Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[krus_aragon]

Oh my god, Failing Grayling is just outside the window of the 323 I am sat on on platform 2.

Every time I see that nickname on this forum (and misread it as Flailing) I picture him sticking his head out of a droplight and screaming "My Lordz" or similar...

 

[notlob.divad]

Oh my god, Failing Grayling is just outside the window of the 323 I am sat on on platform 2. Press everywhere. That explains why there is a pair of pacers parked up with a 195 on the new platform. Trying to make the useless belter look like he has achieved something.

Great, so instead of it running fault free accumulation miles to get it into service ASAP. It has been commandeered for a politico's photo oppurtunity.

 

[LowLevel]

There's a video circulating on social media suggesting the welcome on arrival was less than friendly.

 

[krus_aragon]

There's a video circulating on social media suggesting the welcome on arrival was less than friendly.

Hopefully it wasn't as bad as the Duke of Wellington's reception at Manchester in 1830...

 

[fowler9]

Every time I see that nickname on this forum (and misread it as Flailing) I picture him sticking his head out of a droplight and screaming "My Lordz" or similar...

Would that he was behaving in such an understandable manner. Ha ha.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Oh my god, Failing Grayling is just outside the window of the 323 I am sat on on platform 2. Press everywhere. That explains why there is a pair of pacers parked up with a 195 on the new platform. Trying to make the useless belter look like he has achieved something.

Looks like Steve Rotheram (Metro Mayor) and Louise Ellman (ex-chair of Transport Select Committee and local MP) were there to join him in the unveiling of a plaque for the completion of the upgrade of Lime St.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...i-million-pound-liverpool-lime-street-upgrade

 

[edwin_m]

I rather hope the pair of Pacers was the special service to return him to London...

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Looks like Steve Rotheram (Metro Mayor) and Louise Ellman (ex-chair of Transport Select Committee and local MP) were there to join him in the unveiling of a plaque for the completion of the upgrade of Lime St.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...i-million-pound-liverpool-lime-street-upgrade

Like they had anything at all to do with any of it ...

 

[Class 170101]

I am surprised he bothered to go up there at all, after all shouldn't he be supporting his boss in Parliament over the mess that's called Brexit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Like they had anything at all to do with any of it ...

Well hopefully your boss Martin Frobisher (not in picture, how odd), whose project it was, had the opportunity to bend their ears for the future.
On time and on budget is a good result for NR.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My boss? No, not him, we don't work for the same company.

 

[Camden]

Like they had anything at all to do with any of it ...

I would argue that he has more right to be there to make the points he did as the city's leader, than an organisation that merely implemented the biggest transformation the city's main station has seen since the 19th century (their words)... totalling just £140m (most if not all of which had to be funded out of locally assigned resource), which most people using the station would barely notice, and which only provides a small increase in capacity to a well under-served destination.

Thanks and taking credit requires doing something above and beyond the required and well-overdue (well-overdue highlighted by the wall collapse and the discovery of severely corroded gantries).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My boss? No, not him, we don't work for the same company.

Ah. My mistake.
Anyway, NR were at the party!

 

[GW43125]

Oh my god, Failing Grayling is just outside the window of the 323 I am sat on on platform 2. Press everywhere. That explains why there is a pair of pacers parked up with a 195 on the new platform. Trying to make the useless belter look like he has achieved something.

Moon him*!
I'll get me coat
*Other actions or hand gestures are available.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a footnote to this project:
Leaving platform 6 at Lime St today (the one that goes though an arch at the country end), I noticed it had no fewer than THREE banner repeater signals before the starting signal near the arch.
Is this some kind of record in the UK? I can't think of a similar case elsewhere.
Might be needed at long, highly curved platforms like Bristol TM perhaps.
Presumably it is because of the reverse curvature of the line, but it must have meant increased cost to install them all.
None of the other Lime St platforms have that many.

 

[driver_m]

Just a footnote to this project:
Leaving platform 6 at Lime St today (the one that goes though an arch at the country end), I noticed it had no fewer than THREE banner repeater signals before the starting signal near the arch.
Is this some kind of record in the UK? I can't think of a similar case elsewhere.
Might be needed at long, highly curved platforms like Bristol TM perhaps.
Presumably it is because of the reverse curvature of the line, but it must have meant increased cost to install them all.
None of the other Lime St platforms have that many.

Signal sighting issues. Lime St only has us using the RA indicators which obviously can only be cleared with a clear aspect. The other services still use 2 on the buzzer and dispatch staff. The banners help all them .

 

[edwin_m]

If the driver of a short train against the stops can't see the platform starter then a banner is needed. They can't just set off down the platform until they can see the signal, as something may be signalled to arrive on the same platform. If I recall correctly drivers aren't allowed to treat a lit OFF indicator as confirmation the signal is off.

 

[Foggycorner]

As the Off indication is only lit when the signal is Off whats the point of it if its not taken as proof that the signal is Off

 

[fowler9]

Just a footnote to this project:
Leaving platform 6 at Lime St today (the one that goes though an arch at the country end), I noticed it had no fewer than THREE banner repeater signals before the starting signal near the arch.
Is this some kind of record in the UK? I can't think of a similar case elsewhere.
Might be needed at long, highly curved platforms like Bristol TM perhaps.
Presumably it is because of the reverse curvature of the line, but it must have meant increased cost to install them all.
None of the other Lime St platforms have that many.

6 doesn't go through the arch, 7 & 8 do. 6 still has a load of repeaters though.

 

[driver_m]

As the Off indication is only lit when the signal is Off whats the point of it if its not taken as proof that the signal is Off

Because a platform can have two off indicators. Depending on direction of travel.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

6 doesn't go through the arch, 7 & 8 do. 6 still has a load of repeaters though.

Yes, it's the adjacent arch that obscures the P6 starting signal until you are very close.

 

[MichaelAMW]

As the Off indication is only lit when the signal is Off whats the point of it if its not taken as proof that the signal is Off

I believe it's to do with clarity for drivers. Whilst the "Off" indicators are reliable, drivers are only expected to observe one type of repeater, a banner repeater. Starting from rest at a terminus it makes no real difference as platform staff, guard and driver all have plenty of time to see what's going on. However, I imagine that gets a lot more difficult if you're passing through a platform at 70mph, where it would be harder to spot an "Off" indicator. It leaves me with the question as to why banner repeaters aren't just used everywhere, if platform staff are sometimes expected to observe them. I suspect the answer is that there are locations where the banner repeater is before the platform, or at least not far enough along the platform, so a second indication is needed for platform staff or guard.

I think there are three banners on platform 1 at Paddington.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are lineside signals on platforms on the rail network in Sydney which are explicitly labelled "Guards Signal".
I think they have a white aspect.

 

[Foggycorner]

Because a platform can have two off indicators. Depending on direction of travel.

Each Off indicator is for a specific signal so I would think that a good driver will learn that when route learning

 

[driver_m]

Each Off indicator is for a specific signal so I would think that a good driver will learn that when route learning

Right let's stop that kind of talk right now. We're all good drivers, we're tested to the max and I wouldn't want to share a track with an incompetent one. Off indicators are primarily for assisting on platform dispatch. Use Earlestown pl.4 or 5 as an example They're for the guard to know that they can commence platform duties, shut the doors and give the driver the 'ready to start' safe in the knowledge that they're not dispatching against a red which is on one of the severest bends in the country. That still doesn't absolve a driver's responsibility to make sure they don't go against a red. But as a driver I have my knowledge to know the individual setup at all of my stops. Another example. Llandudno jn. Platform on a bend, off indicator and a separate indicator for the direction. Usually says ''off' and 'u' if I'm turning back towards Holyhead, should I take that 'off'? What if the bulb had gone in the separate indicator. What do you do if you're the guard of my train? It's not about about being 'good'. It's just rules knowledge.

 

[LowLevel]

Right let's stop that kind of talk right now. We're all good drivers, we're tested to the max and I wouldn't want to share a track with an incompetent one. Off indicators are primarily for assisting on platform dispatch. Use Earlestown pl.4 or 5 as an example They're for the guard to know that they can commence platform duties, shut the doors and give the driver the 'ready to start' safe in the knowledge that they're not dispatching against a red which is on one of the severest bends in the country. That still doesn't absolve a driver's responsibility to make sure they don't go against a red. But as a driver I have my knowledge to know the individual setup at all of my stops. Another example. Llandudno jn. Platform on a bend, off indicator and a separate indicator for the direction. Usually says ''off' and 'u' if I'm turning back towards Holyhead, should I take that 'off'? What if the bulb had gone in the separate indicator. What do you do if you're the guard of my train? It's not about about being 'good'. It's just rules knowledge.

The one shouldn't work without the other I would imagine - they should prove against each other. A lamp being out in either should result in both failing.

There are a few locations where banners aren't provided but off indicators are with poor signal sighting - Norwich is one. Platform 3 has a notoriously unreliable off indicator and the signal is very difficult indeed for both drivers and guards to pick out with a short train. Failure usually results in a phone call to the box or a long walk to check it (it's over 250 metres away!).

 

[driver_m]

The one shouldn't work without the other I would imagine - they should prove against each other. A lamp being out in either should result in both failing.

There are a few locations where banners aren't provided but off indicators are with poor signal sighting - Norwich is one. Platform 3 has a notoriously unreliable off indicator and the signal is very difficult indeed for both drivers and guards to pick out with a short train. Failure usually results in a phone call to the box or a long walk to check it (it's over 250 metres away!).

You'd think so, but I'm not totally sure on that. I've known both banner repeaters and Theatre Box indicators both fail with the related signal showing 'off'. Any S&T able to clarify whether a signal will failsafe if the 'off' stops working?

 

[Tomnick]

An ‘off’ indicator won’t affect the operation of a signal. Even a banner repeated failing should only affect the signal in rear. Presumably LowLevel refers to the “up” or “dn” indication failing on an ‘off’ indicator - in which case I’m not sure but I suspect not.

My understanding, generally, has always been that ‘off’ indicators will be provided where they’re in a position where they’re needed for dispatch purposes only (even if they can be seen by a driver, and potentially useful albeit not absolutely required) and a banner repeater provided where the driver might need to rely on it too. An ‘off’ indicator, for example, might be provided where the obstacle to clear sighting is the train itself (or it’s too close to the buffer stops to be any use to a driver), whereas a banner repeater might be needed where other trains or structures get in the way.

 

[Foggycorner]

You'd think so, but I'm not totally sure on that. I've known both banner repeaters and Theatre Box indicators both fail with the related signal showing 'off'. Any S&T able to clarify whether a signal will failsafe if the 'off' stops working?

Without looking at the circuit diagrams for a specific signal I am unable to answer for Off indicators as they are for indication of the signal ahead, however when it comes to Banner repeater signals which give an indication of the signal ahead a failure of the banner signal will restrict the signal in rear and not the signal that it repeats.Theater signals are a different ball game as it indicates the route set from a signal and it takes different combinations of lamps to make a letter or number and so will still work with some lamps out it all depends on the route being displayed again without looking at the circuit diagrams for a particular signal it unsafe to give an answer that covers all signals

 

[edwin_m]

From my rather old experience of SSI data I'm pretty sure OFF indicators aren't proved in any way, so the signal can clear even if the OFF has failed. However this doesn't explain why drivers can't take notice of them, as if they are driven by the same vital circuits it's not credible for the OFF to be lit if the signal is at danger.