Open Return Ticket Refused? Ordered to pay again.

[_toommm_]

To be honest, what riled me most was him recording me on his phone. That really annoyed me and felt it was so unnecessary

Quite weird, especially if you stayed level like you said. Unfortunately, some guards do set out on a power trip whenever a passenger is in the wrong, even the slightest bit of doubt...

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, what riled me most was him recording me on his phone. That really annoyed me and felt it was so unnecessary

That was certainly unprofessional and quite possibly breaking the rules, so you might want to put a complaint in about it if it bothered you.

 

[GhibliFan]

Quite weird, especially if you stayed level like you said. Unfortunately, some guards do set out on a power trip whenever a passenger is in the wrong, even the slightest bit of doubt...

I can categorically confirm that I was consistently polite, remained seated and never raised my voice, nor did I swear at any stage. I did say towards the end that I'll be in contact with them on Twitter about this, however.

 

[_toommm_]

I did say towards the end that I'll be in contact with them on Twitter about this, however.

Nothing wrong with that

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would admit that most open returns do allow BOJ, especially on the return journey. While technically the guard did their job by selling a new ticket, the way he went about it was not right - the self-gratification was entirely unnecessary, going on borderline arrogant and abusive, so I would definitely follow that up with TfW. If you bought it from a TVM and it didn't advise you to lookup the restrictions with the appropriate restriction code (in this case, http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A), then I would also follow that up with TfW, and would politely ask to be recompensed for the fare paid as you weren't privy to the lack of BOJ restriction.

Out of course, I would personally follow it up with TheTrainLine, as if you previously saw the ticket on their app and made the decision to buy said ticket based on the information provided to you, then it could be argued that be a breach of contract/false advertising.

The guard did not really do their job, as they had no way of knowing whether or not the OP was informed of the BoJ restriction. Unless they had an admission from the OP that the OP had been informed of it, they should have given the benefit of the doubt and accepted the ticket.

 

[_toommm_]

The guard did not really do their job, as they had no way of knowing whether or not the OP was informed of the BoJ restriction. Unless they had an admission from the OP that the OP had been informed of it, they should have given the benefit of the doubt and accepted the ticket.

Note the word 'technically' - I may not fully agree with what the guard did and how they did it, but the textbook way is to right it with a new ticket.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The wording on break of journey is

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

16. Break of journey

1. 16.1. Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.
   
   INFORMATION: Please note that advance Tickets do not permit a break of journey. The special conditions for advance Tickets can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx.
   Other national Ticket types normally allow break of journey with the exception of the outward portion of some longer distance off-peak returns. Where this is the case it is made clear in the restrictions applying to those tickets.
   
   
2. 16.2. Where break of journey is allowed, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed.

There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The wording on break of journey is

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf


There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

If someone is specifically told that their ticket is valid for break of journey on the return portion, that is a term of the contract (especially so if it influences their purchasing decision). To later renege on such a term is a breach of contract. It does not matter what the restriction codes say if someone is specifically told that BoJ is OK on the return portion.

In any case, I maintain that it is entirely unclear whether the BoJ restrictions are intended to apply to the return portion at all: this has come about due a formatting change and not a change in writing. There are very few flexible tickets that have break of journey restrictions on both legs, in any case. Any unclear or ambiguous terms must be interpreted in favour of the consumer, remember.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The guard did not really do their job, as they had no way of knowing whether or not the OP was informed of the BoJ restriction. Unless they had an admission from the OP that the OP had been informed of it, they should have given the benefit of the doubt and accepted the ticket.

As I already pointed out there is no requirement to verbally inform passengers of restriction codes only that the information is made available. Therefore your opinion of what the conductor should have done is based on what you believe the rules should be not what they actually are.

Whether this is right or wrong is another thing entirely!

 

[furlong]

Ask the train company to supply you with a copy of your personal data, mentioning specifically this recording the company made. That will serve to check that correct procedure was followed by the guard.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As I already pointed out there is no requirement to verbally inform passengers of restriction codes only that the information is made available. Therefore your opinion of what the conductor should have done is based on what you believe the rules should be not what they actually are.

Whether this is right or wrong is another thing entirely!

Yes, if the information is made available and no statement is made on its effect then that is one thing. But as both I and the OP have demonstrated, many booking sites, including even TfW's own, will sell you an 8A Off-Peak Return with the term of the contract that the return portion is valid for BoJ. How the guard can possibly assume that the OP was not told such a thing, when it is so widespread, is beyond me.

 

[najaB]

It does not matter what the restriction codes say if someone is specifically told that BoJ is OK on the return portion.

I may have missed it, when did we establish that the OP was told that BoJ was permitted?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I may have missed it, when did we establish that the OP was told that BoJ was permitted?

We do not know that, but then again, when or how did the guard establish that the OP bought their ticket from a source that doesn't advise this?

In either case, as I've said, the restriction is far too ambiguous to stick in the way it's written and formatted at the moment

 

[Silverdale]

The guard did not really do their job, as they had no way of knowing whether or not the OP was informed of the BoJ restriction.

I certainly think the OP should take the matter up with TfW as the information provided on their website clearly contradicts the restrictions applied to the ticket by the guard.

If you take the argument that the guard cannot know what the OP was told to mean that the benefit of doubt should be given, where should that stop? A punter could, e.g. say they had been told they could travel off-route and expect to be given the benefit of the doubt as to whether they actually had been told that.

In my view the guard in this case was not at fault in issuing the extra ticket because the 8A restriction does apply. The error is by the TOC in making incorrect information available. They should rectify it by admitting their error, apologising and recompensing the OP for the extra fare paid. They should also either update the information on their website and ticket machines or, if that is too onerous for them, bin the 8A restriction.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If someone is specifically told that their ticket is valid for break of journey on the return portion, that is a term of the contract (especially so if it influences their purchasing decision). To later renege on such a term is a breach of contract. It does not matter what the restriction codes say if someone is specifically told that BoJ is OK on the return portion.

The OP states he assumed he knew the restrictions he's neither said he looked them up , sought advice on them or was specially told about them. The last time I was at Cardiff Bay the TVM did not have the power of speech so I suspect it did not spot forth on BOJ.

 

[Silverdale]

There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

If you buy one of these tickets online at the TfW site, or at one of their ticket machines, at what stage is the 8A restriction code displayed?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The OP states he assumed he knew the restrictions he's neither said he looked them up , sought advice on them or was specially told about them. The last time I was at Cardiff Bay the TVM did not have the power of speech so I suspect it did not spot forth on BOJ.

Certain ticket machines have an explanation or summary of the restrictions applying to the ticket, or perhaps a QR code.

But as previously stated, the restriction code's BoJ restriction wording and placement is so ambiguous and inconsistent with other restrictions on similarly BoJ-restricted tickets (e.g. 3A, VJ) that I cannot see any way that the restriction on the return portion can be said to apply.

 

[GhibliFan]

If you buy one of these tickets online at the TfW site, or at one of their ticket machines, at what stage is the 8A restriction code displayed?

Exactly. It is never mentioned. I've made this point via Twitter directly to TfW (via DM).

At absolutely no stage are you advised of the restriction, and when pressing on 'i' it's very clearly advised that you CAN break a journey.

I've attached a screenshot of each stage in the ticket buying process.

 

[furlong]

If you try to buy the ticket from TfW's own website it states:

Break of journey is permitted on the return direction of Off-Peak tickets,
and is generally permitted on the outward direction unless prohibited for the journey that you are making.

TfW is advertising that there are no such restrictions in the return direction.

 

[Starmill]

The last time I was at Cardiff Bay the TVM did not have the power of speech so I suspect it did not spot forth on BOJ.

What does speech have to do with anything?

Not that there is any reason why the machine couldn't read out what it says.

 

[Silverdale]

TfW is advertising that there are no such restrictions in the return direction.

That is precisely what you are informed.

But pace Gareth, clearly we punters shouldn't be so gullible as to believe what a TOC's website says about the pertinent restrictions when we go to buy our tickets. We must do due diligence and double-check that despite what we are straight-forwardly told upfront by the TOC, that the ticket doesn't actually have small print attached which is only discernible by searching the internet backwaters on our smartphones as we stand gazing at the TVM.

 

[Haywain]

If you buy one of these tickets online at the TfW site, or at one of their ticket machines, at what stage is the 8A restriction code displayed?

That's completely irrelevant (the online bit) in the circumstances of the OP. What is relevant is the information available at the time of purchase, which must mean the information available on the TVM from which the OP purchased the ticket.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Exactly. It is never mentioned. I've made this point via Twitter directly to TfW (via DM).

At absolutely no stage are you advised of the restriction, and when pressing on 'i' it's very clearly advised that you CAN break a journey.

I've attached a screenshot of each stage in the ticket buying process. View attachment 55299 View attachment 55300 View attachment 55301

You've not posted anything about BOJ in the screen shots and whilst of interest your point of sale was the TVM at the Bay not TfW's website. Bear in mind you've only looked at the website retrospectively so any claim that you checked on the website before travel and it said I was ok is invalid.

 

[Silverdale]

Bear in mind you've only looked at the website retrospectively so any claim that you checked on the website before travel and it said I was ok is invalid.

Pathetic.

If you go to the website today to purchase this ticket, at what point are you informed of the BoJ restriction?

You aren't. Yet you try to defend this indefensible position (on behalf of your employer?)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You've not posted anything about BOJ and whilst of interest your point of sale was the TVM at the Bay not TfW's website. Bear in mind you've only looked at the website retrospectively so any claim that you checked on the website before travel and it said I was ok is invalid.

What's to say that OP didn't check the website before paying for the tickets at the machine?

And as previously mentioned, the restrictions are inconsistent and invalid as they stand.

 

[Starmill]

Bear in mind you've only looked at the website retrospectively so any claim that you checked on the website before travel and it said I was ok is invalid.

You seem to know an awful lot about who the OP is and what they have done? If you already know, why even have the discussion? Before pronouncing anything as 'invalid' why don't you attempt to take the view of the customer? Empathy for the is considered a key requirement of any customer-facing role, so I am surprised you are able to do your job properly by making statements such as the above?

Indeed, it could be interpreted that what you have done here is acutally make something up in order to try to put the customer at a disadvantage. Any retailer that attempted to act in that way with me would need to explain themselves to me.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What does speech have to do with anything?

Not that there is any reason why the machine couldn't read out what it says.

I think we have to differentiate between what we think is fair and right and could be and what actually is. If " I wasn't told at the point of sale" was a valid defence then I'm sure a whole army of horses and carriages would have been driven through this open barn door on a whole host of issues a long time ago.

Just think " I wasn't told you could not sit in first class with a standard class ticket when I bought it"
" I wasn't told when I bought the off peak return from Lanacster to Euston that I couldn't join the train in the peak at Preston "

 

[Gareth Marston]

You seem to know an awful lot about who the OP is and what they have done? If you already know, why even have the discussion? Before pronouncing anything as 'invalid' why don't you attempt to take the view of the customer? Empathy for the is considered a key requirement of any customer-facing role, so I am surprised you are able to do your job properly by making statements such as the above?

Indeed, it could be interpreted that what you have done here is acutally make something up in order to try to put the customer at a disadvantage. Any retailer that attempted to act in that way with me would need to explain themselves to me.

The OP has posted this on a publically available forum tieing up the details on here to a case would not be too difficult an element of caution is needed.

In their first post the OP States that they've always assumed that off peak returns all have the same BOJ condition - whilst I am not unsympathetic to that view it's rather clear that they didn't look it up first. If they had then it would seem logical that this would form part of the conversation with the 3rd conductor?

 

[Starmill]

If they had then it would seem logical that this would form part of the conversation with the 3rd conductor?

Equally, if that the were the reason the third conductor had decided the ticket were invalid, then the point would have formed a part of their argument, wouldn't it? As they are not said to have done so, I would suggest that this is in fact not a crucial point in determining who is right.

Of course, you have made that argument against the customer when it can equally apply in their favour, which is very typical of your recent posts on this forum and very slightly disturbing for someone who claims to be a professional railway salesperson.

 

[Starmill]

If " I wasn't told at the point of sale" was a valid defence then I'm sure a whole army of horses and carriages would have been driven through this open barn door on a whole host of issues a long time ago.

Just think " I wasn't told you could not sit in first class with a standard class ticket when I bought it"
" I wasn't told when I bought the off peak return from Lanacster to Euston that I couldn't join the train in the peak at Preston "

If the customer asked what all of the restrictions were on their tickets, and they were not then subsequntly not told about the break of journey restriction on a Lancaster to London Terminals Off Peak ticket, then that would probably not stand as a term in their contract, you are absoultely right on that point. It is made clear that any break of journey restriction will be advised when the ticket is purchased.