers are protesting against this in their numbers, then I don’t know what else I can say.

 

[Mingulay]

I think will just direct my views and complaints on the timetable to Scotrail and not voice them here or contribute to the debate on this forum. It so readily descends into tribalism. Reference to snobbery or priveledge in one town over another . Had that before from some regular contributor on here before , quoting social depravision statistics at me.

And now accused of hectoring because my phone types capitals on certain place names which I can’t resolve. For heavens sake. !

I have no issues with CUMBERNAULD Typed again in capitals automatically no new town hectoring intended. I used to work there.

My legitimate observation is my town is to get a poorer service. We have endured years of sub standard service and more recently the upheaval of engineering works all on the stated objective of a far better service to come.

The reality is far from that. I feel conned by the scotrail alliance who have not delivered what was marketed . So be it. I wish other parts of the central belt well who will benefit from slightly better services including or friends in the new town beginning with C

 

[Stopper]

I’ll echo the post above. My station Linlithgow has been in need of improvement for ages only to still remain with a sub-par service after the timetable change.

 

[EMU303]

I think Greenfaulds station will see a spike in peak hour numbers to Edinburgh - many people parking at Croy come from outside Cumbernauld and indeed some drive right past Greeenfaulds station to get to Croy to travel to Edinburgh. Croy has 700 parking spaces which are full Mon-Fri resulting in parking on the side roads. It's only a matter of time before the police and council have to intervene. Greenfaulds also has parking (320) but it is under-utilised and will I believe attract some Croy commuters to use it instead. Even though the journery to Edinburgh from Greenfaulds will be slightly longer, if you are guaranteed a parking spot then you may swap.

I also believe the Cumbernauld line will see rising numbers overall. I know people in Stepps and Gartcosh who also park at Croy and then travel to Edinburgh. The new station being built at Robroyston and the new houses to built around it will add further demand. It's being suggested that the replacement for Monklands Hospital will be built at Gartcosh. And perhaps there is more scope at Greenfaulds for an expanded car park since the options at Croy are extremely limited. The suggestion of a multi-storey car park at Croy will not be permitted due to the new housing overlooking the car park. With other builders falling over themselves to buy land in Cumbernauld it might be that Greenfaulds becomes the real growth station.

 

[Carntyne]

I imagine the Cumbernauld - Edinburgh services will see the exact same or very similar growth as Airdrie - Edinburgh did, with claims of "white elephant" if it's not full on the first day. It's now absolute rammed at peak and having a relatively good problem in needing to start work on more capacity.

 

[Stopper]

Airdrie did not have another, better station serving it towards Edinburgh already, as Cumbernauld does. The Glasgow flows from Cumbernauld are not even that big as it is. The main problem (which is being ignored by most) is the extra 2tph through Newbridge Junction. That’s 12tph (possibly more) at peak times. I know electrics will help the situation, but it heavily struggles with 10tph as it is.

 

[Mingulay]

I’ll echo the post above. My station Linlithgow has been in need of improvement for ages only to still remain with a sub-par service after the timetable change.

Latest PR fire fighting by Scotrail

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45991467

I tend to have some sympathy with AH to a point

But he is running out of goodwill and patience now . "Scotlands best ever railway" may look for some a wee tad better, others it will be worse for Dunblane , B of A, Linlithgow , Polmont etc. But that is a price we pay for a few minutes saved on Glasgow/ Edinburgh. And I accept new trains and greener trains are welcome.

But when EGIP is finished there will be no excuse for routinely late trains , dirty trains , over crowded trains, or slower services than before I would suggest . The travelling public will judge Scotrail / Transport Scotland then. The jam tomorrow mantra wont work soon. But no doubt AH will have moved on by then to another TOC with a feather in his cap !

 

[Carntyne]

Journey time reductions on Glasgow - Edinburgh will also benefit Linlithgow. E&G services stop there too.

All timetables are a compromise, you can't make everyone happy. It feels like the right decision impacting on a relatively low number of customers, who can still make their journey with a change.