Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[JN114]

Where/why is WD having a fifth platform added? Is this not just the freight avoiding line?

On this, was the freight avoiding line added for XR or was this already in place for the Colnbrook line?

West Drayton has had a fifth platform for well over 50 years - probably a lot longer than that - its just being comprehensively rebuilt and realigned for Crossrail. It saw occasional use as late as FGWL days for terminating trains during disruption.

It is currently only used for freight - what I guess you’re terming the “freight avoiding line”; but that’s only a consequence of it being fenced off from the remainder of the station by Crossrail works.

The “why” is to enable trains to turnaround there in peaks (timetabled) or during disruption.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where/why is WD having a fifth platform added? Is this not just the freight avoiding line?

On this, was the freight avoiding line added for XR or was this already in place for the Colnbrook line?

West Drayton was going to be a terminating point for 2 tph before the various changes to normal peak and offpeak frequencies at Reading, Maidenhead and Heathrow. IIRC the newly modified platform was supposed to become the up relief, and the existing platform line was to become available as a bi-directional loop, but there’ll no longer be Crossrail terminators except during service perturbations.

I linked to a pdf track diagram ages ago that showed which lines were new and which were re-purposed.
It’s here if it’s of any help, but may have been superseded since, I think Maidenhead is different to the original plan:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paddington-crossrail-platforms.63446/#post-1049713

 

[reddragon]

The latest update I have is that the build / testing will be completed around Easter 2020 for an opening from the May 2020 timetable change.

The running joke is that Bond Street will be the first station completed, as its the only one that doesn't require out of spec stuff taking out & replacing as it was so far behind & the construction teams are still on site!!

No clarity on the stages of opening yet though. They have a huge mountain range to climb to get this one done!!

 

[Andrew S]

Well since the announcement last summer of the delay, there seems to have been no testing at all. I haven't seen a single train on the open section through Custom House.

I have seen a couple of test trains in and out of Abbey Wood on Sundays. Admittedly only two occasions.

 

[matt_world2004]

A test train ran through the tunnel Monday Morning. There was also one stabled in the tunnel Christmas day and a few boxing day test runs.

What I have heard was

1.)january 24th full timetable testing begins in the core.
2.)Mid February class 345s start replacing Heathrow connect class 360s
3.)Low frequency core preview service target date September 7th 2019. Which was the original revised core opening date. (May only run off peak and weekends due to crowding fears, another option being considered is opening for a few minutes at a time to generate hype)
3.)December 2019 X2 tph start running to Reading from Paddington mainline. They aim to open the core the same day. Although possibly be delayed until April/May
4.)May 2020 join up date.

 

[cle]

Are they using that fifth line which runs through (from memory) Langley and Iver?

 

[samuelmorris]

A test train ran through the tunnel Monday Morning. There was also one stabled in the tunnel Christmas day and a few boxing day test runs.

What I have heard was

1.)january 24th full timetable testing begins in the core.
2.)Mid February class 345s start replacing Heathrow connect class 360s
3.)Low frequency core preview service target date September 7th 2019. Which was the original revised core opening date. (May only run off peak and weekends due to crowding fears, another option being considered is opening for a few minutes at a time to generate hype)
3.)December 2019 X2 tph start running to Reading from Paddington mainline. They aim to open the core the same day. Although possibly be delayed until April/May
4.)May 2020 join up date.

That preview service date seems quite early. I'd have expected that to be only a few months (say 3-4 at most) before the core fully opens. Would there really be more work to do than that between it being safe to carry passengers in the core and being able to operate the core timetable?

 

[plcd1]

A test train ran through the tunnel Monday Morning. There was also one stabled in the tunnel Christmas day and a few boxing day test runs.

What I have heard was

1.)january 24th full timetable testing begins in the core.
2.)Mid February class 345s start replacing Heathrow connect class 360s
3.)Low frequency core preview service target date September 7th 2019. Which was the original revised core opening date. (May only run off peak and weekends due to crowding fears, another option being considered is opening for a few minutes at a time to generate hype)
3.)December 2019 X2 tph start running to Reading from Paddington mainline. They aim to open the core the same day. Although possibly be delayed until April/May
4.)May 2020 join up date.

That looks a bit odd to me but not doubting that you've heard it. So (1) is already 10 days later than previously reported. Really surprised that the signalling issues have been fixed (or are close to being fixed) in the Heathrow tunnel to allow 345s to run to Heathrow. I thought all the HEX 332s had to be replaced by 387s and the old BR-ATP kit ripped out to avoid the 345's interference issues in the HAL owned tunnel?

I'll be astonished if a preview service could start in Sept 2019. I can see the attraction but a lot has to happen before then and too many sites are still not finished unless TfL is so desperate that it'll put passengers through still incomplete stations. I think it's a near certainty that MTR Crossrail will assume some level of passenger services from Paddington (surface) to Reading in Dec 2019. That's the only bit that seems plausible to me. I can also see May 2020 being attractive as the "join up" date but that means a huge big bang with the timetable that I thought the Crossrail Ops Director was desperate to avoid. It's far too risky - only need a couple of signalling or rolling stock failures in the wrong place and the service collapses.

 

[Roger100]

Are they using that fifth line which runs through (from memory) Langley and Iver?

There's no fifth line running through Langley, although there is a short length which runs from what used to be the oil terminal as far as the Hollow Hill Lane bridge at the Langley/Iver border. This was used by trains to the oil terminal but that is long gone. Then further east, after the site of Iver's now demolished Dog Kennel Bridge, the freight loop through Iver and West Drayton stations begins. This ends just east of West Drayton station. This loop has OLE installed.

The Hollow Hill bridge is close to where the Western Approach to Heathrow is planned to connect to the GWML, if it ever gets built.

I have used trains from West Drayton's platform 5 - when I was a child in the late 50's and maybe later. The trains to Uxbridge Vine Street and Staines left from here. The former branch has long gone, but freight trains still use the Staines branch which now terminates at Colnbrook.

I suppose it's just about feasible to run electric trains on the loop through Iver and West Drayton, but I would have thought it would made more sense to electrify the Slough to Windsor branch instead. But what do I know?

 

[700007]

A test train ran through the tunnel Monday Morning. There was also one stabled in the tunnel Christmas day and a few boxing day test runs.

What I have heard was

1.)january 24th full timetable testing begins in the core.
2.)Mid February class 345s start replacing Heathrow connect class 360s
3.)Low frequency core preview service target date September 7th 2019. Which was the original revised core opening date. (May only run off peak and weekends due to crowding fears, another option being considered is opening for a few minutes at a time to generate hype)
3.)December 2019 X2 tph start running to Reading from Paddington mainline. They aim to open the core the same day. Although possibly be delayed until April/May
4.)May 2020 join up date.

I have and haven't heard some of the points listed here. Yes the dynamic testing should assume shortly for a course of a number of weeks.

Point 2 I believe is not happening in February and is currently due to happen later in the year - more detail when it comes.

Point 3 is one that seems to have a lot of speculation but no substance as of yet over because it is not the first time I have heard this. I reckon if the summer blockade of platforms 15-18 take place this year and the trains do get diverted into Liverpool Street Crossrail, then it will increase the chances tenfold of some sort of limited service operating.

Point 4 is an almost definite as it stands. TfL is pressing ahead to operate TfL Rail services from London Paddington to Reading and Maidenhead no later than December 2019 as originally planned. This will allow the project to progress another stage and also not lose out completely on the revenue box.

Join up day being the same day as the core opening is another speculative one. I wouldn't be surprised given the state that TfL's finances are in, they would probably risk going through a big bang ThamesLink / Northern May 2018 debacle if it meant they got revenue. Even if this happens, it should be nowhere near as bad.

Also to the posters earlier in this thread, in regards to station refurbishment work - Ealing Broadway had the new stairs fitted in over Christmas and opened yesterday morning. Forest Gate and Manor Park have new ticket halls open with the step free elements as @iphone76 has stated opening end of Feb / beginning of March.

 

[Taunton]

I can see the attraction but a lot has to happen before then and too many sites are still not finished unless TfL is so desperate that it'll put passengers through still incomplete stations.

Well of course at the various interchange stations passengers have been using them "incomplete" all along. At Custom House, for example, despite a year-long full closure (2017?) when, as I have commented here before, progress seemed to be extremely lethargic, large areas of the DLR station, both at platform level and above, are still boarded off and restricted. I don't think TfL have the luxury any more of keeping things closed until it all looks shiny and smart. The expectation is just to get the thing opened.

 

[plcd1]

There was a further Transport Cttee meeting at City Hall today. There were two distinct parts - first with Sir Terry Morgan, second with Mark Wild, Heidi Alexander, David Hughes (TfL) and the new yet to start Chairman of Crossrail Ltd. A webcast is available on the London.gov.uk site.

To no great surprise Sir Terry's view of what was said at the July 2018 meeting differs from what was stated by the Mayor and Commissioner in Dec last year. No real point in dwelling on any of that. Various statements were made that don't align with what others have said so we're no further forward.

The second session had a few new bits of info from Mark Wild.

- Woolwich Station is apparently "handed over" and "looks great". Farringdon and Custom House are at contractor demobilisation stage.
- Bond Street will finish last, probably in the Summer.
- The aim is to get all the construction at stations done with 3-4 months to then allow system testing within stations.
- Still working on a programme to sequence the functional testing at stations. This sequencing work should take a few more weeks to complete.
- Signalling at Heathrow is not a key priority *at the moment* for Mark Wild. The efforts of Bombardier and Siemens are on getting the core signalling working plus the transition points at Royal Oak / Pudding Mill Lane.
- It may still be the case that if the core opens 1 or 2 stations may not open fully. Clearly that is wholly dependent on the relative progress of both train and station testing. If all the stations get through testing and commissioning and into operational preparedness broadly together then that partial opening wouldn't be needed.
- Mark Wild stressed multiple times that the Crossrail project did not fully understand the extent of the technical challenge in getting from a construction to an operating railway. I sort of struggle with this given the multiple times he and Sir Terry Morgan said they'd got excellent people on the project and at Executive / Board level.
- Apparently around 1,000 people at Bombardier at multiple sites worldwide incl Derby and Bangalore are involved in trying to get the Aventras working with Siemens Trainguard plus the transition points.
- Although no firm statements were made about opening dates there was a clear preference from Mark Wild to preserve the structure of a phased opening in order to give time for reliability growth with each iteration of the timetable.
- Contracts have been let by NR for the station rebuilds at Southall, Hayes and Harlington and West Drayton.
- The contracts for Acton Main Line, Ealing Broadway and West Ealing should be let very soon. Some level of enabling works at these sites was achieved over the Xmas possessions.
- Accessibility works at some of East London stations should finish within a few weeks. No info yet re Ilford and Romford where the scope is larger and more involved.

 

[samuelmorris]

Thanks for the summary. To clarify that third point - is it that constructions is expected to be 3-4 months, or that, once they're constructed, the test period that follows is 3-4 months?

 

[Taunton]

I can't see what the fundamental issue is in getting from "construction" to "operating" either. It's not as if it has not been done before ...

It should surely have been apparent (as it was to many outsiders, but we were poo-pooed) that all the different signalling systems, multiple suppliers, new technologies, systems out of production, and transitions, with on a journey from Heathrow to Stratford there being no less than three (as I understand it) signalling system changeovers, one every few minutes, was something that was not going to work out of the box.

But the key thing now is surely to get the core up and running on its own first, Abbey Wood to Paddington. Forget all the architects getting their design awards for the grand stations (which have proved impossible to build straightforwardly). Forget having to wait for a Grand Opening by Her Majesty, they've squandered their chance for all that. Forget any nice-to-haves at the stations which can be completed afterwards.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for the summary. To clarify that third point - is it that constructions is expected to be 3-4 months, or that, once they're constructed, the test period that follows is 3-4 months?

System testing if everything goes well else could be much longer. The aim is to do the most critical (by impact to rectify) tests first.

 

[plcd1]

Thanks for the summary. To clarify that third point - is it that constructions is expected to be 3-4 months, or that, once they're constructed, the test period that follows is 3-4 months?

Sorry for lack of clarity - it was about getting the construction teams out of all of the stations. Some have reached the point. The time and sequencing for testing at stations is not yet defined but work is underway to do that.

The dynamic testing of the trains and signalling is an undefined area. Mark Wild was clear that they will aim to do difficult things first to "peel back the onion" of the various layers of functionality and testing. He also said that unexpected bugs and issues are quite likely to emerge when this gets going but that no one should panic if it happens. It is entirely normal that bugs and issues emerge when testing happens. Mr Wild wasn't what I would call blasé (that would be grossly unfair) but he was very calm and unruffled when seeking to explain how the dynamic testing would proceed. Clearly he's done it before.

 

[plcd1]

I can't see what the fundamental issue is in getting from "construction" to "operating" either. It's not as if it has not been done before ...

It should surely have been apparent (as it was to many outsiders, but we were poo-pooed) that all the different signalling systems, multiple suppliers, new technologies, systems out of production, and transitions, with on a journey from Heathrow to Stratford there being no less than three (as I understand it) signalling system changeovers, one every few minutes, was something that was not going to work out of the box.

But the key thing now is surely to get the core up and running on its own first, Abbey Wood to Paddington. Forget all the architects getting their design awards for the grand stations (which have proved impossible to build straightforwardly). Forget having to wait for a Grand Opening by Her Majesty, they've squandered their chance for all that. Forget any nice-to-haves at the stations which can be completed afterwards.

I don't want to get into a debate with you about rights or wrongs of past decisions. I am only really reporting what I've heard from webcasts for the benefit of forum readers who don't want to sit through hours of discussion. What we do know is that certain things have changed since those original decisions were taken such as not fitting ETCS on the main line out of Paddington. Mark Wild specifically said today that if that was in place then the transition from Trainguard in the core to ETCS would be much easier than having to run from Trainguard onto TPWS tracks.

I agree with you that there should be plenty of experience of getting from construction to operational. What seems to have been said in recent sessions is that there has been a step change in some of the technology that has been adopted for the stations and other systems. This creates additional challenge in getting new technology in and working. There are obvious comments that can be made about that choice but unless the people who wrote the specifications are on the forum there is no one around to defend those past decisions.

I agree that the priority is to open the core but it's clear that there has to be a retained project team to get things through the later NR service transitions too plus the NR station works. It's clear that parts of the Crossrail project team were scaled down / removed completely too early. Some of those skills and resources are having to be put back.

 

[kev1974]

Evening Standard article, "Putting Crossrail Back On Track"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/putting-crossrail-back-on-track-a4034601.html

What you see — as you scramble down a temporary staircase, past temporary cabling (the main power supply to the station still hasn’t been installed and work is still being powered by diesel generators), across temporary floors (they are still laying the tiles) and under temporary ceilings (the lighting systems in lots of places are only just being fitted) — is evidence of a project which, as Brown puts it, “just ran out of runway” last year.

Looking at it all — the piles of panelling not fixed in place, the escalators still in bits, the drilling, the hammering, the workers everywhere, the complex fire system still not there — you can see that there was never a cat in hell’s chance of this site being ready for passengers on December 9 last year.

Similar content to the London Reconnections article posted earlier but slightly less transport-technical if you know what I mean.

 

[jon0844]

The documentary is still a valuable historical record of how they built a railway line in early 21st century London.

People may get a little bored when it runs to six seasons...

 

[mrmartin]

Evening Standard article, "Putting Crossrail Back On Track"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/putting-crossrail-back-on-track-a4034601.html

Wow. I know that's the worst station but I thought it would be a lot further along than that. Pretty incredible that some of the design work has just been completed for some safety systems and power isn't installed yet. The mention of work still to finish in the tunnels is worrying.

Seems like pretty much everything is (significantly) behind schedule, not just the signals/trains.

 

[theageofthetra]

Has anyone responsible for this incompetence been fired yet?

 

[hwl]

Has anyone responsible for this incompetence been fired yet?

Not really - Most ran for the hills 9-18months ago leaving the now former non Exec Chairman (Terry Morgan of JLE rescue fame) who was on 2.5 days a week to take the flack. The Mayor is denying all early knowledge of the situation, TfL (senior media and comms etc) are now in mega trouble as they edited was coming from Crossrail before passing it to the Mayor (and just made up the monthly progress reports themselves), using Whatapp so there was no audit trail, and the Mayor is denying he was told in a July meeting it wasn't happening in 2018 and said Terry has "misremembered," the text on the powerpoint slides suggests differently so expect the Mayor to be questioned on the meaning of simple words in a short sentence. *Fessing up to jetlag just after coming back from Holiday before the meeting earlier might have been a good plan*

The committee chairman summonsed a truck load of information from TfL and there is cross party support to grill the mayor and deputy mayor (transport) as they haven't given the committee due respect and have been over secretive and combative compared to previous Mayors.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Has anyone responsible for this incompetence been fired yet?

You must be new to the railway industry...

 

[hwl]

You must be new to the railway industry...

Yes the non exec chairman and the new CEO (the problems came out just after he started), everyone else left in advance or has got promotion

 

[theironroad]

Has anyone responsible for this incompetence been fired yet?

Probably waiting for a promotion or gong in the next Honours list more likely.....

 

[bramling]

Not really - Most ran for the hills 9-18months ago leaving the now former non Exec Chairman (Terry Morgan of JLE rescue fame) who was on 2.5 days a week to take the flack. The Mayor is denying all early knowledge of the situation, TfL (senior media and comms etc) are now in mega trouble as they edited was coming from Crossrail before passing it to the Mayor (and just made up the monthly progress reports themselves), using Whatapp so there was no audit trail, and the Mayor is denying he was told in a July meeting it wasn't happening in 2018 and said Terry has "misremembered," the text on the powerpoint slides suggests differently so expect the Mayor to be questioned on the meaning of simple words in a short sentence. *Fessing up to jetlag just after coming back from Holiday before the meeting earlier might have been a good plan*

The committee chairman summonsed a truck load of information from TfL and there is cross party support to grill the mayor and deputy mayor (transport) as they haven't given the committee due respect and have been over secretive and combative compared to previous Mayors.

For me the issue is not so much that it’s late and over budget - these projects have a habit of going that way, and anyone who remembers the Jubilee Line Extension will no doubt sympathise with this. It’s hard to predict the unknown after all.

However there’s a big issue with the fact that these issues didn’t surface until the absolute last minute. Anyone just taking a stroll round the stations at street level could see that December 2018 just wasn’t going to happen. Things don’t just suddenly go from on time to two years late. To me there’s signs of either very poor leadership and project management, or deliberate
deception - which with the mayoral connections wouldn’t surprise me at all sadly.

I really wish the transport system in London wasn’t accountable to the mayor.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
I really wish the transport system in London wasn’t accountable to the mayor.

Totally disagree with that.

 

[JN114]

Totally disagree with that.

I can see the argument both ways.

Accountability to an elected official is generally a good thing; we can indicate how well that official is running the show in our electoral voting preferences. The level of transparency required is also generally much higher.

However, it risks key infrastructure being a political football - with little long-term strategy and investment generally centred around what the official who authorised the investment can cut the ribbon on.

 

[Ianno87]

For me the issue is not so much that it’s late and over budget - these projects have a habit of going that way, and anyone who remembers the Jubilee Line Extension will no doubt sympathise with this. It’s hard to predict the unknown after all.

However there’s a big issue with the fact that these issues didn’t surface until the absolute last minute. Anyone just taking a stroll round the stations at street level could see that December 2018 just wasn’t going to happen. Things don’t just suddenly go from on time to two years late. To me there’s signs of either very poor leadership and project management, or deliberate
deception - which with the mayoral connections wouldn’t surprise me at all sadly.

I really wish the transport system in London wasn’t accountable to the mayor.

What doesn't make sense (to me) is why it would be in any way in the Mayor's own interest to try and 'cover up' any delay? The successful delivery of the project is largely out of his direct control anyway - others responsibility - save for releasing funding and providing challenge/probing into how on time the thing is.

 

[ijmad]

I really wish the transport system in London wasn’t accountable to the mayor.

Totally disagree with that.

The problem is less the Mayor (or rather the Office of the Mayor) per se, but it's the structure of the London government - essentially all the power is channelled through one person, the Assembly only exists to broadly scrutinise what the Mayor does with considerable executive power. If the Assembly could act more like a Parliament and the Mayor was like a First Minister and had to seek support for decisions and policies through an elected body that could debate and amend on the public record, these arguments about transparency would be blown away. More, better structured devolution is the answer, not less.