SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[Bromley boy]

Some weeks I spent less than 10 hours on a train working

Sounds like bliss, and yet you quit, so it evidently isn’t. From your other postings you also appear to be applying for guards’ jobs and yet here you are berating your former OBS colleagues on a discission forum. Sorry but there’s something not quite stacking up there.

OBSs are rostered to trains for the vast majority of their shifts so I’m not sure how you got away with less than 10 hours working trains per week.

the rest of the time in mess rooms listening to people moaning constantly and finding new excuses or ways to justify doing bugger all.

I can imagine you weren’t too popular with attitudes like that. Best of out of it, eh?

 

[farleigh]

I think Emmsie is entitled to her point of view and I find her posts illuminating. They have started a very interesting discussion here. I would not find sitting in a mess room for long periods 'bliss' but guess others might. I like to be busy and productive.

It is possible to wish to be a guard/OBS without thinking that everybody else in the role is a saint. I am sure there are excellent people in the role and also people who are workshy. You get that in nearly all jobs.

Bramley boy - your posts are also interesting to read and illuminating but I am not sure in the way that you wish. No criticism of you but you do paint a picture of the railway being quite insular and reluctant to be flexible.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think Emmsie is entitled to her point of view and I find her posts illuminating. They have started a very interesting discussion here. I would not find sitting in a mess room for long periods 'bliss' but guess others might. I like to be busy and productive.

It is possible to wish to be a guard/OBS without thinking that everybody else in the role is a saint. I am sure there are excellent people in the role and also people who are workshy. You get that in nearly all jobs.

Yes indeed, but inferences should be drawn from the fact she is apparently a disgruntled ex employee.

Trust me when I say that few front line staff spend their days sitting around in mess rooms these days, unless they’re off track or similar.

Bramley boy - your posts are also interesting to read and illuminating but I am not sure in the way that you wish. No criticism of you but you do paint a picture of the railway being quite insular and reluctant to be flexible.

That’s certainly not my intention. It’s no different to any other line of work. We all have our own jobs to do and it’s not unreasonable to suppose that TOCs should employ sufficient cleaning staff at the times and locations needed to ensure trains are presentable.

Yours,

BrOmley boy

 

[Emmsie]

I think it is hilarious to see people berating some rail staff for not walking through the train clearing litter up. When I've only got a limited amount of turnaround time where after driving for upwards of two hours I have to use the toilet, get myself any refreshments, actually change ends and then set my cab up how exactly am I supposed to walk through the train clearing up the vast amounts of coffee cups and takeaway thrown around the carriage? I find it amazing how certain individuals on this forum can attack rail staff without context. It definitely seems to be a recurring theme.

A lot of TOCs are starting to have train presentation people at terminating stations to clear rubbish. But you find that turnaround times are so tight that the next departure is advertised so quickly that they have no chance to get through the train. I've known commuters be waiting on the platform as I have arrived at my terminus because they know exactly which platform their train will be on, to then complain the train is full of rubbish even though they haven't given the TP staff chance to get on and clear the rubbish.

I would like to say that the TP staff and guards do a thoroughly good job in keeping trains clean. I've seen plenty of guards clear trains of rubbish. The state some trains go into depots at night in is absolutely disgraceful. I cannot believe some people would leave their homes in the state they leave trains.

Not aimed at Drivers but guards that should be walking through the train anyway. I don't really care if other guards/OBS clear the train, I just objected to being asked not to myself on the grounds that it would be expected of all of them. I'd sooner find something productive to do and as you so rightly point out, sometimes there is only a few minutes turnaround and I'd rather the cleaners do the toilets, one job I'm not prepared to do without gloves.

 

[farleigh]

Fair play to you both - good discussion.

Sorry about the name mis-spell.

 

[bb21]

Messrooms can be very territorial, and it has been for as long as I can tell.

 

[ComUtoR]

Messrooms can be very territorial, and it has been for as long as I can tell.

Not just limited to the 'Railway' either. I have been in various sectors in my time and all the mess rooms seem to have some form of pecking order and invisible social rules. As a Manager at one place the mess room was almost off limits for me. The employees felt that I was encroaching on their territory and was interrupting their personal time. All I wanted was a cuppa :/

From sitting in someones favorite chair to setting the temperature for the aircon; mess rooms all over have been a battlefield.

 

[Emmsie]

Yes indeed, but inferences should be drawn from the fact she is apparently a disgruntled ex employee.

Trust me when I say that few front line staff spend their days sitting around in mess rooms these days, unless they’re off track or similar.



That’s certainly not my intention. It’s no different to any other line of work. We all have our own jobs to do and it’s not unreasonable to suppose that TOCs should employ sufficient cleaning staff at the times and locations needed to ensure trains are presentable.

Yours,

BrOmley boy

Not disgruntled at all, I made a decision to leave and at that time it was the right decision. A lot of the OBS are great and I got on with them particularly as I would happily swap a spare for a diagram. As for hardly working, that was a combination of poorly planned diagrams and cancelled trains that would result in lots of PASS trains and big gaps in the diagram, other peoples idea of bliss but not mine, I'm happy to work, I cetainly was never stood down as you imply.

 

[bb21]

All I wanted was a cuppa :/

But you will be hearing all the gossip about yourself as well.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not just limited to the 'Railway' either. I have been in various sectors in my time and all the mess rooms seem to have some form of pecking order and invisible social rules. As a Manager at one place the mess room was almost off limits for me. The employees felt that I was encroaching on their territory and was interrupting their personal time. All I wanted was a cuppa :/

From sitting in someones favorite chair to setting the temperature for the aircon; mess rooms all over have been a battlefield.

Primitive. In bus industry canteens you will commonly find managers and supervisors sat among drivers and sometimes playing pool within them. The bus industry used to be like rail, but that was decades ago.

 

[Bromley boy]

Messrooms can be very territorial, and it has been for as long as I can tell.

They can indeed, but it’s rare to spend hours sitting in them. Numbers are simply too close to the bone. At my place even the cover turn (which rarely comes up) usually ends up with a job or part of one.

For what it’s worth I’d much rather be out driving than sitting about.

 

[ComUtoR]

Primitive. In bus industry canteens you will commonly find managers and supervisors sat among drivers and sometimes playing pool within them. The bus industry used to be like rail, but that was decades ago.

Phew, lucky I wasn't talking about rail then. One of my Management team offered to make me a coffee just the other day.

 

[farleigh]

I hate the innate distrust that exists in many industries between 'management' and other staff. In a healthy working environment, all staff members should be valued and back-biting eradicated by a healthy open culture of discourse.

 

[Bromley boy]

I hate the innate distrust that exists in many industries between 'management' and other staff. In a healthy working environment, all staff members should be valued and back-biting eradicated by a healthy open culture of discourse.

I completely agree. The railway has a very, very long way to go in this respect.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've been on both sides of the desk and that innate distrust exists on both sides. Management is often derided and vilified and employees viewed as slovenly and lazy.

It also comes down to human behavior. We all contribute to the relationship in some way or another.

Not forgetting that someone may need to remove you from your role or put you out of a job and regardless of any open and honest culture, you will resent them for doing so and hold them responsible. It's not nice having that power over someone either. In the same vein, no matter how much you want to help someone you are often forced into certain action because of the rules, regs etc or someone else above you making a decision you need to enforce. There will always be some form of barrier between staff and management. I was a Manager at a company who had a policy of openness and promoted a friendly employee relationship. Then I was accused as being over friendly and not 'professional' enough.

Its a hard line to tread and it doesn't work in every industry. Rail, or otherwise.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not disgruntled at all, I made a decision to leave and at that time it was the right decision. A lot of the OBS are great and I got on with them particularly as I would happily swap a spare for a diagram. As for hardly working, that was a combination of poorly planned diagrams and cancelled trains that would result in lots of PASS trains and big gaps in the diagram, other peoples idea of bliss but not mine, I'm happy to work, I cetainly was never stood down as you imply.

That’s fine and you’re fully entitled to your views. I have no particular horse in the race, and no grudge against you, but I’m slightly unsure as to your motives.

As I say, I would urge anyone reading your posts to reflect on the fact you have left the OBS post, despite claiming it’s a cushy number, and are now apparently applying for guards’ roles.

You also paint a picture of the role that is very different to other longstanding guards (now OBSs) who’ve posted on here - sarahj for one.

 

[CC 72100]

without being expected to pick up newspapers or other detritus left by others, thanks very much!

Heck, some crew can't even be bothered to clear away their own rubbish before we start on cleaning up after passengers!

 

[Bromley boy]

Heck, some crew can't even be bothered to clear away their own rubbish before we start on cleaning up after passengers!

Tell me about it - bloody inconsiderate and a pet hate of mine. Most know better, thankfully.

 

[CC 72100]

Tell me about it - bloody inconsiderate and a pet hate of mine. Most know better, thankfully.

Especially when an empty coffee cup makes a great temporary waste receptacle, that you can use until you go past the bin you have to pass before leaving the train!

 

[Bromley boy]

Especially when an empty coffee cup makes a great temporary waste receptacle, that you can use until you go past the bin you have to pass before leaving the train!

Just be grateful it wasn’t full of urine, like one I once came across, although I’m sure we’ve all been there.

P*ssing out of the cab door is the best policy when it’s dark (apologies for TMI)!

 

[GB]

While not a fiddle as such that old saying "Todays fiddle tomorrows roster" seems quite apt here.

 

[Dave1987]

Not aimed at Drivers but guards that should be walking through the train anyway. I don't really care if other guards/OBS clear the train, I just objected to being asked not to myself on the grounds that it would be expected of all of them. I'd sooner find something productive to do and as you so rightly point out, sometimes there is only a few minutes turnaround and I'd rather the cleaners do the toilets, one job I'm not prepared to do without gloves.

Fair play to you. I’m sorry that your railway career doesn’t seem to have panned out that well for you. Yes there are a few people in the industry who moan and moan about the their job and the industry but they would not dare quit it. My real fear though is when Government and the accounts fail or refuse to see the value of that second person on the train and they simply see a wage bill to be gotten rid of. I think if there was some trust that they would be valued in the future people would embrace change. Unfortunately history has shown us what Government and accounts do with people they don’t consider to be essential.

 

[Bromley boy]

While not a fiddle as such that old saying "Todays fiddle tomorrows roster" seems quite apt here.

Indeed.

So does “stick a broom handle up the driver’s arse and he’ll sweep the platform as he changes ends”.

 

[LowLevel]

For what it's worth I mentioned earlier that for ex Central Trains TOC guards (and plenty of others) basic tidying (as distinct from cleaning) is in our terms and conditions listed alongside other jobs like train dispatch, ticket selling, dealing with reservations etc.

For what it's worth to prove the point... we are issued with a bin bag and a pair of latex substitute gloves in our ticket machine bags

 

[Carlisle]

I hate the innate distrust that exists in many industries between 'management' and other staff. In a healthy working environment, all staff members should be valued and back-biting eradicated by a healthy open culture of discourse.

I totally agree, but the fact a previous poster said junior TOC management unofficially advise all new staff to join a union suggests very little faith even at management level, in the system they’re actually running, therefore a complete cultural change sounds like a mammoth task.

 

[Bromley boy]

I totally agree, but the fact a previous poster said junior TOC management unofficially advise all new staff to join a union suggests very little faith even at management level, in the system they’re actually running, therefore a complete cultural change would be a mammoth task.

As someone relatively new to the railway who worked in various white collar professional roles before joining, and indeed was vehmently anti-union in my former life (my ignorance)...

I’m not some ‘70s relic, but I can honestly say you’d have to be positively certifiable to work in an operational role on the railway and not belong to a union. It’s totally different to most other industries.

 

[farleigh]

As someone relatively new to the railway who worked in various white collar professional roles before joining, and indeed was vehmently anti-union in my former life (my ignorance)...

I’m not some ‘70s relic, but I can honestly say you’d have to be positively certifiable to work in an operational role on the railway and not belong to a union. It’s totally different to most other industries.

Why is that BB - to protect yourself?

 

[AlterEgo]

Guards have often (maybe not always) encouraged by managers to collect rubbish and been given no training or equipment to carry out the task safely.

You don’t need to be trained to pick up a newspaper or crisp packets or an empty lager can and toss it in the bin.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why is that BB - to protect yourself?

Yes protection is a large part of it. If I drag someone off a platform due to the crap, grainy DOO monitors I’m given to work with, I’ll need some backing. Just as if I break a leg in 2 places when some rotten wooden stairs collapse beneath me in badly lit sidings (happened recently to a driver at my place).

Another highlight was waking out to prep a train at 0430 during the recent snow. Still dark, the walkway hadn’t been gritted, was bloody slippery and inches from a juice rail. The TOC values it’s staff doesn’t it. What a joke.

The union is also the accepted method to feed issues back to the employer.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it is hilarious to see people berating some rail staff for not walking through the train clearing litter up. When I've only got a limited amount of turnaround time where after driving for upwards of two hours I have to use the toilet, get myself any refreshments, actually change ends and then set my cab up how exactly am I supposed to walk through the train clearing up the vast amounts of coffee cups and takeaway thrown around the carriage?

The comments are in reaction to a post stating that one might actively refuse to pick up litter out of a point of principle. Nobody is suggesting anyone go out of their way to do this.

I find it amazing how certain individuals on this forum can attack rail staff without context. It definitely seems to be a recurring theme.

There’s a roughly equal balance of comments on this forum both in favour of and against rail staff. There are a lot of comments I’ve seen from rail staff which are quite blatantly anti-passenger and misanthropic.

I find it amusing to see posts like this from time to time, either from passengers or staff, claiming victimhood.