Northern in crisis talks?

[yorksrob]

Many of the old Serco Abellio managers jumped ship or were pushed out. Senior management teams are very different now.

That's interesting to know.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The strike will continue until the DfT decide otherwise. The RMT seem willing to accept a Greater Anglia or ScotRail style solution. Northern probably would offer that but they can as their political overlords (that same Government everyone wants to take charge) won't let them. So we're stuck....

Northern have offered to discuss a a Greater Anglia type deal but the RMT have declined.

 

[Class37.4]

With regard to the previous franchise, find me one that doesn't involve overcrowding. Old Northern's trains generally turned up, usually on time. Their rolling stock didn't seem to be poorly maintained or looked after in comparison to any other franchise. Their facelift of the 144's for example, gave them quite a nice ambience. They even got some additional ones, which isn't bad for a no growth franchise.

In terms of BR, I travelled regularly in the South East in the late 1980's and 90's and at the time:

• There wasn't an industrial action that lasted over a year and ballsed up every weekend service for several months.
• There weren't engineering works that blocked off every route between my home town and London (as an example) for every weekend for over a year (and they were rebuilding the lines from my home town to London for channel tunnel services at the time).
• There wasn't a timetable change that saw services regularly cancelled/short formed/turned back early leaving passengers stranded for hours on end half a year later.

I reiterate, I have never experienced a year of railway travel as woeful as this one.

Well we are getting off the point so I won’t Labour it, but that was not my experience of BR, and must have travelled on different trains to me under the old franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

What a surprise. The swashbucklers of free enterprise, rather than take a well-deserved financial hit as a result of their inability to run a rail service, shake their begging bowls at the taxpayer once more. How much longer will we persist with this charade ?

To be fair franchises are let on the basis that if they do better than expected DfT reduce their subsidy/increase their premiums and if they do worse than expected DfT increase their subsidy/decrease their premiums. No surprise Arriva are doing it given First, Virgin, National Express, Deep Sea Containers (GNER's parent) and Stagecoach have all done it before. The current Northern franchise has also been let on the basis certain routes would be electrified by December 2017 - which they weren't and that DMUs transferred from GWR to Northern in mid-2017 - which they didn't.

If DfT want them to run franchises like proper businesses they need much longer franchise terms so they can invest any excesses in to the franchise and see a return on that investment - old Northern regularly saw excesses but the passengers didn't see any real investment because of it.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The rush to introduce DOO has not helped matters though it could have been dealt with a lot better. For a start they could of introduced the new trains first using conventional methods, negotiated with ASLEF and then pushed to introduce DOO in the next franchise once the stock was compliant. Now it seems they are waiting until the time they can impose DOO which is still some time away.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Meanwhile, TPE having insisted on the headline 6tph, continue to neglect the local stations in the core and get off scot-free because for the last decade and a half "Northern" has been a byword for failure. We all used to moan about the "no growth" franchise of old, but other than the headline-grabbing new trains (which were necessary due to PRM anyway) there's very little difference between Arriva and Serco/Abellio. Just some added industrial dispute thanks the an edict from the DfT.

Once again, the blame lies at Grayling's door.

 

[northwichcat]

The rush to introduce DOO has not helped matters though it could have been dealt with a lot better. For a start they could of introduced the new trains first using conventional methods, negotiated with ASLEF and then pushed to introduce DOO in the next franchise once the stock was compliant. Now it seems they are waiting until the time they can impose DOO which is still some time away.

Now there's a cunning method DfT could used there. They can instruct the franchise holder to do something on behalf of the next franchise - like start the procurement process for new trains or submit a track access application, so presumably they could also have do that with agreeing DOO terms with ASLEF. However, the RMT members can only strike against their current employer.

However, as we know with the East Coast franchise the Conservatives want to make sure their rail plans are set firmly in stone so they will likely remain in place even if Labour become the governing party and planning to introduce DCO/DOO on Northern in 2025 under a future franchise wouldn't achieve that.

 

[northwichcat]

Meanwhile, TPE having insisted on the headline 6tph, continue to neglect the local stations in the core and get off scot-free because for the last decade and a half "Northern" has been a byword for failure. We all used to moan about the "no growth" franchise of old, but other than the headline-grabbing new trains (which were necessary due to PRM anyway) there's very little difference between Arriva and Serco/Abellio. Just some added industrial dispute thanks the an edict from the DfT.

Once again, the blame lies at Grayling's door.

Remember Patrick McLoughlin was in charge when the franchise terms were agreed upon. Grayling's responsible for managing the chaos and finding a solution (which I accept he hasn't done) opposed to being responsible for Network Rail having agreed deadlines they had no chance of meeting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The rush to introduce DOO has not helped matters though it could have been dealt with a lot better. For a start they could of introduced the new trains first using conventional methods, negotiated with ASLEF and then pushed to introduce DOO in the next franchise once the stock was compliant. Now it seems they are waiting until the time they can impose DOO which is still some time away.

The new trains are being introduced with conventional driver and guard operation. If I recall correctly, the DfT has required that all new rolling stock is set up to be able to be worked by either method of working in order for maximum flexibility. (Though I don't know how this would apply for the TPE LHCS - I very much doubt that is to be DOO capable).

 

[northwichcat]

The new trains are being introduced with conventional driver and guard operation. If I recall correctly, the DfT has required that all new rolling stock is set up to be able to be worked by either method of working in order for maximum flexibility. (Though I don't know how this would apply for the TPE LHCS - I very much doubt that is to be DOO capable).

DOO capable is for multiple units only and we're pretty much at the stage now where DfT don't have to mandate DOO capable as the ROSCOs will want it to ensure their rolling stock is future proofed.

 

[Starmill]

I think it is fair to say that West Midlands Trains is working, as is Merseyrail, as is Virgin Trains West Coast.

West Midlands Trains have delayed their timetable introduction significantly, Merseyrail spent months crippled by industrial action and Virgin Trains have been in direct award for years with little incentive to improve or change, and few new ideas for growth. All three perhaps are meeting minimum expectations but you can't argue that they're really exploiting their full potential.

 

[Carlisle]

The real problem is that it's not real privatisation - that's not the TOC's fault - it's a pseudo/pretend privatisation where the govt/quangos are in control.

I completely agree, in the real privatised world redundancy notices would have allready been issued to those guards refusing to sign new contracts and the process of recruiting new staff would all ready be under way, and drivers fully aware they’ll follow suit if the refuse to cooperate.

As for the other problems ,they should almost all eventually be compensated for as in the main not northern fault

 

[Harpers Tate]

Yes, indeed. Pretty much anywhere else, except the Railway. It's commonplace for staff to be required to reapply for jobs with attendant new T&C.

 

[Mag_seven]

Yes, indeed. Pretty much anywhere else, except the Railway. It's commonplace for staff to be required to reapply for jobs with attendant new T&C.

I've worked in the Railway industry and have had to re-apply for my job several times due to reorganisations complete with new T&C's.

 

[Starmill]

The new trains are being introduced with conventional driver and guard operation.

Where did you get this information?

 

[B&I]

The strike will continue until the DfT decide otherwise. The RMT seem willing to accept a Greater Anglia or ScotRail style solution. Northern probably would offer that but they can as their political overlords (that same Government everyone wants to take charge) won't let them. So we're stuck....

Personally I'd prefer a different government to take charge to the one we have at present.

 

[B&I]

To be fair franchises are let on the basis that if they do better than expected DfT reduce their subsidy/increase their premiums and if they do worse than expected DfT increase their subsidy/decrease their premiums. No surprise Arriva are doing it given First, Virgin, National Express, Deep Sea Containers (GNER's parent) and Stagecoach have all done it before. The current Northern franchise has also been let on the basis certain routes would be electrified by December 2017 - which they weren't and that DMUs transferred from GWR to Northern in mid-2017 - which they didn't.

If DfT want them to run franchises like proper businesses they need much longer franchise terms so they can invest any excesses in to the franchise and see a return on that investment - old Northern regularly saw excesses but the passengers didn't see any real investment because of it.

DfT clearly don't want them run like real businesses. So why do we waste money on pretending they are ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where did you get this information?

From the DOO thread, if I recall correctly.

 

[ainsworth74]

DfT clearly don't want them run like real businesses. So why do we waste money on pretending they are ?

Because it's politically convinent. When it all goes wrong the Government of the day can blame the nasty private companies and deflect the blame (and the passengers and main media outlets are too bamboozled by the complexities to realise) and when it does go right they can swoop in and take the credit.

It's a cracking wheeze for the politicians.

 

[B&I]

Because it's politically convinent. When it all goes wrong the Government of the day can blame the nasty private companies and deflect the blame (and the passengers and main media outlets are too bamboozled by the complexities to realise) and when it does go right they can swoop in and take the credit.

It's a cracking wheeze for the politicians.

You know that, and I.know that. I was just waiting for someone else to explain how this set-up benefits railway users

 

[ComUtoR]

You know that, and I.know that. I was just waiting for someone else to explain how this set-up benefits railway users

How much do you reckon the ticket price would be if the TOCs didn't have a subsidy and each TOC was run like a real business ?

 

[ainsworth74]

You know that, and I.know that. I was just waiting for someone else to explain how this set-up benefits railway users

(Imagine the following said in the same way Sir Humphrey would in Yes Minister)

My dear fellow what on earth makes you think its supposed to benefit railway users...

 

[Bertie the bus]

Because it's politically convinent. When it all goes wrong the Government of the day can blame the nasty private companies and deflect the blame (and the passengers and main media outlets are too bamboozled by the complexities to realise) and when it does go right they can swoop in and take the credit.

It's a cracking wheeze for the politicians.

Except that is the exact opposite of reality. TOCs always try to take the credit for enhancements paid for with public money, see Virgin Trains with the WCML upgrade as a perfect example, but immediately blame Network Rail or the govenment for everything that goes wrong or people complain about.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, indeed. Pretty much anywhere else, except the Railway. It's commonplace for staff to be required to reapply for jobs with attendant new T&C.

TUPE is pretty well known and not specific to 'The Railway'

 

[northwichcat]

TUPE is pretty well known and not specific to 'The Railway'

You've gone off on a tangent. TUPE is protection of employment rights when your employer changes but your role is still required by the new employer and indeed it's not specific to the railway as I've had TUPE protection twice. However, what's being discussed here is guards remaining on guard contracts when the operator may not require guards any more. Outside the rail industry it's likely guards would be given notice of potential redundancies and then offered an alternative role in lieu of redundancy.

 

[northwichcat]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...eks-help-prop-uk-arm-owns-northern-franchise/

Bit more detail on Rail News, claiming The Telegraph as the source

THE German state railway Deutsche Bahn is reported to be in urgent talks with the Department for Transport over revenue shortfalls at the Northern franchise.

The franchise has suffered this year from the failure of its May timetable. It blamed late-running electrification work for some of the disruption, when plans to run electric trains had to be abandoned at short notice. It is also embroiled in a bitter dispute about on-train staffing with the RMT, and a series of 24-hour strikes is continuing.

The Daily Telegraph claims that DB is trying to renegotiate the subsidy profile included in the contract. Under the terms agreed by DB’s subsidiary Arriva, the amount of subsidy is suppose to fall each year, but the continuing disruption on Northern has dented predicted revenues, and the subsidy has allegedly risen to £282 million this year.

Passengers are certainly unhappy with Northern’s performance. One responder to a Transport Focus survey published last week said: ‘I no longer have any confidence in the Northern network. I have only used the train three times since May and feel trapped in my home because I have not been able to get out and about as I would have done. I feel really depressed about the rail services and am not sure whether I will ever return to routinely travelling by Northern trains.’

The Department for Transport has refused to confirm or deny the reports of spiralling losses at Northern. A spokeswoman told Railnews that ‘we do not comment on financial discussions with franchise holders’, although she did confirm that the Department has regular meetings with all franchisees. She was unwilling to be pressed further on what those meetings involve, even in principle, although it is already known that each franchise has an effective ‘account manager’ within the Department who is the key contact.

However, a spokesman for Northern said: ‘We are delivering on all of our commitments and are investing more than £600m to transform local rail in the North — with new trains, better stations, more services and faster journeys for our customers. This is the biggest investment into rail in the North in a generation. But the franchise has faced a number of exceptional circumstances, notably the ongoing, late delivery of infrastructure upgrades. These delays were out of our control and have impacted growth in passenger numbers. As is standard practice, we are in constant dialogue with the Department for Transport about how to improve journeys for customers in the North.’

The RMT has been demonstrating outside Parliament in London today on the 25th anniversary of the 1993 Railways Act, which legalised privatisation. The union has just announced more strikes on Northern on every Saturday until the end of the year.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said Northern is a ‘basket case rail franchise sucking up well over a quarter of a billion pounds a year in public bail-outs while wrecking service standards, ripping up the safety rule book and threatening to throw the guards off over half their trains. This scandal needs to end immediately and that means the Government taking immediate action to bring the Northern routes into direct public ownership and control with the services run on the basis of safety, security and access and not private profit. That means a guard on every train and proper staffing at station level as well.

‘With reports that TransPennine Express are in similar dire straits this national disgrace on our privatised railways, coming exactly 25 years after the Act was passed ushering in the Great British Rail Rip-Off, has to be called to a halt before irreversible damage is done.

‘If Virgin can be kicked off the East Coast and the lines returned to public ownership there is no excuse whatsoever for dragging out the death throes of Arriva on Northern Rail.’

Meanwhile, Labour shadow transport secretary Andy McDonald said: ‘Twenty-five years on it’s clear that rail privatisation has been a catastrophic failure, with the taxpayer putting in even more money to the privatised system than when it was nationalised.’

Railnews asked the Rail Delivery Group to comment on Labour and RMT claims that rail fares have risen by 20 per cent in real terms since January 1995, but it has not done so.

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2018/11/05-northern-in-crisis-talks-over.html

Interesting Mick Cash calls the franchise a basket case getting too much money from the state but claims it would be better as a state owned franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've gone off on a tangent. TUPE is protection of employment rights when your employer changes but your role is still required by the new employer and indeed it's not specific to the railway as I've had TUPE protection twice. However, what's being discussed here is guards remaining on guard contracts when the operator may not require guards any more. Outside the rail industry it's likely guards would be given notice of potential redundancies and then offered an alternative role in lieu of redundancy.

No, my reference to TUPE was not about guards, it was about management.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting Mick Cash calls the franchise a basket case getting too much money from the state

I thought the whole point was to try to cover that up so that there would be no service cuts and resultant job losses? They continue to surprise me with their

 

[theblackwatch]

I've worked in the Railway industry and have had to re-apply for my job several times due to reorganisations complete with new T&C's.

It only appears to apply to TOC traincrew (who are also the most vocal!). I'm aware of office staff and FOC crews who have had reoragnisations, redundancies and changes to Terms & Conditions.

 

[northwichcat]

How much do you reckon the ticket price would be if the TOCs didn't have a subsidy and each TOC was run like a real business ?

Very variable, like bus fares are currently. For instance, Altrincham to Manchester costs £5 return off-peak on Metrolink, so Northern need to offer something cheaper if they want passengers who might otherwise use Metrolink given Metrolink operates more frequently and the journey times aren't that different. On the other hand Northwich to Chester costs £5.50 on the bus but the train is much faster so they can get away with charging more, then Knutsford to Chester would involve multiple buses and take half the day to get there so they aren't competing with the bus so they can pretty much charge what they can get away with.