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Prosecution from Southern trains

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Surreytraveller

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But does it demonstrate intent to pay the correct fare?
I would say that it does, as it is designed such that you cannot pay the correct fare until you've finished your journey. In fact, the OP would have been overcharged as they would have paid the maximum fare upon entry, but the TOC has not allowed them to tap out by not providing the facilities to do so.
 
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Surreytraveller

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Now that's rich - the TOC is at fault for not providing facilities to pay an Oyster fare at a station not covered by Oyster.
But the OP isn't using Oyster, they're using contactless. The TOC invited them to begin their journey by using contactless, but is not allowing them to finish their journey by contactless. Look at it from the customer's point of view - it would be like going into a restaurant and being told you can pay by contactless. So you order a baked potato. You get the bill and come to pay at the end using contactless, but are told you can only use contactless if you'd had a hamburger. Then being summonsed to court for it, despite having paid a deposit at the beginning larger than what your bill came to at the end. That's how this comes across to the uninitiated.
 

Surreytraveller

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I don't disagree that the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued, but there should be exceptions for instances like this where the system will obviously catch people out
 
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gray1404

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From the opening post the OP was not issued a Penalty Fare. They were offered one, although the OP said it was a fine (I hope the staff were not using this term), but it was then withdrawn when the OP did not wish to give their home address but rather their work address. I do wonder if the RPIs should have accepted the address offered as the OP is still contactable there (no different to some people giving a parents/family members address where they can receive mail ). They were therefore not issued with a Penalty Fare but rather reported for an offence. They are now waiting receive a letter from the train company.
 

najaB

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You missed my point. Using contactless to tap in starts an Oyster journey. The OP was making journey that's not covered by Oyster.
I do wonder if the RPIs should have accepted the address offered as the OP is still contactable there (no different to some people giving a parents/family members address where they can receive mail ).
But that's not the OP's address. The law doesn't require the passenger to give a name and address but his name and address. Would you say that a PO box address would be acceptable?
 
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Haywain

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They were offered one, although the OP said it was a fine (I hope the staff were not using this term), but it was then withdrawn when the OP did not wish to give their home address but rather their work address.
Reading a bit more into the situation than the OP has written. My interpretation was that the OP declined to accept a PF, which is a rather different situation.
 

ConcernedTok

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Reading a bit more into the situation than the OP has written. My interpretation was that the OP declined to accept a PF, which is a rather different situation.

I was indeed told that it was a £20 fine when I was stopped and not a penalty fare.

When being asked for details later to fill in this form, I gave my name and dob and indicated that I was giving my works address, and at this point highlighted that this was to protect my personal data. I didn't know the rules or that an address is a legal requirement. I was trying to give a contactable address which they refused. I was clearly not trying to hide that since I told them this up front.

But I understand how they can also tell the story from their perspective.
 

Surreytraveller

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You missed my point. Using contactless to tap in starts an Oyster journey. The OP was making journey that's not covered by Oyster.
I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. The customer was paying by contactless. You cannot seriously expect them to know they are starting an Oyster journey when they're not using an Oystercard? I know the journey is not covered by Oyster, but the OP did not know the journey is not covered by contactless, and they cannot be expected to know it is not covered by contactless. The whole situation has turned into a mess, and trips up those without an in-depth knowledge of how the railway works.
 
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30907

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I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. The customer was paying by contactless. You cannot seriously expect them to know they are starting an Oyster journey when they're not using an Oystercard?
Tapping in at an Oyster reader being a clue? I've not seen a Contactless reader and I don't think the OP (who I sympathise with) is trying to claim there is a difference.
 

gray1404

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It is not acceptable that the customer was being told that they were being fined. Anyone is more likely to refuse that and want to dispute it. However if the customer had been told that they were being given a penalty fare of £20, which is a higher fare for an honest mistake where it acceptable the customer didn't intend any wrong, that they didn't have to pay the full amount but had 21 days to do so and there was also an appeals process then it could have allowed the customer to make an informed decision. The customer may have then been more willing to give their home address and it could have been explained to the customer they reasons why a home address is required rather then a work address. However, starting off a conversation by telling a customer they have made a mistake is going to shock a customer anyway followed by the fact they are being "fined" is only going to create conflict. Professionalism and the ability to communicate information clearly can go a long way.
 

Surreytraveller

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Tapping in at an Oyster reader being a clue? I've not seen a Contactless reader and I don't think the OP (who I sympathise with) is trying to claim there is a difference.
But if you tap your NatWest card on a Barclays terminal in a shop, you're still using your NatWest account, even thought he money is travelling via Barclays. I really do not think that passengers should be expected to be technical experts in payment systems just to try and pay a walk-up fare to travel on a train.
If the OP's account is accurate, the staff at Epsom called it a 'fine', rather than a Penalty Fare, failed to explain to the OP that it is a legal requirement to give their address. So the staff at Epsom haven't excelled themselves in competence, either!
 

ConcernedTok

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Tapping in at an Oyster reader being a clue? I've not seen a Contactless reader and I don't think the OP (who I sympathise with) is trying to claim there is a difference.

Just to add in, as someone not from London, prior to this experience, I didn't see them as oyster card readers but as contact less readers. I suppose I presumed that the system was clever enough to distinguish between them and so thought it no different from paying for shopping using contact less.

What also confused me was that I was being asked to pay a fine, which I would have used the same card to do. I didn't really understand the difference at the time.
 

najaB

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I know the journey is not covered by Oyster, but the OP did not know the journey is not covered by contactless, and they cannot be expected to know it is not covered by contactless.
This is one thing that really annoys me about 'modern society' - what ever happened to people informing themselves? These days people expect to be spoon fed and if they get caught out through ignorance of the rules the response isn't "Oh, silly me. I should have checked." it's "Wahh, it's not my fault. Nobody told me." (This comment is directed to @Surreytraveller rather than the OP).
 

Bensonby

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I have one observation regarding the RPI not accepting your work address. The requirement is to provide an address suitable for summons (I.e. one where you can be contacted at). A work address is more than appropriate. Sometimes a home address would not be the best one to be given: students in halls spring to mind.
 

Surreytraveller

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This is one thing that really annoys me about 'modern society' - what ever happened to people informing themselves? These days people expect to be spoon fed and if they get caught out through ignorance of the rules the response isn't "Oh, silly me. I should have checked." it's "Wahh, it's not my fault. Nobody told me."
I don't disagree with you, and it is easy for those that work in, or are familiar with, the industry. However, things are a lot more complicated these days, and how far should someone go to informing themselves? Thirty years ago, the only way to buy a ticket was from a ticket office. Now, you not only have the ticket office, you have self-service machines. You have various internet sites, some run by train companies, others not. You might be able to pay on the train. You have Oystercards and contactless. All these different methods of payment work differently, have their own conditions and foibles. If you make an ad-hoc journey, can someone be expected to start researching how they're going to pay for it when it is obvious that contactless will let you into the system, but not obvious it won't let you out the system at the other end until you get there?
Perhaps you should try using an organisation you are unfamiliar with - something as bureaucratic as the railway, and see how you get on.
 

ConcernedTok

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I have one observation regarding the RPI not accepting your work address. The requirement is to provide an address suitable for summons (I.e. one where you can be contacted at). A work address is more than appropriate. Sometimes a home address would not be the best one to be given: students in halls spring to mind.

I was wondering about this. I get more delivered to my work than I do to my home as I can be away from home for a few days on a regular basis.

I was up front about the fact that I was giving the work address as well. But, as I said in the original post, the response I got from the attendant was "what happens if you get sacked from your work?".
 

Bensonby

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I was wondering about this. I get more delivered to my work than I do to my home as I can be away from home for a few days on a regular basis.

I was up front about the fact that I was giving the work address as well. But, as I said in the original post, the response I got from the attendant was "what happens if you get sacked from your work?".

The other obvious answer to that is: “what if I move house? I move house more often than my job. I can be contacted at the address I haven given you and therefore that address is sufficient for your requirements”.
 

Clip

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The other obvious answer to that is: “what if I move house? I move house more often than my job. I can be contacted at the address I haven given you and therefore that address is sufficient for your requirements”.

But the electoral roll will not show you as resicdent at your work address so they cant confirm that you work or live there - and any sane person would set up a redirect if they moved house... Wouldnt they?
 
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Surreytraveller

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The other obvious answer to that is: “what if I move house? I move house more often than my job. I can be contacted at the address I haven given you and therefore that address is sufficient for your requirements”.
Would it confuse the staff too much if you gave your residence, and also an address for correspondence? Could the TOC be relied upon to contact you at the location you have asked to be contacted at, and only given your home address to meet the legal requirements? If the TOC then did not follow your request to be corresponded with at your work address, and you did not receive any communication as a result, that could potentially nullify any action they took against you (or at least put the situation back to square one)
 

ConcernedTok

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Would it confuse the staff too much if you gave your residence, and also an address for correspondence? Could the TOC be relied upon to contact you at the location you have asked to be contacted at, and only given your home address to meet the legal requirements? If the TOC then did not follow your request to be corresponded with at your work address, and you did not receive any communication as a result, that could potentially nullify any action they took against you (or at least put the situation back to square one)

I didn't want to give me personal address for data protection reasons (which I also explained at the time). Once someone has your name, date of birth and address, they have a decent amount of information about you to start causing mischief. Companies selling on this information also becomes a massive problem.
 

Llanigraham

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I have one observation regarding the RPI not accepting your work address. The requirement is to provide an address suitable for summons (I.e. one where you can be contacted at). A work address is more than appropriate. Sometimes a home address would not be the best one to be given: students in halls spring to mind.

From the times when I issued summonses, we would never issue them to a business address, unless it was the business that was being taken to Court or if we knew that the person was working from home. People's summonses were only ever issued to their "living" address. I know that HMRC are still working to those rules, as are DVSA.
 

Bensonby

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I didn't want to give me personal address for data protection reasons (which I also explained at the time). Once someone has your name, date of birth and address, they have a decent amount of information about you to start causing mischief. Companies selling on this information also becomes a massive problem.

In this instance you don’t have a choice. You must provide your name and address. The issue I highlighted was in respect of whether “your address” can be an address at which you don’t live but at which m you can be contacted. I submit it can.
 

Bensonby

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Would it confuse the staff too much if you gave your residence, and also an address for correspondence? Could the TOC be relied upon to contact you at the location you have asked to be contacted at, and only given your home address to meet the legal requirements? If the TOC then did not follow your request to be corresponded with at your work address, and you did not receive any communication as a result, that could potentially nullify any action they took against you (or at least put the situation back to square one)

No. If they prove that they correctly served a summons (which is not the same as following requests that you have made) then the summons is valid. If you fail to attend court then the court may issue a warrant.
 

kristiang85

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Certainly I can see the scope for being paranoid about giving someone your address on a train; it gives an indication of an address that is empty at a certain time of day, and given how sophisticated criminals operate now you can't be too careful. As long as they have details of some way of contacting you, and you are told clearly that the onus is on you to respond to correspondence, then I see no problem.
 

Wallsendmag

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But if you tap your NatWest card on a Barclays terminal in a shop, you're still using your NatWest account, even thought he money is travelling via Barclays. I really do not think that passengers should be expected to be technical experts in payment systems just to try and pay a walk-up fare to travel on a train.
If the OP's account is accurate, the staff at Epsom called it a 'fine', rather than a Penalty Fare, failed to explain to the OP that it is a legal requirement to give their address. So the staff at Epsom haven't excelled themselves in competence, either!
So if I tap into the gate at Kings Cross and catch the noon train would you expect to be able to tap out upon arrival in Inverness ?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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So if I tap into the gate at Kings Cross and catch the noon train would you expect to be able to tap out upon arrival in Inverness ?
I think the sentiment is clear. I don't think a reasonable person would think that is possible. But Epsom is within the M25 (yes, I know this isn't determinitive, but it at least some sort of clue!), and two other stations near Epsom (Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner), each of which are further from central London, accept Oyster/contactless. So the thought that travel to Epsom is permissible on Oyster/contactless is a quite understandable one. Not to mention the fact that, as of a few month's time, it will become permissible!
 

jumble

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You missed my point. Using contactless to tap in starts an Oyster journey. The OP was making journey that's not covered by Oyster.
But that's not the OP's address. The law doesn't require the passenger to give a name and address but his name and address. Would you say that a PO box address would be acceptable?

This is quite a tricky one actually
If I were of No fixed abode or a traveller but had a work address which address would i give?
likewise if I had been relocated by my company but were in a series of hotels whilst finding a new address why would the work one not be acceptable

The road Traffic act allows you to apply for a driving license and give "a postal address where they can be easily contacted"

If the RPI asked BTP to search you and they found your Driving license with your work address in this case then what next?
Jumble
 
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Bensonby

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As far as the law isn’t concerned you must give an address (suitable for summons). Concerns around data protection etc are irrelevant.

Failure to give a (suitable) address leaves one liable to arrest. If a police officer thinks you are liable to disappear for whatever reason, again, he may arrest you to present you before a court. Indeed, I’m a police officer, and have arrested people for silly-minor offences for this very reason. Usually, they realise that it’s a serious matter when the handcuffs go on and suddenly remember their address. I can then deal with the issue by way of a fixed penalty notice or summons/postal charge.
 

Kite159

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Do the Southern services towards Epsom play automatic announcements before Ewell warning that "this is the last station where oyster/contactless/freedom passes without a suitable extension are valid" like they do on the SWR services?
 
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