GWR Class 800

[JN114]

Trying to be scientific about it though, I find it surprising that the figure is as low as that, from what's been reported on here I'd have thought 90% at best (plus, it may be the same services regularly chosen to be shortformed so some may be lower and others higher).

Because good news isn’t news. I haven’t reported on here that all 9 IETs I’ve been on this week have been 9 or 10 coaches.

Short Forms happen. They’re never going to completely go away. They’ll continue to reduce as the full fleet is delivered, but the unit availability is markedly better in percentage terms than it was at say, the beginning of the summer. Unpopular as it may be, short forms at these percentages of overall trains run really isn’t uncommon. What’s new is the Audience. And yes the 5/9 car balance probably isn’t quite right, but both lengths are necessary, and there isn’t an intermediary length that works (6+6 is too long for Paddington).

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Short Forms happen.

Oh look, strengthenings just now, mustn't be true because GWR never care about their customers, right? (Not aimed at you by the way!)

HSS: Set Swap London Paddington
"Additional 5B51 Ex LNP [North Pole] to attach to inbound 1A18 and form 1B51 1533 to Swansea 10 cars vice 5."
"1L53 1341 arr to form 1C21 1603 to Bristol TM 10 cars v 9"
"1L54 1440 arr to form 1C19 1503 to Taunton 10 v 9... 800003 & 800005"

 

[43096]

Oh look, strengthenings just now, mustn't be true because GWR never care about their customers, right? (Not aimed at you by the way!)

HSS: Set Swap London Paddington
"Additional 5B51 Ex LNP [North Pole] to attach to inbound 1A18 and form 1B51 1533 to Swansea 10 cars vice 5."
"1L53 1341 arr to form 1C21 1603 to Bristol TM 10 cars v 9"
"1L54 1440 arr to form 1C19 1503 to Taunton 10 v 9... 800003 & 800005"

Is 1A18 booked 5 car, 9 car or 10 car, though?

10 vice 9 is nothing to crow about - it just means they are short of 9-cars again.

On the other side, 1G42 1430 Padd-Cheltenham and 1746 Cheltenham-Padd are 5 vice 10 according to Journeycheck, with a set booked to come from North Pole. It looks to me rather like they split the pair for 1G42 so they could strengthen 1B51.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

10 vice 9 is nothing to crow about - it just means they are short of 9-cars again.
.

Or it's because (I believe) the 9 cars are stuck in North Pole because of "a depot movement of [a] unit into [the] shed" there

 

[43096]

Or it's because (I believe) the 9 cars are stuck in North Pole because of "a depot movement of [a] unit into [the] shed" there

Which to the passenger is utterly irrelevant. It's Hitachi not delivering again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Define reliably?

I can't remember the last time I was on a short-formed LNR service.

That reliably.

 

[404250]

I'm not sure about the seat numbers but I'd say a 9 is preferable to a 10 for passengers. It has 2 full size cars without engine noise in them, as well as the 2 driving cars without engines. A 10 just has the driving cars without engines. It's easier to locate 1st class, or avoid it for standard. If need be you can walk to any other part of the train.

 

[404250]

Oh it can't be short formed or have half of locked out and running empty

 

[Covshire1]

Hi all. Does anyone have a record of when 800312 left Eastleigh? The planned transfer on Monday 26th November looks to have been cancelled, and I can't see another path last week on RTT.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03601/2018/11/26/advanced

There was only one unit in the sidings at Eastleigh yesterday which must be 800301 which arrived on the 22nd November.

 

[irish_rail]

Is 1A18 booked 5 car, 9 car or 10 car, though?

10 vice 9 is nothing to crow about - it just means they are short of 9-cars again.

On the other side, 1G42 1430 Padd-Cheltenham and 1746 Cheltenham-Padd are 5 vice 10 according to Journeycheck, with a set booked to come from North Pole. It looks to me rather like they split the pair for 1G42 so they could strengthen 1B51.

And I expect this to be a regular thing for West Country trains going forward, seeing as we are being lumbered with all the 5 car sets, the minute they are short of sets a 10 car WofE will quickly become a 5 car so as not to cancel someone else's train. Such a pity the 9 car 802s are to be predominantly wasted on services to places like Swansea which just don't justify 9 carriages beyond Cardiff. Quite why we can't have 10s becoming 5s at Cardiff like Plymouth will soon have to endure I do not know. ..

 

[Wychwood93]

And I expect this to be a regular thing for West Country trains going forward, seeing as we are being lumbered with all the 5 car sets, the minute they are short of sets a 10 car WofE will quickly become a 5 car so as not to cancel someone else's train. Such a pity the 9 car 802s are to be predominantly wasted on services to places like Swansea which just don't justify 9 carriages beyond Cardiff. Quite why we can't have 10s becoming 5s at Cardiff like Plymouth will soon have to endure I do not know. ..

As has been mentioned assorted times, once all the 800/802's are with us all will be well - a platitude or an assumption? I hope that in a year or so all will be well, within the bounds of 'normal' failures and assorted stuff like that. New trains require a certain bedding in period, so we are told, I can live with that. What I do not really grasp is why trains (new) can take so long to 'bed in' - Ford release a car, less tech etc. I know, but, barring anything really daft, it will generally work. Millions of cars comp. to tens of trainsets? I appreciate that such matters as electrical interference are involved with the trains and signalling systems - these are known knowns - sort it in advance! Assorted issues of Modern Railways have, via the excellent Roger Ford, given explanations of what is actually going on - far beyond my technical ability.

 

[trebor79]

I'm not sure about the seat numbers but I'd say a 9 is preferable to a 10 for passengers. It has 2 full size cars without engine noise in them, as well as the 2 driving cars without engines. A 10 just has the driving cars without engines.

Makes no odds. I prefer the carriages with engines as you get a better view out if the windows due to the higher floor.
The engine noise is almost imperceptible in any case. It's the quietest DMU I've ever been on. The air conditioning seems to make more noise than the engines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Makes no odds. I prefer the carriages with engines as you get a better view out if the windows due to the higher floor.

I too think the higher floor ones are nicer[1], the window position relative to the seat is better. But all intermediates are high floor, whether engined or not. It's just the end ones to avoid.

[1] I am as noted a fan of "proper" low floor for level boarding - but there's little gained from it unless the floor is at platform height with a moving step.

 

[Envoy]

I too think the higher floor ones are nicer[1], the window position relative to the seat is better. But all intermediates are high floor, whether engined or not. It's just the end ones to avoid.

[1] I am as noted a fan of "proper" low floor for level boarding - but there's little gained from it unless the floor is at platform height with a moving step.

Why could they not have made the end ones also high floor?

I see that a programme about the Japanese Shinkansen is on Quest TV tonight (Mon 3 Dec 2018) at 10pm. (The preceding programme at 9pm is about freight).

 

[Envoy]

And I expect this to be a regular thing for West Country trains going forward, seeing as we are being lumbered with all the 5 car sets, the minute they are short of sets a 10 car WofE will quickly become a 5 car so as not to cancel someone else's train. Such a pity the 9 car 802s are to be predominantly wasted on services to places like Swansea which just don't justify 9 carriages beyond Cardiff. Quite why we can't have 10s becoming 5s at Cardiff like Plymouth will soon have to endure I do not know. ..

The population west of Cardiff is greater than that west of Plymouth. The 800’s are therefore pretty full during the main commuting times.

 

[Termy]

The population west of Cardiff is greater than that west of Plymouth. The 800’s are therefore pretty full during the main commuting times.

All my experiences over the last few years of living in Swansea give me the ability to say: Yes. The HSTs were usually standing room only if you didn't have a booked seat. And heaven forbid you travel on a commuter time service with no booked seat... Hah.

The suggestion from the previous poster that the units are wasted between Swansea and Cardiff is absolute drivel.

 

[Goldfish62]

And I expect this to be a regular thing for West Country trains going forward, seeing as we are being lumbered with all the 5 car sets, the minute they are short of sets a 10 car WofE will quickly become a 5 car so as not to cancel someone else's train. Such a pity the 9 car 802s are to be predominantly wasted on services to places like Swansea which just don't justify 9 carriages beyond Cardiff. Quite why we can't have 10s becoming 5s at Cardiff like Plymouth will soon have to endure I do not know. ..

Is that correct that WOE will have all five cars? I thought the object of the nine car 802s was to be on the services with a restaurant facility. Otherwise, how do you offer it to the whole train without there being two restaurants?

 

[irish_rail]

Is that correct that WOE will have all five cars? I thought the object of the nine car 802s was to be on the services with a restaurant facility. Otherwise, how do you offer it to the whole train without there being two restaurants?

No the restaurant trains should be 10s not 9s. Original plan out the window due to the 9s being prioritused now for non west of England trains

 

[Goldfish62]

No the restaurant trains should be 10s not 9s. Original plan out the window due to the 9s being prioritused now for non west of England trains

So, my question stands. How can a restaurant service be offered to the whole train, or is this in fact the beginning of the the end of the restaurant?

 

[irish_rail]

So, my question stands. How can a restaurant service be offered to the whole train, or is this in fact the beginning of the the end of the restaurant?

Totally agree with you this is why I am hacked off the wrong trains are becoming 10 cars that clearly should be 9s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why could they not have made the end ones also high floor?

I think because the ceiling is lower under the pantographs...

 

[morrisobrien]

Slightly confused!......so what train should the Restaurant car supposed to be on South Wales-Paddington route?

 

[ainsworth74]

We're starting to go a bit off-topic around splitting and joining services so I've split that discussion out into a new thread which can be found here.

 

[Railperf]

Makes no odds. I prefer the carriages with engines as you get a better view out if the windows due to the higher floor.
The engine noise is almost imperceptible in any case. It's the quietest DMU I've ever been on. The air conditioning seems to make more noise than the engines.

Ahem...can i add a slightly more subjective view please? If you are sitting in coaches A and E on a 5-car set or coaches A, E,F and J on 2 x 5-car, then yes, the engines are imperceptible. BUT...if you are sitting in any of the other coaches --AND...ALL engines ARE working...., then they are certainly not imperceptible. I am not being critical here. I love diesel engines. My car is a german brand - 6-cylinder diesel with 260 bhp and 400lb.ft of torque - which to the purist may not sound like as musical as a 3-litre petrol engine- but I LOVE it...i ,one the torque, fuel economy..and aso its sound!

I also love the 3-litre petrol too, and the 4 -litre V8.

So to put that into context - i am not averse to the sound of a combustion engine. BUT, if you are sitting directly above the 21-litre V12 MTU engine - then surprise, surprise...it does make a substantial noise . I would go so far as to say that note levels are on a par with any other DMU you care to mention ..180, 220, 221, 222 etc..possibly even noisier. If anyone cares to measure sound levels with a sound meter for a more technical discussion to compare ..i would much appreciate it. I travelled last weekend from Bath to Swindon - twice - aboard two different Class 802 pairings - and suffice to say - by the time we reached Swindon - i was very happy for the train to switch into electric mode.
It does seem - referring to contractual diesel power output levels - that the train has 'just' enough power to be run flat out from virtually each station start until the train has to commence braking. For example. Bristol to Bath...admittedly the 802 pairing performed at standard Class 800 levels..meaning an engine was out - or the driver was driving at 80%. That meant full power virtually to the point we had to start braking for Bath. The same applied to the start from Bath ..due to the adverse 1 in 100 gradients through Box tunnel, and later Dauntsey, my 802 had to be run again at virtually full power until it was time to brake for its Swindon stop, the train having maxed out at 104mph on 125mph track!!
It had me thinking that maybe the thinking here was to avoid the Notch 5/ Notch 1 / Notch 5 - Notch 1 ..style power application on HST's that caused thermal cycling and accelerated engine wear on HST's.
Imagine calculating an engine setting which allowed you to run the engine at a constant RPM for the bulk of its station to station journey - and you could cut down the risk of thermal loading which caused HST engines huge problems!!
What it did mean was a quite loud engine drone for most of the way between Bristol and Bath ..to the point I was relieved when the engines were no longer required. I was actually startingbto get a headache. Or was it the 2 small bottles of wine i ordered from the trolley on the train?? I might try next weekend without the wine to find out lol!

 

[irish_rail]

I have noticed that too the 802s are far louder more akin to a voyager whereas the 800s are quieter and more like a decent intercity environment.

 

[Mordac]

I have noticed that too the 802s are far louder more akin to a voyager whereas the 800s are quieter and more like a decent intercity environment.

Pistoia workmanship.

 

[Railperf]

I have noticed that too the 802s are far louder more akin to a voyager whereas the 800s are quieter and more like a decent intercity environment.

Were you sitting in a coach with no engine or maybe an engine out? Son't you drive these? Are you talking about noise discernible from the cab?
I cannot imagine sound insulation fitted being any different. And mechanically the engines are supposed to be identical. If car diesel engines are anything to go by I've never noticed a significant difference in engine noise levels where the car has been tuned by up to 1/3 more power. But you can get what is described as torque rumble through the transmission. Maybe the extra power and torque cause extra vibration..but in fairness the 800s also deliver 940hp fleetingly before stepping back to 750. It isn't clear yet what what the 802's step back to. So up to 40mph ish..both engines supposedly delivering an identical 940 horses?

 

[gallafent]

Or was it the 2 small bottles of wine i ordered from the trolley on the train??

Now this is the real breaking news here. There was actually a trolley, and it actually appeared. Extremely rare in my experience on IETs so far. Had one on a turbo the other week though, which was nice!

 

[Bringback309s]

I had my first decent length trip from St Austell to Paddington on an 802 last week, and it was better than expected. For me the seat height, angle and posture was as perfect as any train I have been on, diesel engine noise virtually nil (I was in the second carriage though and there was a shake as it powered down at Reading). Also, the ride quality seems a massive improvement, no lurching around like the HST's. However, the noise from the traction motors reminded me of a 365 and are far noisier than Siemens EMU's, which (apart from roaring air con) seem exceptionally well sound insulated. That seemed not very good for this sort of train. But all being equal on that experience I give around 7 / 10

 

[irish_rail]

Were you sitting in a coach with no engine or maybe an engine out? Son't you drive these? Are you talking about noise discernible from the cab?
I cannot imagine sound insulation fitted being any different. And mechanically the engines are supposed to be identical. If car diesel engines are anything to go by I've never noticed a significant difference in engine noise levels where the car has been tuned by up to 1/3 more power. But you can get what is described as torque rumble through the transmission. Maybe the extra power and torque cause extra vibration..but in fairness the 800s also deliver 940hp fleetingly before stepping back to 750. It isn't clear yet what what the 802's step back to. So up to 40mph ish..both engines supposedly delivering an identical 940 horses?

Yes I drive them but when I have passed on them in the powered coaches it seems to me the engine noise is worse on 802s. Possibly just my imagination or maybe something to do with the higher power setting.
From a driving point of view you hear nothing at all. A step change from the HST cab!!