GWR Class 800

[northernbelle]

Pistoia workmanship.

Yes I drive them but when I have passed on them in the powered coaches it seems to me the engine noise is worse on 802s. Possibly just my imagination or maybe something to do with the higher power setting.
From a driving point of view you hear nothing at all. A step change from the HST cab!!

I think this is more to do with these sets running at full 700kW output - the engines do rev higher and vibrate harder. It is noticeable on a 565kW class 800 when there's an engine out as the remaining engines self-uprate to rull output to compensate.

Either way, I much prefer them to most other underfloor diesels. They seem to run much more smoothly and with less vibration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had my first decent length trip from St Austell to Paddington on an 802 last week, and it was better than expected. For me the seat height, angle and posture was as perfect as any train I have been on, diesel engine noise virtually nil (I was in the second carriage though and there was a shake as it powered down at Reading). Also, the ride quality seems a massive improvement, no lurching around like the HST's. However, the noise from the traction motors reminded me of a 365 and are far noisier than Siemens EMU's, which (apart from roaring air con) seem exceptionally well sound insulated. That seemed not very good for this sort of train. But all being equal on that experience I give around 7 / 10

Interesting you mention the Siemens EMUs. Generally (apart from my personal view on the seats) I found the overall feel very similar to a Siemens EMU, particularly a Class 444. This is not greatly surprising, as a "Javelin" EMU, a related design, feels very much like a Class 350.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think this is more to do with these sets running at full 700kW output - the engines do rev higher and vibrate harder. It is noticeable on a 565kW class 800 when there's an engine out as the remaining engines self-uprate to rull output to compensate.

Either way, I much prefer them to most other underfloor diesels. They seem to run much more smoothly and with less vibration.

There is no such thing as a 565kw class 800. They are all 700kw but are currently governed to a different acceleration rate/traction curve which drops/increases the power available according to speed (and availability of engines). There isn't a single switch point between 565kw and 700kw - it's a more subtle process of power control.

 

[northernbelle]

There is no such thing as a 565kw class 800. They are all 700kw but are currently governed to a different acceleration rate/traction curve which drops/increases the power available according to speed (and availability of engines). There isn't a single switch point between 565kw and 700kw - it's a more subtle process of power control.

I was under the impression that the power output of the GUs on a class 800 was normally rated at 565kW?

 

[samuelmorris]

I was under the impression that the power output of the GUs on a class 800 was normally rated at 565kW?

I believe they were originally restricted to that throughout but that has since been changed in response to the realisation that performance isn't adequate with that restriction.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The rating of a GU in a cl.800 is 700kw. But it is heavily governed to minimize engine wear and the acceleration rate and duration is less than what the cl.802 sets have been set up to achieve. The extent of the cl.800 governing (to not exceed the traction curve in the DfT specification) has been the subject of much debate between DfT/Agility/GWR.

 

[404250]

I must be unlucky as well as the person always on a crowded service in Wales who has been posting on this thread. On an 802 from Paddington. 5 coaches. No reservations. Train to Exeter but announcements and display say Plymouth. I'm usually on Bristol Paddington route and have experienced a regular use of 5 coach trains. Was hoping this would be HST

 

[fgwrich]

Pistoia workmanship.

Careful now! I mentioned that earlier in this thread for the perceived reliability of the 802s but was shot down for questioning the factory and it’s previous “unmentionable” past!

I’ve got to say I wasn’t impressed with the quality of the Fansia seat on the 800/3 I had into Paddington last night. Not this time for the usual seat moans, although it did unecessarily creak, but the the amount of noticeable dents in the back of the one in front of me and a few others already. It had also developed a toilet fault whereby it kept self flushing with no water, and was clearly leaking out of the bottom of it. I have to admit, with some of these issues it’s making Litchurch lane look good!

However, I do have another small criticism - again it’s about the design. It’s the Sink / Door handle space in the small toilets, whereby it seems that it’s easy for the tap water to splash over the edge of the sink and dribble down the front of it (almost ending in a Turbo like puddle on the floor) or gets splashed into the chunky door lock - and ends up getting collected in there. It’s a shame none of this was clearly road tested before being selected for these units. I reckon even moving the handle up higher would make a small improvement.

 

[samuelmorris]

Careful now! I mentioned that earlier in this thread for the perceived reliability of the 802s but was shot down for questioning the factory and it’s previous “unmentionable” past!

I’ve got to say I wasn’t impressed with the quality of the Fansia seat on the 800/3 I had into Paddington last night. Not this time for the usual seat moans, although it did unecessarily creak, but the the amount of noticeable dents in the back of the one in front of me and a few others already. It had also developed a toilet fault whereby it kept self flushing with no water, and was clearly leaking out of the bottom of it. I have to admit, with some of these issues it’s making Litchurch lane look good!.

800/3s are Newton Aycliffe though, are they not?

 

[superalbs]

I have noticed that too the 802s are far louder more akin to a voyager whereas the 800s are quieter and more like a decent intercity environment.

I've noticed that too, thought it was just me.

They're louder than any voyager I have been on, and as a poster above says, that's Pistoia for you!

 

[Railperf]

The rating of a GU in a cl.800 is 700kw. But it is heavily governed to minimize engine wear and the acceleration rate and duration is less than what the cl.802 sets have been set up to achieve. The extent of the cl.800 governing (to not exceed the traction curve in the DfT specification) has been the subject of much debate between DfT/Agility/GWR.

And for that reason - an engine out on an 802 tends to see a bigger overall drop in performance than on an 800. For example, if an 802 loses one engine its performance drops from 120% of the expected equivalent Class 800 performance to around 100% of an 800. Whereas a Class 800 that loses an engine can compensate slightly by upping the other engines outputs to achieve around 90% of what would be expected as standard.
There seems to be a feeling that 802's are currently running with more engines out than 800's. Would that suggest the Agility/Hitach setting is proving to be more reliable, or is it a case that the 802's being much newer - are still bedding in?

 

[northernbelle]

The rating of a GU in a cl.800 is 700kw. But it is heavily governed to minimize engine wear and the acceleration rate and duration is less than what the cl.802 sets have been set up to achieve. The extent of the cl.800 governing (to not exceed the traction curve in the DfT specification) has been the subject of much debate between DfT/Agility/GWR.

Thank you, understood. I suspect it's the debate that's rather confused me!

Careful now! I mentioned that earlier in this thread for the perceived reliability of the 802s but was shot down for questioning the factory and it’s previous “unmentionable” past!

I’ve got to say I wasn’t impressed with the quality of the Fansia seat on the 800/3 I had into Paddington last night. Not this time for the usual seat moans, although it did unecessarily creak, but the the amount of noticeable dents in the back of the one in front of me and a few others already. It had also developed a toilet fault whereby it kept self flushing with no water, and was clearly leaking out of the bottom of it. I have to admit, with some of these issues it’s making Litchurch lane look good!

However, I do have another small criticism - again it’s about the design. It’s the Sink / Door handle space in the small toilets, whereby it seems that it’s easy for the tap water to splash over the edge of the sink and dribble down the front of it (almost ending in a Turbo like puddle on the floor) or gets splashed into the chunky door lock - and ends up getting collected in there. It’s a shame none of this was clearly road tested before being selected for these units. I reckon even moving the handle up higher would make a small improvement.

I'm still waiting to see your evidence to back up that Pistoia-built sets are suffering from build quality issues - all I've seen so far is supposition and conjecture as is quite usual. The seat and toilet issue was on an 800/3 was it not? A product of Newton Aycliffe?

Some of the taps are poorly angled - I know this *was* picked up during "road testing" and efforts made to angle the taps to point further in - it sounds as though you might have found another one to sort.

All that said, give me an IET toilet over a cold, draughty HST toilet where you'd be lucky to have the tap working at all and whose contents vaporise into the trailing air conditioning modules when the flush is pressed.

 

[northernbelle]

I've noticed that too, thought it was just me.

They're louder than any voyager I have been on, and as a poster above says, that's Pistoia for you!

I don't know which Voyager you've been on, but if you can let me know I'd be delighted to swap my usual vibrating thudding CrossCountry example for yours!

 

[superalbs]

I was meant to be on an 802 today, and I would have made a recording showing how loud they are.

But it broke down, so that's that then.

 

[cactustwirly]

800/3s are Newton Aycliffe though, are they not?

The build quality at Newton Aycliffe is nothing to write home about!

 

[fgwrich]

The build quality at Newton Aycliffe is nothing to write home about!

Indeed so. I’m even starting to take back some of my criticism of Bombardier. Although for a change I decided to sit in one of the coaches with the light weight bogies underneath it and did notice that it rode a little better than the standard bogied cars. However, there was some considerable panel rattle in the toilets, along with the seat res system switched off.

Here is one of the seat back dents I was referring to earlier. I did notice that it wasn’t just confined to this seat back either.

 

[Railperf]

I don't know which Voyager you've been on, but if you can let me know I'd be delighted to swap my usual vibrating thudding CrossCountry example for yours!

I travel more on 222's and i'm not sure if they are any noisier on the inside than an 800. What I will say, is that the 800's seem a lot quieter from 'outside' the train. Standing beside a Class 22X while it is standing at a station with all engines idling is almost a deafening experience. But i don't have a sound meter to back up the facts!.
I would be interested to know whether there is much difference in interior sound levels within the coaches where engines are located - I.E is there more engine noise directly above the engine - say - compared to the areas closer to the vestibules.? I haven't looked in detail at the exhaust routing, but does that make a difference in any way?
Certainly driving my own diesel car - a 6 cylinder - there is more engine growl when going uphill at lowish revs when more power/torque are applied at certain engine speeds below 2000rpm. Maybe nearer 1500rpm. So it is feasible the 802 engines 'growl' more with a greater load being required by the alternator / generator to provide a greater rate of acceleration.
What I will say with certainty is that a 222 will reach 100mph in 3 minutes and 125mph in less than 5 - and so the drivers are notching back into much lower power settings to cruise the rest of the way. Whereas - i pointed out earlier that between Swindon and Bristol, the 800's and 802's for that matter are being driven at full power virtually all the way between stations. I might have to spend a day comparing Voyagers, 802's and 800's between Swindon and Bristol in the coming weeks to work out just how much time on average - each train is running at full power! It wouldn't surprise me if the 22x's were using less fuel too!!

 

[AlexNL]

I don't think that kind of dents forms naturally... maybe some punter or punter's kid has been pushing against it hard?

 

[samuelmorris]

I travel more on 222's and i'm not sure if they are any noisier on the inside than an 800. What I will say, is that the 800's seem a lot quieter from 'outside' the train. Standing beside a Class 22X while it is standing at a station with all engines idling is almost a deafening experience. But i don't have a sound meter to back up the facts!.
I would be interested to know whether there is much difference in interior sound levels within the coaches where engines are located - I.E is there more engine noise directly above the engine - say - compared to the areas closer to the vestibules.? I haven't looked in detail at the exhaust routing, but does that make a difference in any way?
Certainly driving my own diesel car - a 6 cylinder - there is more engine growl when going uphill at lowish revs when more power/torque are applied at certain engine speeds below 2000rpm. Maybe nearer 1500rpm. So it is feasible the 802 engines 'growl' more with a greater load being required by the alternator / generator to provide a greater rate of acceleration.
What I will say with certainty is that a 222 will reach 100mph in 3 minutes and 125mph in less than 5 - and so the drivers are notching back into much lower power settings to cruise the rest of the way. Whereas - i pointed out earlier that between Swindon and Bristol, the 800's and 802's for that matter are being driven at full power virtually all the way between stations. I might have to spend a day comparing Voyagers, 802's and 800's between Swindon and Bristol in the coming weeks to work out just how much time on average - each train is running at full power! It wouldn't surprise me if the 22x's were using less fuel too!!

Voyagers/Meridians, and to an extent 185s, possibly due to the engine used, idle at almost 1000rpm which is very high for an engine that large. With the IETs it's more like 600rpm and with the individual cylinders being smaller, all things being equal that will make them a lot quieter at idle.
Certainly I'd concur that if you're standing next to, for example, a Sprinter or HST, you won't be able to hear either if there's a Voyager or 185 behind.

I'd be surprised if the fuel consumption of the IETs was higher than that on Voyagers for an equivalent size train, the power units are 15 years newer in design, clearly have more complex load control given the power rating debacle, and at the most basic level, a 130m 800 has 63 litres of engine, versus 95 for a 115m 5-car Voyager or Meridian.

 

[Railperf]

Voyagers/Meridians, and to an extent 185s, possibly due to the engine used, idle at almost 1000rpm which is very high for an engine that large. With the IETs it's more like 600rpm and with the individual cylinders being smaller, all things being equal that will make them a lot quieter at idle.
Certainly I'd concur that if you're standing next to, for example, a Sprinter or HST, you won't be able to hear either if there's a Voyager or 185 behind.

I'd be surprised if the fuel consumption of the IETs was higher than that on Voyagers for an equivalent size train, the power units are 15 years newer in design, clearly have more complex load control given the power rating debacle, and at the most basic level, a 130m 800 has 63 litres of engine, versus 95 for a 115m 5-car Voyager or Meridian.

Diesel engine efficiency hasn't really improved much in the last 15 years - not even for car engines. If anything it was the improvement in strength of transmissions which allowed manufacturers to unshackle the power rather than there being any step change in engine efficiency. The point i am making here is that 95litres of engine power a 115m train to 125mph in 5 minutes, and then are idling for the rest of the way - compared to 63 litres of engine -seemingly running for greater than double that time. The fuel consumption for for the 800 may well be the same or greater. It is very unlikely it will be less. Probably at idle - the voyager and 185 engines burn more as would a 2 litre vs 3 litre car engine at idle.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've noticed that too, thought it was just me.

They're louder than any voyager I have been on, and as a poster above says, that's Pistoia for you!

Im on an 802 now, yet again using diesel under the electrified infrastructure, and there's some very interesting discussion of engine performance here! I would agree the 802s are signficantly louder than the 800s, voyageresque levels I'm unsure but I will agree with posters above that the RPM in the cruise is much more sustained and noticeable than a Voyager once it's up to speed.

 

[irish_rail]

It seems an 802 naming ceremony for the 12.03 to penzance at Paddington today was cancelled last minute as the 802 is a failure. HST forward instead...........
Great things these 802s lol

 

[43096]

It seems an 802 naming ceremony for the 12.03 to penzance at Paddington today was cancelled last minute as the 802 is a failure. HST forward instead...........
Great things these 802s lol

Looks like 5C80 didn’t make it off North Pole, so 1C80 is 43023/094 instead.

5Hitachi - the gift that keeps on giving.

Inspire the next.... PR disaster!

 

[broadgage]

So, my question stands. How can a restaurant service be offered to the whole train, or is this in fact the beginning of the the end of the restaurant?

With a pair of 5 car DMUs, restaurant service can not be offered to the whole train.
Those in the wrong unit will be out of luck.
If a reasonable number of tables are to be laid for dining, then with only 36 first class seats per unit, I foresee insufficient seats for non dining first class customers.
The fact that spare non dining first class seats might be available in the other unit is no help due to the absence of through gangways.
If the train is to divide at Plymouth as seems probable, then many customers travelling beyond Plymouth will have to alight and walk along the platform, hoping to find a seat in the through unit.

I have previously raised these concerns, either here or on another forum, and advocates of the IETs felt that I was being unduly negative and that "of course a 9 car train would be used for restaurant services" Yet it now seems that even the services with a restaurant will be downgraded to 5 car DMUs.
GWR cant withdraw the Pullmans just yet because some are a franchise commitment, but I fear that patronage will fall as a result of the service being only available to half the train, and the need to change at Plymouth.

 

[irish_rail]

Correct and the frustration is 14 802 9 car sets , ordered primarily for wofe trains, which could be used on the restaurant trains are instead to be used on services that do not get close to the south west. As you say, beginning of the end for the pull man's sadly....

 

[irish_rail]

1c96 caped at Paddington last night due to a fault with the front set. And to all those who advocate that it's fine and just the rear five can be used and everything will be hunky dory, the whole train was instead cancelled .

 

[Envoy]

With a pair of 5 car DMUs, restaurant service can not be offered to the whole train.
Those in the wrong unit will be out of luck.
If a reasonable number of tables are to be laid for dining, then with only 36 first class seats per unit, I foresee insufficient seats for non dining first class customers.
The fact that spare non dining first class seats might be available in the other unit is no help due to the absence of through gangways.
If the train is to divide at Plymouth as seems probable, then many customers travelling beyond Plymouth will have to alight and walk along the platform, hoping to find a seat in the through unit.

I have previously raised these concerns, either here or on another forum, and advocates of the IETs felt that I was being unduly negative and that "of course a 9 car train would be used for restaurant services" Yet it now seems that even the services with a restaurant will be downgraded to 5 car DMUs.
GWR cant withdraw the Pullmans just yet because some are a franchise commitment, but I fear that patronage will fall as a result of the service being only available to half the train, and the need to change at Plymouth.

Surely the problem of changing at Plymouth could be solved by telling customers requiring the restaurant that it is in the front half of the train?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Anyone got a rough estimate of when the last full-length HST will run with GWR?

 

[superalbs]

1c96 caped at Paddington last night due to a fault with the front set. And to all those who advocate that it's fine and just the rear five can be used and everything will be hunky dory, the whole train was instead cancelled .

That was the one I tried to use. Loads of customers annoyed at the "brand-new trains", and even the staff at Paddington seem to have little hope for them now, with one agreeing that they're constantly failing.

Thankfully a trusty old HST picked up the passengers, with no reservations due to the double loading, and I claimed my free refreshments (a little known clause in the GWR passenger charter). Taxis provided for missed connections.

What's the refund policy on these units?

 

[JN114]

Anyone got a rough estimate of when the last full-length HST will run with GWR?

Spring next year (2019) has been mooted.