TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[EE Andy b1]

Traction training on Class 68s between Crewe & Liverpool for TPE drivers and being passed out but it's handling of loco and stock which is also needed as there not passed to handle such trains, which is where the Mk3s would have helped.

 

[AndrewE]

The drivers must be getting restless but obviously route training etc of some sort is already taking place, minus the Mk5 carriages!

Traction training on Class 68s between Crewe & Liverpool for TPE drivers and being passed out but it's handling of loco and stock which is also needed as there not passed to handle such trains, which is where the Mk3s would have helped.

I bet the travelling public would have been quite grateful too!

The longer this goes on the more strongly I feel that TPE management (and the shareholders) need to be caned for not introducing the Mk3s when they should have, and then not grabbing more of them to go with their locos until the new stock arrives.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Traction training on Class 68s between Crewe & Liverpool for TPE drivers and being passed out but it's handling of loco and stock which is also needed as there not passed to handle such trains, which is where the Mk3s would have helped.

Well, there's nothing stopping TPE using the 2 Mk3 sets for LHCS crew training with class 68s.
They just won't have those pesky passengers getting in the way.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Well, there's nothing stopping TPE using the 2 Mk3 sets

Just TPE management!

 

[LittleAH]

All the two sets of Mk3 carriages would do is increase the turnaround time in Scarbados from 13 mins to 73. It wouldn't improve capacity on their service one jot, especially as there's at least one 350 out of action and 185s have had to be used up to Scotland.

 

[EE Andy b1]

All the two sets of Mk3 carriages would do is increase the turnaround time in Scarbados from 13 mins to 73. It wouldn't improve capacity on their service one jot, especially as there's at least one 350 out of action and 185s have had to be used up to Scotland.

Rubbish!
They would be working top and tail Class 68 so not much difference in turn around time.
Would release 2 Class 185s for use elsewhere or doubling up and drivers would be getting the training/handling they need with loco hauled coaching stock until Mk5a sets were ready.
So just all dribs and drabs training at the moment and the bad reputation that TPE has.

 

[Jonny]

All the two sets of Mk3 carriages would do is increase the turnaround time in Scarbados from 13 mins to 73. It wouldn't improve capacity on their service one jot, especially as there's at least one 350 out of action and 185s have had to be used up to Scotland.

I presume you mean Scarborough; in which case the extra turnaround time could prove useful if it is late by, say 15-25 minutes, inbound. TPE is plagued by too short turnarounds.

 

[LittleAH]

Rubbish!
They would be working top and tail Class 68 so not much difference in turn around time.
Would release 2 Class 185s for use elsewhere or doubling up and drivers would be getting the training/handling they need with loco hauled coaching stock until Mk5a sets were ready.
So just all dribs and drabs training at the moment and the bad reputation that TPE has.

It's not rubbish at all, how you can even declare that is simply a nonsense without looking at the facts.

When the first two new sets of Mk5's arrive, they will go in on the Scarborough service, as the Mk3's would've done. This enables TPE to have a longer turnaround at the station (73 rather than 13) and ensures services are no longer turned back at Malton, unless there is a major issue like on Friday. There's now going to be longer turnarounds at the Airport too, also enabling services not be be terminated at Victoria or Pic - although PPM will still struggle given the Oxford Road corridor.

Plus even if the Mk3's were in use, all it would mean is that TPE wouldn't be loaning a 170 from Northern. Oh and there's at least one 350 out of action following an animal strike on the WCML, which is why there's been 185's running on the route, including Friday.

So, no. Mk3's would not be a simple capacity solution. And the Mk5's will be out testing before Xmas - to get back on topic.

 

[LittleAH]

I presume you mean Scarborough; in which case the extra turnaround time could prove useful if it is late by, say 15-25 minutes, inbound. TPE is plagued by too short turnarounds.

Yep! The timetable is shocking, whoever designed it and Ok'ed it never lived in the real world.

They've made improvements in this timetable change (Hud splitting of the stopper and the Airport), but still simply don't have the amount of rolling stock for everything that needs doing and two extra mk3's won't make barely any difference, bar to Scarborough passengers.

 

[EE Andy b1]

When the first two new sets of Mk5's arrive, they will go in on the Scarborough service, as the Mk3's would've done. This enables TPE to have a longer turnaround at the station (73 rather than 13) and ensures services are no longer turned back at Malton, unless there is a major issue like on Friday. There's now going to be longer turnarounds at the Airport too, also enabling services not be be terminated at Victoria or Pic - although PPM will still struggle given the Oxford Road corridor.

Plus even if the Mk3's were in use, all it would mean is that TPE wouldn't be loaning a 170 from Northern. Oh and there's at least one 350 out of action following an animal strike on the WCML, which is why there's been 185's running on the route, including Friday.

So, no. Mk3's would not be a simple capacity solution. And the Mk5's will be out testing before Xmas - to get back on topic.

This all should have happened months ago on existing diagramming before the May timetable, so the lost 350 didn't even come into then or the 170 loan. Accidents and mishaps even failures can happen at any time. No TOC has spare capacity anymore.

It wasn't just about capacity though of which the two Mk3 sets would have helped on Liverpool - Scarborough, it was also about the training of staff and the handling of trains with Class 68s which TPE drivers are not getting and with the continued delay of the Mk5a sets service entry had been put back again until next year.

Yes these services do need greater turnround time and will get that in the future with re-diagramming and another timetable change but not until staff are trained which is where the usefulness of the Mk3s would have come in.

 

[sjpowermac]

This all should have happened months ago on existing diagramming before the May timetable, so the lost 350 didn't even come into then or the 170 loan. Accidents and mishaps even failures can happen at any time. No TOC has spare capacity anymore.

It wasn't just about capacity though of which the two Mk3 sets would have helped on Liverpool - Scarborough, it was also about the training of staff and the handling of trains with Class 68s which TPE drivers are not getting and with the continued delay of the Mk5a sets service entry had been put back again until next year.

Yes these services do need greater turnround time and will get that in the future with re-diagramming and another timetable change but not until staff are trained which is where the usefulness of the Mk3s would have come in.

I hear what you are saying, but I suspect TPE never had any serious intention of using the Mk3 stock. I’m not sure what the reliability of Mk3 sets is, but I suspect probably not as high as the current Class 185s, and the route is very intensively used. I’m not sure quite what would have been the recovery plan the first time a Mk3 set sat down at say Dewsbury.

Regarding ‘handling loco hauled stock’, well maybe, but as I understand it the drivers would still end up having to retrain on Mk5a sets anyhow, so I’m not sure what the advantages there would be.

I’m as frustrated as the next person about the delays, TPE trains in the rush hour resemble the Central Line tube. The Mk3 stock might well have been a whole load of trouble, at a time when training staff on the new trains is going to be the priority.

 

[dilbertphil]

hear what you are saying, but I suspect TPE never had any serious intention of using the Mk3 stock

TPE spent the best part of £3 million on the Mk3's they had every intention of using them.

 

[bengley]

Turnaround time at Scarborough is now 73 minutes on 185s for most of the day.

 

[Darandio]

TPE spent the best part of £3 million on the Mk3's they had every intention of using them.

Well quite, but you'll likely be shot down for trying to take that stance in this thread. I was.

 

[Ben Bow]

Turnaround time at Scarborough is now 73 minutes on 185s for most of the day.

No it isn't. 73 minute turn rounds will only happen once Nova 3 is in service - there isn't enough 185's to support extended layovers right now.

 

[bengley]

No it isn't. 73 minute turn rounds will only happen once Nova 3 is in service - there isn't enough 185's to support extended layovers right now.

Same unit in and out. This is the same throughout most of the day. Unless our diagrams are wrong of course.

 

[bengley]

I will admit, the Scarborough work is all amended by the looks of it so perhaps that's the amendment. Either way, the LTP diagrams seem to imply enough 185s to run that service.

 

[sjpowermac]

TPE spent the best part of £3 million on the Mk3's they had every intention of using them.

Happy to stand corrected, and apologies, I hadn’t realised they had spent £3million on the stock. I wonder how much it would have cost to make the Mk3s accessible to disabled passengers?

 

[MDB1images]

Same unit in and out. This is the same throughout most of the day. Unless our diagrams are wrong of course.

Would make sense as when the MK5a's come on tap they can be slotted into existing diagrams without major changes.

 

[sjpowermac]

Well quite, but you'll likely be shot down for trying to take that stance in this thread. I was.

Happy to apologise and stand corrected.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I will admit, the Scarborough work is all amended by the looks of it so perhaps that's the amendment. Either way, the LTP diagrams seem to imply enough 185s to run that service.

Have the changes to Leeds-Manchester stoppers and speeding up of Hulls freed up a 185 or two? I assume 2x 170s hired in for the Huddersfield service.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Happy to stand corrected, and apologies, I hadn’t realised they had spent £3million on the stock. I wonder how much it would have cost to make the Mk3s accessible to disabled passengers?

I didn’t travel on the Picc – Airport jolly late last year but according to people who did the stock is in a right old state. If all £3 million gets you is new/reconditioned bogies on 8 carriages it’s hardly surprising the cost of the railway is so ludicrous.

 

[bengley]

Have the changes to Leeds-Manchester stoppers and speeding up of Hulls freed up a 185 or two? I assume 2x 170s hired in for the Huddersfield service.

Just the one 170 AFAIK

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn’t travel on the Picc – Airport jolly late last year but according to people who did the stock is in a right old state. If all £3 million gets you is new/reconditioned bogies on 8 carriages it’s hardly surprising the cost of the railway is so ludicrous.

£3 million would get you a brand new 2-car DMU, or thereabouts, so that seems implausible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just the one 170 AFAIK

An hourly service needs 2 units, so I take it the other is still a 185?

(Apologies for the off-topic: I'd initially forgotten which thread I was on!)

 

[AndrewE]

Happy to stand corrected, and apologies, I hadn’t realised they had spent £3million on the stock. I wonder how much it would have cost to make the Mk3s accessible to disabled passengers?

There's no need for it. They were [supposedly] a franchise commitment for a couple of congestion-busting sets of stock, at the same time releasing DMUs for doubling up other overcrowded services. Purely until the new quick-to-arrive Mark 5s actually turned up, you understand!
In theory they would have been replaced by new compliant Mk 5s... and if those were late I'm sure that the older stuff could have soldiered on with a derogation, as no politician or civil servant is going to be so inflexible as to insist that trains are taken out of service (on overcrowded routes with no replacements available) simply because a deadline has passed.

 

[bengley]

An hourly service needs 2 units, so I take it the other is still a 185?

(Apologies for the off-topic: I'd initially forgotten which thread I was on!)

Last off topic post from me too. Yes, 1x185 and 1x170

 

[TBSchenker]

There's now going to be longer turnarounds at the Airport too, also enabling services not be be terminated at Victoria or Pic - although PPM will still struggle given the Oxford Road corridor.

A temporary fix as they are mixing the Middlesbrough and Newcastle diagrams up, which of course once the new trains come in can’t happen as 68s aren’t going to Newcastle and 802s aren’t going to Middlesbrough.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Back to Mk5a sets...

One out tonight ex Longsight to Stafford on test I presume.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K64484/2018/12/09/advanced

 

[Erniescooper]

Set 9 and 68032 out tonight testing