Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[PR1Berske]

Yes, that's what the word "may" means.

So if HS2 creates new services into Euston while cutting services up north, we northerners are supposed to accept that, are we?

As I said, the direct answer to the question at the start of this thread is because the project only benefits the South. But why should we up north continue to accept such bias?

 

[Tetchytyke]

'll ask again then as you must have missed it last time, what do you do once the full length trains are full?

Worry about it in 30 years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm. That's if HS2b gets built and that's if they build the crayonista tunnel avoiding Curzon Street. I'll believe it when I see it.

The link from Phase 1 to the WCML is not a "crayonista thing" and is arguably more important than Curzon Street itself, because Curzon Street can only remove 3tph from the south WCML, whereas that link can remove 5tph (the other 1 is the Chester/North Wales service whose future is rather more controversial with a few options). It will be built.

 

[6Gman]

I understand that a 5-carriage 378 trundling across the Euston throat at peak time is the issue and a 250mph vanity project won't solve it. Do you?

Do they though?

I thought the DC lines were grade-separated at Camden Jn DC Lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worry about it in 30 years?

Then wait another 30 years to build HS2 then?

It's a long term project, it is about long-term thinking. Refreshing, really, as the UK is awful at that generally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the issue is peak time capacity for commuters, longer trains at the same frequency meets that need. It's what's happening on Thameslink and Crossrail.

Sorry, missed this before.

I'm now even more convinced that you have never even seen peak-time south WCML operations.

Thameslink uses a mix of 12x20m and 8x20m trains.

Crossrail will use (quick Google) 200m trains, which is shorter than many peak WCML trains.

The morning and evening peak south WCML operation uses, er, a mix of 12x20m and 8x20m trains. There are no peak-direction 4-car trains at all, or if there are they are an unintentional short-form.

Don't get fixated on LO which is barely relevant.

 

[Esker-pades]

They can't fit more trains on the WCML because so much of the capacity is swallowed up by piddly little trains.

You appear to have used your experience of one overcrowded Voyager journey and extrapolated it out to all services. Your assertion is not true. The majority of trains are full length. The ones that aren't have reasons such as:

• They stop at short platforms which cannot accomodate more than X coaches (see the current services to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent)
• There isn't enough rolling stock to make the train double or triple length
• It's silly to put 12 coaches on the 12:34 from Euston to Tring

If the issue is peak time capacity for commuters, longer trains at the same frequency meets that need. It's what's happening on Thameslink and Crossrail.

Both of those increased the frequency on their routes. (Or will in Crossrail's case.)

I understand that a 5-carriage 378 trundling across the Euston throat at peak time is the issue and a 250mph vanity project won't solve it. Do you?

So, scrap the Watford DC line? Or, make the 378s longer? How much longer before they exceed the platform length at South Kenton (or any other DC line station)? Adding an additional carriage to a 378 won't mean that there are more trains to Milton Keynes.

Worry about it in 30 years?

Where have you got that figure from?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Have you ever even used it?

Lived in Hemel for several years. And there's a lot of wibble aboit how everything is at capacity without looking at it in more detail.

The 8-cars are busy but not overflowing, but you'd have to stand to/from Watford. The 12-cars are rammed at the front and empty at the back (I often got a table to myself in the back carriage on the 0805 from Hemel to Euston).

You'd struggle to squeeze more trains into Euston in peak time, yes. But capacity? There's loads to go at yet.

And leaving aside all that, I'm yet to see a compelling argument as to how HS2 will improve any of this. Turning the IC trains into semi-fast services won't do a great deal, will it? MKC is the limit of WCML commuter capacity constraints. And there's no reason why IC trains can't stop at MKC anyway, or pick up at WFJ (other than Virgin).

 

[PR1Berske]

I'll ask again then as you must have missed it last time, what do you do once the full length trains are full?

Look at the timetables. See if you can run trains at different times. Look at running trains from different stations. Look at how technology will reduce passenger numbers. Increase the size of trains . Build new stations. Be more flexible with timetables.

There are no capacity problems on the WCML that couldn't be solved with better thinking. Just going "build a new line to Birmingham" ignores what could be done to the WCML with a bit of professionalism.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There isn't enough rolling stock to make the train double or triple length

Don't you think that £100bn will help with that?

Both of those increased the frequency on their routes.

Only through the core.

 

[Esker-pades]

To answer the title of this thread directly, "because it only improves rail services to London and ignores the North." Recent responses so nothing to change my mind.

I'll have a go:
HS2 will remove the bulk of express services from the West Coast Main Line meaning those paths can be used for other trains.

By serving London to Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc. it also serves connections between those cities.

Let's examine Manchester:
Removing 3tph from the bottleneck that is Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly means that additional trains can run from Chester via Knutsford, Buxton etc. without having to wait outside Stockport or use the slow lines or terminate at Altrincham.
Removing the 2tph from the Stoke to Manchester line means that long-suffering commuter towns like Congleton can get the service that they need and deserve.

Look at the timetables. See if you can run trains at different times. Look at running trains from different stations. Look at how technology will reduce passenger numbers. Increase the size of trains . Build new stations. Be more flexible with timetables.

There are no capacity problems on the WCML that couldn't be solved with better thinking. Just going "build a new line to Birmingham" ignores what could be done to the WCML with a bit of professionalism.

So all the timetablers at Network Rail have got the WCML wrong and you've got it right? And yet whenever you're challenged it becomes "flexible timetables", "technology" which don't mean anything. If you can actually produce a timetable which works and includes all the additional services that HS2 will allow, then please do so. Otherwise....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Crossrail will use (quick Google) 200m trains, which is shorter than many peak WCML trains.

They use the space more efficiently, though. Wider gangways, wider aisles, and not losing 5-10% of the length to locked-out cabs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 8-cars are busy but not overflowing, but you'd have to stand to/from Watford

Some of the 8-car services are full and standing.

The 12-cars are rammed at the front and empty at the back (I often got a table to myself in the back carriage on the 0805 from Hemel to Euston).

With some of them that is true, but with quite a number of them they are full and standing right to the front now. There's been more growth since you were around.

And leaving aside all that, I'm yet to see a compelling argument as to how HS2 will improve any of this. Turning the IC trains into semi-fast services won't do a great deal, will it?

Replacing some of the IC trains with Northampton fasts will allow more slow trains to be run using the slow-line paths - and it's those ones that are packed out. There is also the possibility of running services like "fast to Tring then all stations to MKC" running on the fast lines as far as the crossover south of Ledburn (I forget where that is now).

 

[PR1Berske]

So all the timetablers at Network Rail have got the WCML wrong and you've got it right?

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They use the space more efficiently, though. Wider gangways, wider aisles, and not losing 5-10% of the length to locked-out cabs.

Do you really think operating trains like that all the way out to Northampton is sensible? OK, they will run to Reading, but the intention is not that Reading commuters will use them, they will use 12-car Electrostar fasts which are exactly the same space-wise as a 12-car set of Class 350s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

What if there isn't one, bar whacking fares up to price people off?

 

[PR1Berske]

What if there isn't one, bar whacking fares up to price people off?

What prices are proposed for HS2? Can't imagine it will be cheap.

We could find ourselves in a situation where HS2 is too expensive for ordinary people to use, while the neglected WCML is too slow for people to bother with!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

Here you go: https://iebsprodnwrl.omcs.networkra...DISPLAY&p_svid=2134053&p_spid=6820393&refsh=0

 

[EM2]

Worry about it in 30 years?

Why not worry about it now?

 

[EM2]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

Please come to Milton Keynes and show us where we've gone wrong, then.

 

[Esker-pades]

Don't you think that £100bn will help with that?

As has been pointed out, it is a short term solution. HS2 is a long term solution.

Only through the core.

Wrong. Peak time services on the Shenfield branch increase, peak time services on the GWML increase, additional 2tph to Heathrow, an infinate capacity increase from Abbey Wood to Canary Wharf (new track). As for Thameslink: 6tph Cambridge to London rather than 4 previously, additional commuter services to Welwyn GC, doubling of services on the Catford Loop Line, extra peak capacity to Maidstone.

 

[PR1Berske]

Here you go: https://iebsprodnwrl.omcs.networkra...DISPLAY&p_svid=2134053&p_spid=6820393&refsh=0

Closing date today. Shame that.

 

[6Gman]

Look at the timetables. See if you can run trains at different times. Look at running trains from different stations. Look at how technology will reduce passenger numbers. Increase the size of trains . Build new stations. Be more flexible with timetables.

There are no capacity problems on the WCML that couldn't be solved with better thinking. Just going "build a new line to Birmingham" ignores what could be done to the WCML with a bit of professionalism.

Look at the timetables - are you suggesting the existing operators don't?
See if you can run trains at different times - what does this even mean?
... from different stations - again, what are you suggesting? Do you not think the train operators don't already do this? Given the dominance of Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool as destinations where else are you suggesting?
Look at how technology will reduce numbers - genuinely "begging the question" [i.e. assuming technology will reduce numbers]. We have had an explosion in technology over the past 20-30 years accompanied by increasing rail usage.
Increase the size of trains - already discussed at length. Some potential, but also many difficulties.
Build new stations - where? Why?
Be more flexible with timetables - in what way? A standard hourly pattern (supplemented in the peaks) is by far the best way to maximise capacity.

"Better thinking" is just an empty slogan.

 

[Esker-pades]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

In which case, please come back with a proposed timetable that will have the same capacity benefits as HS2. Then there will be actual evidence that current timetablers have got it wrong and are not thinking enough.

 

[6Gman]

Short answer, yes. Otherwise they would have found a solution instead of having to build a multi million line from Euston to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

Bloke from Preston - with a professional background in ... well, what exactly @PR1Berske ? - knows more about railway planning than the people who do it for a living.

 

[camflyer]

Worry about it in 30 years?

"Worry about it in 30 years" is precisely the reason we are in such a mess now with our transport infrastructure. All of the megaprojects which we are fretting about now should have been built 30 years ago.

 

[Esker-pades]

Bloke from Preston - with a professional background in ... well, what exactly @PR1Berske ? - knows more about railway planning than the people who do it for a living.

I'm very interested. If they can come back with a timetable that does everything HS2 is supposed to do with the existing infrastructure, I'd love to see it. Until then, I remain sceptical.

 

[PR1Berske]

Bloke from Preston - with a professional background in ... well, what exactly @PR1Berske ? - knows more about railway planning than the people who do it for a living.

The people who do it for a living have failed if they're having to concede to a multimillion pound experiment connecting London to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

I would love to have the opportunity to rewrite the timetables, to prove there's another way than HS2.

 

[EM2]

Closing date today. Shame that.

There's a couple of others.
https://iebsprodnwrl.omcs.networkra...DISPLAY&p_svid=2138557&p_spid=6845811&refsh=0
https://iebsprodnwrl.omcs.networkra...DISPLAY&p_svid=2139173&p_spid=6846077&refsh=0
And there's always Operational Planner vacancies coming up.

 

[Clip]

The people who do it for a living have failed if they're having to concede to a multimillion pound experiment connecting London to Birmingham with no intermediate stops.

I would love to have the opportunity to rewrite the timetables, to prove there's another way than HS2.

Please do then thats all we ask - we can wait for your report