Northern writing to ACAS requesting independent inquiry

[Gems]

Southern OBS are safety trained but not safety critical. They are trained in assisting with train evacuations, basic PTS such as what signage means and how to walk on the line (not route knowledge however), making emergency GSMR calls, stopping the train in an emergency by giving one on the bell, locking out doors, resetting pass oms and resolving basic interior faults like sliding doors, toilets etc etc. To name a few competencies.

Which is basically what most guards would only ever do in their railway working lifetime anyway.

A few thoughts here based on comments made.

East/west split. You bet there is. We're like step children, live with each other, tolerate each other, but love, Nah.

Route learning. There has to be a element of route learning in order to ensure disabled passengers can exit the stations etc. It is critical that as a guard you need to know that station. However once you know it, you know it. So route learning although it will still need to be there, it would evolve slightly. This is just one area that should be discussed, but you can't discuss a future requirement when nobody talks. I just feel myself a golden opportunity to get across vital role requirements are being passed by.

 

[387star]

Southern OBS are safety trained but not safety critical. They are trained in assisting with train evacuations, basic PTS such as what signage means and how to walk on the line (not route knowledge however), making emergency GSMR calls, stopping the train in an emergency by giving one on the bell, locking out doors, resetting pass oms and resolving basic interior faults like sliding doors, toilets etc etc. To name a few competencies.

I thought in actual fact they weren't PTS trained despite ASLEF saying they would be as part of the deal?

Wonder what their evac training involves... and how do you make a gsmr emergency call without route knowledge?

 

[Starmill]

Whilst the eastern depots have more guards breaking their own strikes the west is solid with one exception.

What's the exception?

 

[pompeyfan]

I

Southern OBS are safety trained but not safety critical. They are trained in assisting with train evacuations, basic PTS such as what signage means and how to walk on the line (not route knowledge however), making emergency GSMR calls, stopping the train in an emergency by giving one on the bell, locking out doors, resetting pass oms and resolving basic interior faults like sliding doors, toilets etc etc. To name a few competencies.

is that a fact? I know that’s what Southern promised but didn’t think they’d delivered on it yet. If they have the above training do they not now need a full guards medical? I was under the impression that anyone and their dog could become an OBS providing they answered with the right answers in an interview. Do they still do an assessment day with the OPC like traditional guards?

 

[DarloRich]

It isn’t, it’s mostly about preserving the bargaining power that goes with the ability to stop the trains, I think you’ll find the majority now accept this, regardless of what side of the argument they’re actually on

That is kind of the underlying point with all unions! But without guards the RMT still have the ability to stop all the trains.

 

[Robertj21a]

That is kind of the underlying point with all unions! But without guards the RMT still have the ability to stop all the trains.

Isn't this part of the problem with trust and honesty etc. Many of us probably believe that this dispute is mostly about the strength of the RMT. They need to keep the guards so as to be able to make any strikes more effective - similarly, they need to keep the role long term so as to keep up their membership numbers.
On the other hand, their public statements claim the dispute is all about safety/PTI etc - it just makes them look silly when people respond with statistics about 12 coach trains operated DOO on some of the busiest services in the UK.
Some genuine honesty from the RMT wouldn't go amiss !!

 

[Eccles1983]

What's the exception?

One person coming in on strike days.

 

[DarloRich]

Isn't this part of the problem with trust and honesty etc. Many of us probably believe that this dispute is mostly about the strength of the RMT. They need to keep the guards so as to be able to make any strikes more effective - similarly, they need to keep the role long term so as to keep up their membership numbers.
On the other hand, their public statements claim the dispute is all about safety/PTI etc - it just makes them look silly when people respond with statistics about 12 coach trains operated DOO on some of the busiest services in the UK.
Some genuine honesty from the RMT wouldn't go amiss !!

I think you are being slightly disingenuous.

You may be correct in your view (and I suspect that is an underlying theme of all strikes) but no one is going to say so.

By the same token no one is going to say the central theme of the Arriva/DfT position is to undermine all unions, reduce workers rights, ensure that the last groups of people able to stand up for themselves and secure good terms are broken and ensure the plebs know thier place.

If you want honesty let's have honesty from all.

 

[Gems]

I think you are being slightly disingenuous.

You may be correct in your view (and I suspect that is an underlying theme of all strikes) but no one is going to say so.

By the same token no one is going to say the central theme of the Arriva/DfT position is to undermine all unions, reduce workers rights, ensure that the last groups of people able to stand up for themselves and secure good terms are broken and ensure the plebs know thier place.

If you want honesty let's have honesty from all.

The plebs vote for these people though, and that is why we are where we are. We live in a broken country, just nobody seems to see it is broken.

The problem I have though is that I have seen some of the inner workings of the RMT, and it is confusing. We could have had two years now of detailed discussions about creating a role that both benefited present staff, new staff, and the people who travel on Northern. Instead a totally unacceptable set of working practices will at some point be imposed by a management with limited understanding of the job itself.
The clock is ticking away, and we are stuck in this cul-de-sac.

 

[Tetchytyke]

it just makes them look silly when people respond with statistics about 12 coach trains operated DOO on some of the busiest services in the UK.

Does it?

Trains don't have problems often but, when they do, they escalate much quicker on DOO trains. Passengers self-evacuating is an increasing problem in the DOO routes on the South East, for instance.

If you want honesty let's have honesty from all.

Quite.

I'd still love to hear the DfT explain their ultimate aim. Paying the same staff the same money doesn't save (much) money. Let's have some honesty.

 

[Gems]

Does it?

I'd still love to hear the DfT explain their ultimate aim. Paying the same staff the same money doesn't save (much) money. Let's have some honesty.

Wilkinson let the cat out of the bag. But there is nothing they can do about ASLEF is there. There is no savings in retained staff, the savings are long term when you start employing on half the salary, with exclusions to the railway pension fund, and lower standards for passengers. Meanwhile the set aim of the DFT is to force fares up as much as they can to eliminate subsidies. The fact that no country in the world has a unsubsidised public transport system is lost on these fools.
The tipping point for fare increases came about three years ago. It has now got to the point where passenger numbers are falling, but still the DFT puts out franchises to privateers who think in terms of passenger growth, it is utter drivel.

That said, let us not forget the other side of this coin. Today is another strike day, and despite my annoyance with having no real voice in the union that supposedly represents me, I'll stay at home. But for some of us we want a voice, and we don't have one. So as undemocratic as the DFT and Tory party might be, the RMT is just the same. We are caught between two rutting stags.

 

[yorksrob]

There's an old African saying that when elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled.

Passengers are the grass.

 

[yorksrob]

There is no savings in retained staff, the savings are long term when you start employing on half the salary, with exclusions to the railway pension fund, and lower standards for passengers. Meanwhile the set aim of the DFT is to force fares up as much as they can to eliminate subsidies. The fact that no country in the world has a unsubsidised public transport system is lost on these fools.
The tipping point for fare increases came about three years ago. It has now got to the point where passenger numbers are falling, but still the DFT puts out franchises to privateers who think in terms of passenger growth, it is utter drivel.

This is what it really boils down to.

Some years ago, a previous Government had an aim to reverse the balance between subsidy and farebox revenue. That should have stayed the aim and rises in real terms should have either been allowed to level off, or directed towards improvements once that re-balancing had been achieved. However such a compromise would never be ideologically pure enough for Conservative philosophy, and the unrealistic aim of driving down all subsidy is pursued to the detriment of the railway.

 

[Gems]

This is what it really boils down to.

Some years ago, a previous Government had an aim to reverse the balance between subsidy and farebox revenue. That should have stayed the aim and rises in real terms should have either been allowed to level off, or directed towards improvements once that re-balancing had been achieved. However such a compromise would never be ideologically pure enough for Conservative philosophy, and the unrealistic aim of driving down all subsidy is pursued to the detriment of the railway.

Absolutely correct. All they are doing to the railway is what they have done to education, social care, NHS etc. It was bound to be the railways turn for the Tory treatment and ideology at some point.

In years to come when passenger number have continued to fall, fares have risen over and over, ASLEF have continued to extract higher and higher wages, and the passengers are left to fend for themselves, people will ask. "What happened" But it won't bother me, I'll be retired and won't use the trains.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wilkinson let the cat out of the bag. But there is nothing they can do about ASLEF is there. There is no savings in retained staff, the savings are long term when you start employing on half the salary, with exclusions to the railway pension fund, and lower standards for passengers. Meanwhile the set aim of the DFT is to force fares up as much as they can to eliminate subsidies. The fact that no country in the world has a unsubsidised public transport system is lost on these fools.
The tipping point for fare increases came about three years ago. It has now got to the point where passenger numbers are falling, but still the DFT puts out franchises to privateers who think in terms of passenger growth, it is utter drivel.

That said, let us not forget the other side of this coin. Today is another strike day, and despite my annoyance with having no real voice in the union that supposedly represents me, I'll stay at home. But for some of us we want a voice, and we don't have one. So as undemocratic as the DFT and Tory party might be, the RMT is just the same. We are caught between two rutting stags.

The common denominator is that the RMT top team could be replaced if the membership wished - just like the Government and MPs can be replaced if the electorate vote accordingly.
It's quite possible that unhappy Tories will vote out a few MPs over their Brexit issues (no, please don't start on that too !! ) - but there seems little likelihood of disgruntled ordinary RMT members doing anything about their current situation at all......

 

[Starmill]

One person coming in on strike days.

Just one individual guard in the whole business comes in on strike days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd still love to hear the DfT explain their ultimate aim. Paying the same staff the same money doesn't save (much) money. Let's have some honesty.

That is a very fair point. OBS working does have its advantages, but having watched a Southern one at work recently it didn't strike me that any significant time (maybe 5 seconds per stop for "ding ding, ding ding"?) would have been saved by him not pressing the button with "close" on it. Where you'd really gain would be something like Merseyrail where level boarding will be offered at all stations, so the OBS won't need to go to the doors at each station and look for those requiring assistance, as nobody *will* require assistance to board. They would be more like a tram conductor, potentially, who does nothing other than sell and check tickets.

But then I expected OBS to be a sham role which would soon be abolished in favour of no second member of staff at all, and it doesn't seem to have turned out that way. It's a strange world.

 

[Robertj21a]

That is a very fair point. OBS working does have its advantages, but having watched a Southern one at work recently it didn't strike me that any significant time (maybe 5 seconds per stop for "ding ding, ding ding"?) would have been saved by him not pressing the button with "close" on it. Where you'd really gain would be something like Merseyrail where level boarding will be offered at all stations, so the OBS won't need to go to the doors at each station and look for those requiring assistance, as nobody *will* require assistance to board. They would be more like a tram conductor, potentially, who does nothing other than sell and check tickets.

But then I expected OBS to be a sham role which would soon be abolished in favour of no second member of staff at all, and it doesn't seem to have turned out that way. It's a strange world.

I believe the OBS recruited from outside (as against those who are ex-guards) were employed for their customer-facing skills and could be trained to be effective relatively quickly, since they weren't required to carry out all the duties of a guard. They appear to cover the whole of the Southern network wherever a guard is not essential, but the train can operate without an OBS in 'exceptional circumstances'. I'm not sure but they may also carry out other routine duties if they involve revenue control.
I guess that there are some overall benefits from the reduced training need, and greater flexibility, which justifies their significant salary.

 

[Eccles1983]

Just one individual guard in the whole business comes in on strike days?

On the west as far as I am aware yes.

 

[Starmill]

But then I expected OBS to be a sham role which would soon be abolished in favour of no second member of staff at all

GTR committed to keep them until 2021, so I suspect you will need to revise this opinion at the award of the successor franchise.

 

[LOL The Irony]

On the west as far as I am aware yes.

How many west side services are there?

 

[ainsworth74]

How many west side services are there?

Well over a thousand. Possibly getting up towards two thousand.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But then I expected OBS to be a sham role which would soon be abolished in favour of no second member of staff at all

We'll see after the next franchise round.

I wouldn't bet much on them still existing by 2025.

 

[Robertj21a]

We'll see after the next franchise round.

I wouldn't bet much on them still existing by 2025.

That would be 8 years from when they were first employed on Southern - far longer than applies to many other permanent jobs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be 8 years from when they were first employed on Southern - far longer than applies to many other permanent jobs.

I think it would be hard to guarantee, particularly if Brexit went very badly, that half of the Northern network will even exist in 8 years, let alone whether it will be crew operated or DOO.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it would be hard to guarantee, particularly if Brexit went very badly, that half of the Northern network will even exist in 8 years, let alone whether it will be crew operated or DOO.

Hopefully things aren't that bad. Yet.

But if passenger numbers fall off a cliff and don't recover, who knows what will happen. A reputation of always being on strike/cancelled will be hard to recover. After several years of the railway in the North being held in generally reasonable esteem, the current situation is truly disastrous.

Alan Williams' column on the subject in Decembers 'Modern Railways' is spot on.

 

[Gems]

Northern rail have 393 units, 93 new units capable of DCO operation still leaves 300 that aren't. Even if you include the 333's that knock around the Leeds North West area it would still leave 284, and nobody is sure if 333001 that has gone for upgrade is being fitted with cameras, it's been missing for three month. It is also widely rumored that another of the 333s is being cannibalised and used for spares.

With such a multitude of units, and many routes operating with a selection of units, it is palpable nonsense to even think that the whole of Northernrail will be DCO anytime soon. This leads to other issues that nobody seems able to answer. If you take Barrow depot as an example. If DCO units head south to Manchester, and non DCO units head north to Carlisle, how on earth do you roster that with some staff Safety Critical and others not. What do they do if they need to operate a non DCO unit to replace in new set in for repair. More palpable nonsense.

We all know more chaos is looming this May. More timetable changes and a promise that the new sets will be operating is simply pie in the sky. It takes 9 days to train up a driver on the sets, that is once again a lot of drivers missing from running trains. ASLEF have agreed an extension of the overtime agreement, it won't stop the chaos. Rostering in the early days will be a nightmare for Northern management. Good luck.

The only effective way of running DCO with limited stock capable is if you have the sets on dedicated routes. This is Northern's plan initially. However, rostering doesn't work like that. On the Leeds North West only 8 sets are planned to operate, they need a minimum of I believe 15 to 18 depending on the time of day. How do you roster that if half the crews are not safety critical? More palpable nonsense.

I seriously think non of this has seriously been thought about. I also seriously think Northern truly needed the RMT input and a working agreement to get this underway. Since nothing is forthcoming, I see trouble ahead.

Now for the RMT.

It is utter rubbish to pretend that these strikes are faultlessly supported. As many commentators on here have rightly pointed out, scrap overtime working and you will get cancelled trains, but you will also get a steady stream of guards coming back, and many will breath a sigh of relief. If you think this isn't the case then answer me this. "If guards really wanted to cause massive disruption in the union strongholds of the west, why are more services not cancelled on a Sunday". Their agreement is such that they could bring the whole show to a grinding halt, but it doesn't happen does it.
Northern are frightened of saying " No rest day working" because they are unsure of the response. They are being battered that much by a poor service generally, provoking more would be a disaster.

 

[njamescouk]

Northern have just issued an update to stakeholders:

how can it be independent, northern have just set the terms of reference!

 

[Bantamzen]

I strongly suspect that Northern and the RMT would have reached agreement donkeys years ago, were it not for the machinations of the DfT, which would have resulted in having a train service - which is the important thing, not meaningless drivel about 'blackmail' from Unions.

And this is the heart of the matter. Arriva would almost certainly want to find a resolution. They are a business, they want to make money but they can only do so if their trains run. After 45 days of disruption in a normal business sense they would well on their way to a resolution. But as you rightly note, the hand of DfT is at play here.

If it is of such vital National importance that we 'beat' the unions, how come it is only Northern passengers who are required to sacrifice their journeys, and their customers, who are required to sacrifice their businesses, for this great cause, rather than passengers and businesses in other areas such as Scotland, Anglia and Merseyside.

Because Northern is situated where there is no devolved governance like Scotland, is much bigger than Merseyside and frankly is outside the London commuter belt like Anglia. For a government like this one it is the perfect storm, an ideological battle against a big union without the risk of causing issues in the Home Counties.

 

[yorksrob]

And this is the heart of the matter. Arriva would almost certainly want to find a resolution. They are a business, they want to make money but they can only do so if their trains run. After 45 days of disruption in a normal business sense they would well on their way to a resolution. But as you rightly note, the hand of DfT is at play here.



Because Northern is situated where there is no devolved governance like Scotland, is much bigger than Merseyside and frankly is outside the London commuter belt like Anglia. For a government like this one it is the perfect storm, an ideological battle against a big union without the risk of causing issues in the Home Counties.

Until the North needs finds its own voice at the ballot box and dilutes the power of the London parties and their minions in the civil service, it's difficult to see how this will change