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GWR Class 800

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broadgage

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Surely the problem of changing at Plymouth could be solved by telling customers requiring the restaurant that it is in the front half of the train?

No not really.
Restaurant in front unit will leave very few non dining first class seats. Therefore those with first class tickets who are not dining will need to use the rear unit. They will have to change at Plymouth if going further west.
Alternatively restaurant in rear unit, restaurant customers will have to use the rear unit to dine, and then have to change to the front unit if going beyond Plymouth.

Which ever option is used, significant numbers will have to walk along the platform at Plymouth. All part of downgrading from proper inter-city trains to short DMUs.
 
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Nippy

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1c96 caped at Paddington last night due to a fault with the front set. And to all those who advocate that it's fine and just the rear five can be used and everything will be hunky dory, the whole train was instead cancelled .
Because by the time they'd found a driver to move the front set it was decided to run it empty. It departed about 5 minutes ahead of the 21:03. Incidentally, a suggestion to swap with an 800 wasn't allowed because 800s can't be fuelled to Laira or something.....
 

morrisobrien

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Broadgage,thank you for your recent explanations and comments regarding Pullman dining/Restaurant car formation.It really does seem to be the end,sadly,of this service in the not too distant future.
 

JN114

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Broadgage,thank you for your recent explanations and comments regarding Pullman dining/Restaurant car formation.It really does seem to be the end,sadly,of this service in the not too distant future.

Thankfully the decision makers in all this don’t share this forum’s pessimism; and Pullman isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
 

samuelmorris

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Diesel engine efficiency hasn't really improved much in the last 15 years - not even for car engines. If anything it was the improvement in strength of transmissions which allowed manufacturers to unshackle the power rather than there being any step change in engine efficiency. The point i am making here is that 95litres of engine power a 115m train to 125mph in 5 minutes, and then are idling for the rest of the way - compared to 63 litres of engine -seemingly running for greater than double that time. The fuel consumption for for the 800 may well be the same or greater. It is very unlikely it will be less. Probably at idle - the voyager and 185 engines burn more as would a 2 litre vs 3 litre car engine at idle.
You're right of course that just using smaller engines doesn't inherently add much to efficiency if they have to work correspondingly harder, but I would be very surprised if they amounted to using more fuel per tonne mile than voyagers. It'll still be less I feel, just not that much less.

superalbs said:
Thankfully a trusty old HST picked up the passengers,
Trusty old even lower MTIN than an 800 HST I hear if the figures are accurate. Based on the performance of the 800s I'm staggered at how bad the HSTs were, I had no idea.
 

broadgage

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Thankfully the decision makers in all this don’t share this forum’s pessimism; and Pullman isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

I expect that the Pullman service will continue for several years, indeed it is a franchise requirement at present.
In the longer term though I fear for its future, for the reasons already given of shorter trains without through gangways.
 

northernbelle

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Correct and the frustration is 14 802 9 car sets , ordered primarily for wofe trains, which could be used on the restaurant trains are instead to be used on services that do not get close to the south west. As you say, beginning of the end for the pull man's sadly....

The 9 car 802s were never ordered 'primarily for Woe trains'. The plan was, from the start, for the majority of Woe services to be 10s (many splitting at Plymouth) with the occasional 9 mixed in.

The 802s were ordered both for WoE and some requirements on the North Cotswolds route.
 

northernbelle

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In other news I noticed this morning that there is a trial of complementary hot food in First Class. Presumably takes advantage of having a full kitchen on every set.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Does anyone have any reliable figures for number of customers using dining facilities between London and Plymouth whilst making through journeys to/from Cornwall?
 

Goldfish62

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Thankfully the decision makers in all this don’t share this forum’s pessimism; and Pullman isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
So making passengers change unit at Plymouth and only being able to lay 12 places isn't going to affect the viability of the dining at all? It's an absolute travesty of a service
 

superalbs

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Trusty old even lower MTIN than an 800 HST I hear if the figures are accurate. Based on the performance of the 800s I'm staggered at how bad the HSTs were, I had no idea.
Well, I've never had an HST failure, twice have I had an 80x fail while I was on board, and I think a couple more times where it never turned up.

So I know which one I would rely on lol!
 

Wychwood93

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So making passengers change unit at Plymouth and only being able to lay 12 places isn't going to affect the viability of the dining at all? It's an absolute travesty of a service
A way out would be to have all ten M-F services which have 'Pullman fine dining' booked for a 9-car. The ten are: 0559 Swansea to Padd, and the 1045 Padd-Swansea. For the West Country its the 1203, 1303, 1803 and 1903 from Padd going to Penzance, Plymouth, Penzance and Plymouth (Penzance on Friday). In the up direction it is the 0505, 1000 and 1600 from Penzance and the 1255 from Plymouth. I am sure there are some of you out there have a reasonable idea of how these services load.
 

JN114

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The Swansea pair has 2 pullman crews in each direction, presumably so they can serve full restaurant service in both portions.

Given a few weeks ago there were GWR vacancies for Chefs at Paddington and Plymouth, might it be inferred that GWR are acutely aware of the potential problems faced and thus intend long term to double crew the WoE pullmans as they currently do the S Wales...
 

Bikeman78

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All that said, give me an IET toilet over a cold, draughty HST toilet where you'd be lucky to have the tap working at all and whose contents vaporise into the trailing air conditioning modules when the flush is pressed.

I'd never though of it like that but then it clearly hasn't done me any harm. I hate taps with sensors, be they on a train or anywhere else. They are so unreliable. The HSTs taps were generally okay until the refurb 10 years ago.
 

Bikeman78

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You're right of course that just using smaller engines doesn't inherently add much to efficiency if they have to work correspondingly harder, but I would be very surprised if they amounted to using more fuel per tonne mile than voyagers. It'll still be less I feel, just not that much less.

Trusty old even lower MTIN than an 800 HST I hear if the figures are accurate. Based on the performance of the 800s I'm staggered at how bad the HSTs were, I had no idea.
Yes I'm surprised how low the HST figure is, given that, in 21 years since I moved to Cardiff, I've never been booted off one as a result of a failure. Don't forget that a technical incident is any delay of three minutes or greater. So two fleets could have similar MTIN figures but one could have lots of 5-10 minute delays whilst the other could have lots of outright failures resulting in cancellations.
 

CMRail

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A to C via B.

A to C being on time, B being a decent service from the company.

Others seem to think the future is A to Z via everywhere.

I don’t care if broadgage wants 72 first class seats with a fully fitted buffet car on his perfectly run GWR network but it is not in the slightest realistic to us moving into 2019.
 

samuelmorris

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Yes I'm surprised how low the HST figure is, given that, in 21 years since I moved to Cardiff, I've never been booted off one as a result of a failure. Don't forget that a technical incident is any delay of three minutes or greater. So two fleets could have similar MTIN figures but one could have lots of 5-10 minute delays whilst the other could have lots of outright failures resulting in cancellations.
I think that's probably it. It must be easier to resolve the issues with HSTs than 800s where presumably a lot of faults are producing software conditions that mandate the train be taken out of service to the depot to 'turn the light off' as it were.
 

broadgage

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A to C via B.
A to C being on time, B being a decent service from the company.
Others seem to think the future is A to Z via everywhere.
I don’t care if broadgage wants 72 first class seats with a fully fitted buffet car on his perfectly run GWR network but it is not in the slightest realistic to us moving into 2019.

Which do you consider to be "not in the slightest realistic", the 72 first class seats, or a buffet ?
The 72 first class seats is not generous for a long distance train, and is a reduction if compared to that previously provided.
I am not convinced that providing a buffet is unrealistic, other operators of IETs such as the East coast route DO still allow buffets. The prohibition of buffets seems to be a GWR thing.
Is buffet provision on other inter-city routes "not in the slightest realistic" or is there some reason why passengers heading north are allowed a buffet, but those heading west are denied this.
 

aar0

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All my experiences over the last few years of living in Swansea give me the ability to say: Yes. The HSTs were usually standing room only if you didn't have a booked seat. And heaven forbid you travel on a commuter time service with no booked seat... Hah.

The suggestion from the previous poster that the units are wasted between Swansea and Cardiff is absolute drivel.
Quite.
With a pair of 5 car DMUs, restaurant service can not be offered to the whole train.
The Swansea Pullman has been 10 car when I've used it before, with onboard and platform announcements telling people where to board or to switch portions for the pullman.
The Swansea pair has 2 pullman crews in each direction, presumably so they can serve full restaurant service in both portions

Does it? Didn't 2 weeks ago as a 9 car.
 

43096

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So do we want two restaurants or not? Because 10 cars aren’t going anywhere!
9 car would make more sense. Just another example that shows what an utterly botched project the whole IEP fiasco has been from start to finish.
 

jimm

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9 car would make more sense. Just another example that shows what an utterly botched project the whole IEP fiasco has been from start to finish.

Never mind that plenty of the nine-car sets have yet to enter service with GWR and that the new timetables and rolling stock diagrams have yet to be implemented.

A limited number of people within GWR may know what the long-term rolling stock plan for Pullman diagrams is but what is happening in this transitional period is not necessarily a guide to anything. Unless occasional appearances by a nine-car IET on the 16.22 from Paddington to Great Malvern are meant to be a portent of the future - a 234m train calling at 45m platforms at Combe and Finstock...

The alternative proposal to ordering Class 802s for West Country services was of course to life-extend some HSTs by fitting power doors and toilet tanks.

The word fiasco might just as well be applied to the project to provide Scotrail, XC and GWR with HSTs that have undergone such modifications - mostly short HSTs at that, not 18 or 20 eight-coach formations. I can't remember the timescale for the Chiltern Mk3s to get their ends rebuilt and plug doors fitted but it can't have been any worse than the supposedly quicker method of installing the pocket doors has turned out to be.

I dread to think where GWR would now be if the HST option had been chosen for the West Country and they were somehow trying to maintain services with a ragtag selection of HSTs while others were still parked in sidings unmodified long after they were meant to have been through the workshop.
 

404250

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If a tiny portion of the cost of IET project was put towards it the HST mods could be done very quickly indeed.
 

Clarence Yard

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I am not convinced that providing a buffet is unrealistic, other operators of IETs such as the East coast route DO still allow buffets. The prohibition of buffets seems to be a GWR thing.
Is buffet provision on other inter-city routes "not in the slightest realistic" or is there some reason why passengers heading north are allowed a buffet, but those heading west are denied this.

It's a DfT thing, as has been discussed many times before. They closed down the interior design of the GWR units and then allowed about 12 items that the bidders for East Coast could change, one of which was the buffet, which raised eyebrows with the FG team who were bidding for East Coast, as well as being involved with the GWR IEP programme. The DfT then made sure that the cl.802 fleet would be "identical" to the cl.800 fleet - bluntly they would not have been authorized if FG/GWR had deviated - it caused a real panic at the DfT at even the thought that they might be able to.

The decision to go 5 car west of Plymouth (apart from high summer and weekends) was also influenced by the introduction of the Cornish half hourly. To sell that to the DfT as well as the W of E HST fleet replacement meant that you couldn't justify, in financial terms, a total 9 car cl.802 fleet.

There is also the big problem of Long Rock depot. The stabling facilities there are really only suitable for a 8 x 26m fleet, because of the access road to the shore immediately behind the sidings. The depot cannot be extended that way or over the private land to the west. So anything from 5 to 8 is best fit for Long Rock with the occasional 9, which has to be specially put by.

As Jimm says, if the decision had gone to a refurbished HST rather than the 802 fleet, GWR would have been in an awful mess now with little or no prospect of the work being completed by 31/12/19 and an increasingly ageing HST fleet. The 802 fleet has also got Hitachi "out of jail" in respect of the mandatory OOC exit date by subbing for still to be delivered 800 sets.
 

trebor79

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Why were/are the DfT so dogmatic over the interior specification? Why would the 802s being different have caused a panic?
 

superalbs

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Why were/are the DfT so dogmatic over the interior specification? Why would the 802s being different have caused a panic?
Apparently they didn't want it to be different because it'd be ''unfair'.

Because using metro seats on InterCity trains at all is totally fair.
 

43096

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Apparently they didn't want it to be different because it'd be ''unfair'.

Because using metro seats on InterCity trains at all is totally fair.
Says everything you need to know about the TOCs. Frankly GWR should have grown a pair and told DfT where to go. I’ll bet the same seats will be used in the Hull and TPE 802s as well - no doubt with bleating about “Hitachi said” and “cost”.
 
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