SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[HowardGWR]

I suppose the western guards are striking out of solidarity, but it can't be because they fear losing their jobs, even if the 159s were fitted for DCO. Unlike what I read about the local London services, the guards west of Salisbury have a very full time job dealing with customers and could never be replaced, even if DCO was to be introduced. I wonder how they feel about this. It's probably the same on the Weymouth line, (for instance).

 

[Robertj21a]

I suppose the western guards are striking out of solidarity, but it can't be because they fear losing their jobs, even if the 159s were fitted for DCO. Unlike what I read about the local London services, the guards west of Salisbury have a very full time job dealing with customers and could never be replaced, even if DCO was to be introduced. I wonder how they feel about this. It's probably the same on the Weymouth line, (for instance).

Why do the guards have a very full time job dealing with customers west of Salisbury ? - wouldn't that be an ideal role for an OBS ?

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite an interesting one yesterday afternoon - the 1539 Waterloo-Guildford via Epsom was cancelled because of the lack of a guard. Some interesting comments from the rest of the pissed-off passengers, including "Of course there's no guard, they're all on strike", and "I don't know what the problem is, they run these trains without guards some of the time anyway".

Not sure what the source of the second comment was - my guess is that there are times when the guard is not visible apart from dispatch, with no PA announcements or anything, so it is quite possible to board and alight the train without seeing the guard, and if you think it's the people on the platform that do dispatch...

Until this dispute I knew several people who commute by SWT/SWR who thought that some services they caught had been DOO for years.

 

[infobleep]

When I explain to some people why I feel there should be a guard on the train, as it's more safe, they understand and agree. Before hand they may not have done so. I didn't even go into great detail.

So I think it works both ways. So someone may not see a guard and think the service is DOO. They might not see why I think having a guard is a good idea sn thus think we don't need them.

Explaining there is a guard may in some cases make them realise there is a guard on the trains and it may also make them see why it is worth keeping them even In times of disruption.

I'm not saying that is the case for everyone but it may be for some, which might be why South Western Railway don't want to publicly make a strong case for way not having a guard on the train is safe enough.

 

[HowardGWR]

Why do the guards have a very full time job dealing with customers west of Salisbury ? - wouldn't that be an ideal role for an OBS ?

Exactly; that's what I was writing, if you have another look at what I posted.

 

[Robertj21a]

Exactly; that's what I was writing, if you have another look at what I posted.

Thanks. I think my query was perhaps *WHY* are they so busy west of Salisbury - is it doors operation, customer queries, unsocial behaviour (etc etc). The guards would, presumably, fear for losing their precise jobs if SWR was to ever plan for them to be replaced by an OBS role ?

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks. I think my query was perhaps *WHY* are they so busy west of Salisbury - is it doors operation, customer queries, unsocial behaviour (etc etc). The guards would, presumably, fear for losing their precise jobs if SWR was to ever plan for them to be replaced by an OBS role ?

Sorry, I also did not answer your first query. West of Salisbury, there are no platform barriers until Exeter Central, nor platform staff as a rule. Thus an OBS function would be helpful in assisting infirm and elderly pax at Stations to dismount at stations, especially those with a gap. The booking offices are not always open at every hour and the TVMs are - well, TVMs, enough said. A lot of retired elderly folk live along this line and are making occasional journeys. The trains stop at Woking and Clapham Junction and people need good announcements and advice on where to go next in order to catch connections to the two airports. Some may be changing at Basingstoke for XC and GWR services, for instance.

The guards on this line do a very good job and I just wonder why they would have any interest in this dispute, as the management will be in no doubt as to their need to be fully employed, regardless of their job title. Go on calling them guards, so what? 90% of a guards job is looking after customers in many ways. Avoiding doing the 10% that is pressing door knobs (if that ever comes about on the LSWR western lines) will free them up to the other tasks even better. IMO.

 

[yorkie]

When I explain to some people why I feel there should be a guard on the train, as it's more safe, they understand and agree. Before hand they may not have done so. I didn't even go into great detail.

Do you explain to people that DOO refers to the operation of the train, and there may still be other staff on the train even if it is driver only operated?

So I think it works both ways. So someone may not see a guard and think the service is DOO. They might not see why I think having a guard is a good idea sn thus think we don't need them.

I don't think many 'average' passengers actually know if staff who they see patrolling the trains are actually Guards or not, and I can't imagine anyone feels less safe on the electric services around places like Glasgow than on the diesel ones, or on a Southeastern/GTR train with an OBM/OBS rather than a Guard, do you think people do?

Until this dispute I knew several people who commute by SWT/SWR who thought that some services they caught had been DOO for years.

I think we need to be honest and accept the 'average' passenger wants to see staff patrolling the train and they do not mind exactly what role they hold.

I do not think most people feel less safe on a train with a TE/OBM/OBS patrolling the train than on most of the trains I get on a typical evening, which have a Guard not venturing from the back cab. Maybe some people do, but they will surely be in a minority.

So I really don't get @infobleep's point at all.

 

[RPI]

Guards busy west of Salisbury? Years of regular commuting from Crewkerne or Axminster to Exeter and probably see someone around twice a week on the way in and probably only seen someone about 6 or 7 times in total on the return journey sadly.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I know where you are coming from and I agree, in the metro area I completely understand that on certain stock such as 455s the Guards are confined to the rear cab however even on the Class 707 the majority seem to operate from the back even when they have door controls in the saloon. Aside from that is there any argument or justification for non commercial Guards in year 2018. It is not the Guards themselves fault but the company I am amazed that they don't provide them with the equipment and training to carry out commercial duties they would then be bringing the company revenue in particularly when so many busy SWR stations appear to be lacking barriers. Unfortunately SWR does require modernisation particularly in the London area they seem to have fallen even more behind the other LSE operators where customer service and efficiency seems to be improving. SWR was always going to come with big changes and I think a lot of people accept it as it seems like the years of lack of change to working practices and investment in the franchise by Stagecoach is starting to have a real negative effect on performance.

 

[Ethano92]

General question. Do driver operated doors generally speed up dwell times? It's just because I've noticed on DOO services the doors appear to be released faster and the train departs sooner after the doors have shut. I know there are reasons for this, but are guard operated doors slower to a point it's recognised within the railways or not so much?

Perhaps you could argue the doors stay open for less with a guard because they can rush people with whistles.

The reason I bring this up is because I overheard some people talking about how "irrelevant guards are on suburban, short distance services" (which I agree with to some extent though irrelevant is a stretch in my opinion) and it got me thinking, would driver operated doors help the slow lines out of Waterloo with trains stopping at every Station only 2 or 3 minutes apart even if there was still some form of 2nd staff member on the train. Surely if dwell times could be further reduced at stations beyond wide doors and fewer seats, there could be some sort of benefit made.

Generally, i don't believe it would make much of a difference to the majority of people's journies if there wasn't a guard on short distance services, i don't agree with the whole 'health and safety' card being played because I don't tend to hear people saying they feel unsafe on the tube, Thameslink etc. Especially with the advance of CCTV and wide, walkthrough, brightly lit trains which the 701s will be

 

[hwl]

General question. Do driver operated doors generally speed up dwell times? It's just because I've noticed on DOO services the doors appear to be released faster and the train departs sooner after the doors have shut. I know there are reasons for this, but are guard operated doors slower to a point it's recognised within the railways or not so much?

Perhaps you could argue the doors stay open for less with a guard because they can rush people with whistles.

The reason I bring this up is because I overheard some people talking about how "irrelevant guards are on suburban, short distance services" (which I agree with to some extent though irrelevant is a stretch in my opinion) and it got me thinking, would driver operated doors help the slow lines out of Waterloo with trains stopping at every Station only 2 or 3 minutes apart even if there was still some form of 2nd staff member on the train. Surely if dwell times could be further reduced at stations beyond wide doors and fewer seats, there could be some sort of benefit made.

Generally, i don't believe it would make much of a difference to the majority of people's journies if there wasn't a guard on short distance services, i don't agree with the whole 'health and safety' card being played because I don't tend to hear people saying they feel unsafe on the tube, Thameslink etc. Especially with the advance of CCTV and wide, walkthrough, brightly lit trains which the 701s will be

Yes they do which is a big reason fro SWR wanting to do it, saving 5-10 seconds a stop adds up

 

[Ethano92]

Yes they do which is a big reason fro SWR wanting to do it, saving 5-10 seconds a stop adds up

You know, I worded my question so carefully in fear of upsetting some of the know it alls on this forum if what I asked wasn't true at all. Turns out I really didn't need to.

I can certainly agree with SWR more, having so many trains calling at all stops as far as Wimbledon needs as short dwell times as possible. 5-10 seconds added with the better acceleration the 701s will have really could add up. Perhaps that could be the solution, guards but they don't operate the doors, would RMT accept that?

 

[HowardGWR]

Guards busy west of Salisbury? Years of regular commuting from Crewkerne or Axminster to Exeter and probably see someone around twice a week on the way in and probably only seen someone about 6 or 7 times in total on the return journey sadly.

Interesting. My admittedly occasional trips east from AXM have seen my ticket always checked, but the other way, it should be remembered that there are barriers at Central and St Davids. Also, as a pensioner, I only travel after the streets have become "well-aired"!
In the easterly direction and from the east, the situation requiring good customer service is as I described. It's the same from Weymouth. I now travel to Gatwick from Dorchester via Barnham and drive to Dorchester. There is the iffy service of SN from Southampton to Victoria to cope with, but the OBSs on SN are as helpful as the guards on SWR. One I spoke to had been a guard grade before and he did look out to make sure there were no incidents at stops, even with DCO in operation. Again, they have to be checking for revenue due to lack of barriers.

 

[Kite159]

You know, I worded my question so carefully in fear of upsetting some of the know it alls on this forum if what I asked wasn't true at all. Turns out I really didn't need to.

I can certainly agree with SWR more, having so many trains calling at all stops as far as Wimbledon needs as short dwell times as possible. 5-10 seconds added with the better acceleration the 701s will have really could add up. Perhaps that could be the solution, guards but they don't operate the doors, would RMT accept that?

Having the driver opening the doors will breach their 'policy' of having the guards controlling the doors (the same policy they broke with the Greater Anglia & Merseyrail deals so in my eyes isn't worth the value of the piece of paper it is written on).

Driver release, guard closes works without incident on other TOCs

 

[superalbs]

I would be interested just how cosy some of these replacement buses are. At our end, we have a 'semi fast', stopping between Yeovil Jcn and Honiton then non-stop to Exeter, and a stopper from Honiton to Exeter. When I write "a", I cannot imagine, even during half term holidays, that one such bus would be anywhere near adequate for through pax changing onto them at Yeovil, especially as there is only half the frequency (2 hourly). I wondered if anyone has observed what's happening on the ground.

This is how busy it is...that's right, nobody at all, bar me.

 

[Goldfish62]

You know, I worded my question so carefully in fear of upsetting some of the know it alls on this forum if what I asked wasn't true at all. Turns out I really didn't need to.

I can certainly agree with SWR more, having so many trains calling at all stops as far as Wimbledon needs as short dwell times as possible. 5-10 seconds added with the better acceleration the 701s will have really could add up. Perhaps that could be the solution, guards but they don't operate the doors, would RMT accept that?

RMT appear to have stated that they'd accept the same deal as GA, ie door open and close handled by the driver, as long as a guard is guaranteed on every train.

 

[Goldfish62]

Having the driver opening the doors will breach their 'policy' of having the guards controlling the doors (the same policy they broke with the Greater Anglia & Merseyrail deals so in my eyes isn't worth the value of the piece of paper it is written on).

Driver release, guard closes works without incident on other TOCs

Given the number of trains where this now happens it's the standard method of operation in the UK.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Having the driver opening the doors will breach their 'policy' of having the guards controlling the doors (the same policy they broke with the Greater Anglia & Merseyrail deals so in my eyes isn't worth the value of the piece of paper it is written on).

Driver release, guard closes works without incident on other TOCs

Driver open, driver close does also works and is already used by Southern on overlapping parts of the network without issue.

I believe though that SWR is proposing that the driver opens and closes doors on the new stock, hence why they want to run DOO in exceptional circumstances. I know at Portsmouth Harbour and Portsmouth and Southsea they already have the CD and RA indicators in place I wonder if other parts of their network have them as well.

 

[Wychwood93]

Interesting. My admittedly occasional trips east from AXM have seen my ticket always checked, but the other way, it should be remembered that there are barriers at Central and St Davids. Also, as a pensioner, I only travel after the streets have become "well-aired"!
In the easterly direction and from the east, the situation requiring good customer service is as I described. It's the same from Weymouth. I now travel to Gatwick from Dorchester via Barnham and drive to Dorchester. There is the iffy service of SN from Southampton to Victoria to cope with, but the OBSs on SN are as helpful as the guards on SWR. One I spoke to had been a guard grade before and he did look out to make sure there were no incidents at stops, even with DCO in operation. Again, they have to be checking for revenue due to lack of barriers.

I have very similar views with regard to the Southern OBS grade - they do regular ticket checks - few barriers on the smaller West Coastway stations - and they appear friendly and helpful. I hasten to add that many guards are the same.

 

[Helvellyn]

I believe though that SWR is proposing that the driver opens and closes doors on the new stock, hence why they want to run DOO in exceptional circumstances. I know at Portsmouth Harbour and Portsmouth and Southsea they already have the CD and RA indicators in place I wonder if other parts of their network have them as well.

Empty Coaching Stock moves are DOO already hence the CD and RA indicators. They are indeed across the network.

This dispute is about DOO(P) in exceptional circumstances where the P stands for passenger service trains.

 

[Carlisle]

Empty Coaching Stock moves are DOO already hence the CD and RA indicators. They are indeed across the network.

CD/RA indicators were installed on all platforms at Waterloo in 1997 for the abandoned SWT DOO scheme, they were still there a year or two ago, not sure if that’s still true

 

[HowardGWR]

This is how busy it is...that's right, nobody at all, bar me.

Which service was this meeting and was it the "local" via Feniton or the Yeovil to Exeter?

 

[superalbs]

Which service was this meeting and was it the "local" via Feniton or the Yeovil to Exeter?

1320 Honiton to Exeter St Davids (local)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ship/Q12700/2018/10/24/advanced

 

[HowardGWR]

1320 Honiton to Exeter St Davids (local)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ship/Q12700/2018/10/24/advanced

Ah, thanks. Could it not be that folk on these have recourse to perhaps better buses or perhaps they just decided it was half term and took the kids to Pecorama?

 

[NoOnesFool]

You don’t need to be trained to pick up a newspaper or crisp packets or an empty lager can and toss it in the bin.

You would still need to be aware of how diseases spread - HIV for example. I often come across used plasters when I'm doing a rubbish run and there is a chance (but thankfully not yet) that I could come across a syringe, and I don't fancy spending a month on PEP.

 

[Goldfish62]

CD/RA indicators were installed on all platforms at Waterloo in 1997 for the abandoned SWT DOO scheme, they were still there a year or two ago, not sure if that’s still true

Last time I looked the equipment was still there, also at Clapham Junction.

 

[Twotwo]

Pure speculation, but I got a feeling there will be a lot of strikes in December. Can’t see the managers all queueing up to work Xmas eve/New Years eve for example....

 

[Goldfish62]

Pure speculation, but I got a feeling there will be a lot of strikes in December. Can’t see the managers all queueing up to work Xmas eve/New Years eve for example....

There was a strike on New Year's Day and a normal Sunday service operated.

 

[RPI]

Interesting. My admittedly occasional trips east from AXM have seen my ticket always checked, but the other way, it should be remembered that there are barriers at Central and St Davids. Also, as a pensioner, I only travel after the streets have become "well-aired"!
In the easterly direction and from the east, the situation requiring good customer service is as I described. It's the same from Weymouth. I now travel to Gatwick from Dorchester via Barnham and drive to Dorchester. There is the iffy service of SN from Southampton to Victoria to cope with, but the OBSs on SN are as helpful as the guards on SWR. One I spoke to had been a guard grade before and he did look out to make sure there were no incidents at stops, even with DCO in operation. Again, they have to be checking for revenue due to lack of barriers.

Having barriers should not stop anyone carrying out ticket checks, passengers can travel in from the surrounding stations on the Barnstaple/Exmouth/Paignton lines travelling to stations on the west of England lines, people will buy a St David's to Central (or vice versa) ticket to get through the gates, passengers may also wish to see the guard for connections/assistance, there also seems to be quite a flow to and from Pinhoe from stations East of there.