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Level crossing incident Horsham 28/1/19

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Deafdoggie

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As an aside, is it 'amber' or 'yellow'? Here railway usage meets road usage. The wig-wag reds are preceded by – what? The colour is plainly yellow in both regimes, yet the Highway Code persists in this use of the word 'amber'. Amber is a substance, it is fossilised tree resin. Yellow is the colour. We could extend this use of the names of 'stuff' to describe railway signals “ - as I came round the curve I saw that the signal was blood, but it immediately cleared to grass with out the intervening amber”. How crazy is that?

The Met office have just upgraded the weather warning from Yellow to Amber. Amber is seen as more dangerous than yellow. The idea is make drivers think of Amber lights as dangerous. Lots of words have more than one meaning, It's not new.
 
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LAX54

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I think you need to visit some of the crossing here on the south coast. I was at Portslade the other day and after we arrived the barriers lifted. We were due at the station for about 3 mins and just before they left the alarms went, the lights flashed and the barriers came down. I saw one car and thought, they are pushing it, followed by another, and then a 4x4 whose roof was hit by the barrier skirts. I've also seen the barrier here come down on someone on a mobility scooter who crossed after the lights has started. It is just silly.

Everyday happening at I would suggest almost every CCTV (and AHB) crossing in the Country ! Drivers seem unable to grasp the concept of a red light, let alone a yellow one ! Many say, I saw the reds, but I did not want to be delayed by 5 mins, I have a place to be.
 

GB

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Why not have wig-wags AND “Normal” traffic lights? They could be sited a little distance back from the crossing barrier, complete with the normal stop-line on the road surface and any other “Normal” features. This is the right set of visual cues for a road user, it means STOP in no uncertain terms. And it should be easy to do, the traffic lights triggered to red by the initial yellow of the wig-wag, and cleared to green as soon as the wig-wags stop.

As an aside, (I hope you'll allow it, oh Mods) is it 'amber' or 'yellow'? Here railway usage meets road usage. The wig-wag reds are preceded by – what? The colour is plainly yellow in both regimes, yet the Highway Code persists in this use of the word 'amber'. Amber is a substance, it is fossilised tree resin. Yellow is the colour. We could extend this use of the names of 'stuff' to describe railway signals “ - as I came round the curve I saw that the signal was blood, but it immediately cleared to grass with out the intervening amber”. How crazy is that?
A route indicating "feather" could be "Snow".

"Amber" is the correct word when referring to the initial phase of the level crossing sequence on both railways and highways.

There is no need to change the lights. They are not unique to the railways and anybody that claims they don't know what a red light means (flashing or otherwise) shouldn't have a license. People that jump lights at crossing will still do so even if they were conventional traffic lights....not because they don't understand but because they are chancers or the type of people that think they know better or that the rules don't apply to them.
 

Robsignals

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I got there before the police or anyone official had arrived. I needed to get to the far platform for my train so I looked left and right a few times and walked my bike across. This was obviously a risk but there are foot crossings just up the track and when you are a pedestrian, you can see if the line is clear even when standing far back from the track.

From the platform I was shocked to see several cars (at least 10) driving across. Many of them nudged their way across, some even stopped completely to see if the line was clear whilst their front wheels were over the tracks! A train arrived heading towards Eastbourne extremely slowly and cautiously, and a couple of cars drove across in front of it! I couldn't really believe the stupidity, but I suppose nothing should surprise me by now.

I had never thought about different settings for through trains, but it clearly makes sense. I will see what happens tomorrow. I've caught the 8.01 train most weekdays since August and yesterday was the first time that the crossing has gone down so early.

Wallsend is MCB-OD and will normally work automatically, evidently using a delayed timing for stopping trains derived from Timetable Database.
"Amber" is the correct word when referring to the initial phase of the level crossing sequence on both railways and highways.

There is no need to change the lights. They are not unique to the railways and anybody that claims they don't know what a red light means (flashing or otherwise) shouldn't have a license. People that jump lights at crossing will still do so even if they were conventional traffic lights....not because they don't understand but because they are chancers or the type of people that think they know better or that the rules don't apply to them.

People think of the flashing as being like a dotted line not an absolute stop, another example of the public going for the opposite meaning to what was intended like the official meaning of flashing your headlights is "I'm coming on".
 

GB

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People think of the flashing as being like a dotted line not an absolute stop

Speculation and conjecture....and I would wager my salary that if there was a marked police car sitting by the crossing people would not be running the reds or weaving round barriers.
 

Dieseldriver

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"Amber" is the correct word when referring to the initial phase of the level crossing sequence on both railways and highways.

There is no need to change the lights. They are not unique to the railways and anybody that claims they don't know what a red light means (flashing or otherwise) shouldn't have a license. People that jump lights at crossing will still do so even if they were conventional traffic lights....not because they don't understand but because they are chancers or the type of people that think they know better or that the rules don't apply to them.
100% agree with you. People don't misuse level crossings because they're confused by what a flashing red light means.
 

tsr

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Speculation and conjecture....and I would wager my salary that if there was a marked police car sitting by the crossing people would not be running the reds or weaving round barriers.

They do it in full view of camera vans painted dayglo yellow in some places...
 

Re 4/4

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I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

I used to live near the Cumberland Basin swing bridge in Bristol; it had wig-wags and giant advance warning signs of the rotating prism type. Every single time I saw it rotate, there were drivers who went through the wig-wags and formed a small queue before the bright orange physical barrier across the road.

A while back I saw the bridge swing with the wig-wags off and instead temporary traffic lights had been put up with the usual "when red light shows wait HERE" sign. Compliance was much better, at least the few times I saw it. I haven't been back there for a while now so I can't say if it's still that way.
 

SussexMan

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Wallsend is MCB-OD and will normally work automatically, evidently using a delayed timing for stopping trains derived from Timetable Database.

It sounds wrong to call something "manually controlled" but then say it works automatically. Wikipedia suggests something different.

MCB-OD - Manually Controlled Barriers with Obstacle Detection
These crossings are MCBs with the addition of obstacle detection equipment, developed and tested at a level crossing at Filey, North Yorkshire, in 2010. These use LIDAR, radar and cameras to detect if the crossing is blocked by any vehicle, and cameras to record number plates. They also include lasers and reflectors to scan the crossing and see if it is blocked. These crossings are becoming common on some lines, such as the East Coastway Line and the Peterborough to Lincoln Line. They are operated by a signaller simply pressing a button, but they can switch on CCTV cameras at the crossing if they so wish.

Which is right?
 

Islineclear3_1

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As an aside, (I hope you'll allow it, oh Mods) is it 'amber' or 'yellow'? Here railway usage meets road usage. The wig-wag reds are preceded by – what? The colour is plainly yellow in both regimes, yet the Highway Code persists in this use of the word 'amber'. Amber is a substance, it is fossilised tree resin. Yellow is the colour. We could extend this use of the names of 'stuff' to describe railway signals “ - as I came round the curve I saw that the signal was blood, but it immediately cleared to grass with out the intervening amber”. How crazy is that?
A route indicating "feather" could be "Snow".

At the risk of going OT, "amber" is a gold/orange colour or yellow/orange on a colour wheel - but, there are various "shades" of amber.

It is therefore actually a colour
 

Tomnick

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It sounds wrong to call something "manually controlled" but then say it works automatically. Wikipedia suggests something different.



Which is right?
Wikipedia is a way off the mark there. The principle is well established, though, with MCB-CCTV crossings commonly having an auto-lower feature (so that the signalman’s only input, if that’s turned on, is to check the monitors and press ‘crossing clear’). This is a logical extension of that, and I’m sure that the facility exists for the crossing sequence to be initiated manually (and for auto-raise to be turned off).
 

BR Boy 125

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I don't agree. Red lights flashing but some barriers are up? That is sending mixed messages. I would certainly be anxious enough to speak to the crossing operator.
Well. There are some single branch lines that only have red flashing lights and no barriers and that seems to be enough to warn drivers. You do have the argument that they are only used to both but they could obviously see the other barrier so they would've just needed some common sense that there was a malfunction in one of the barriers.
 

Esker-pades

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Well. There are some single branch lines that only have red flashing lights and no barriers and that seems to be enough to warn drivers. You do have the argument that they are only used to both but they could obviously see the other barrier so they would've just needed some common sense that there was a malfunction in one of the barriers.
If there are barriers at level crossing, I expect them to be used. I maintain my position that this would cause serious motorist confusion.
 

al78

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Well. There are some single branch lines that only have red flashing lights and no barriers and that seems to be enough to warn drivers. You do have the argument that they are only used to both but they could obviously see the other barrier so they would've just needed some common sense that there was a malfunction in one of the barriers.

Do level crossings have a phone so someone can be contacted in the event of a malfunction? I know the unbarriered crossings do but wondered if it was universal.
 

Llanigraham

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If there are barriers at level crossing, I expect them to be used. I maintain my position that this would cause serious motorist confusion.
There are red flashing light controls outside numerous Fire and Ambulance stations, and these don't have barriers; do these cause confusion to drivers?
 

alxndr

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Do level crossings have a phone so someone can be contacted in the event of a malfunction? I know the unbarriered crossings do but wondered if it was universal.

Usually only AHB have telephones provided. Open crossings don't have to have them either.

Personally I think all crossings should have phones, but realistically I know the average member of the public probably wouldn't notice or bother to report any concerns even if there was one.
 

LAX54

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Usually only AHB have telephones provided. Open crossings don't have to have them either.

Personally I think all crossings should have phones, but realistically I know the average member of the public probably wouldn't notice or bother to report any concerns even if there was one.
CCTV's have a plate with a contact number on it, both sides of the crossing, well all our CCTV's do (Anglia Region) !
 

LAX54

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But this level crossing does. Therefore, the expectation is that they close when a train comes. I've already explained this.

But it is so so simple ! Red Flashing Lights: STOP, no ifs, no buts.....STOP ! If the crossing has failed, then that is bad luck, you still cannot cross, the Signaller will not let you cross if you ring, and the Police will not let you cross either.

If the barriers are down due to a failure, it is not an invitation to zig zag around, although quite a few numpties do ! best option take an alternate route, the S&T and MOM will be en route, but may take 20 / 30 mins to get there.
 

Deafdoggie

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But it is so so simple ! Red Flashing Lights: STOP, no ifs, no buts.....STOP ! If the crossing has failed, then that is bad luck, you still cannot cross, the Signaller will not let you cross if you ring, and the Police will not let you cross either.

If the barriers are down due to a failure, it is not an invitation to zig zag around, although quite a few numpties do ! best option take an alternate route, the S&T and MOM will be en route, but may take 20 / 30 mins to get there.

But it is never that simple is it? Why do we have SPAD's on the railway? Are all train drivers numpties? No, of course not, the fact is, other factors come in to play, particulaly in times when things are not working correctly. There are lots of SPADs over the years caused by train drivers acting incorrectly when they see something they were not expecting. This doesn't make them a numpty. To say everyone who responds incorrectly to an unusal circumstance is a numpty, is a little unfair.

Yes, red means stop,, I know of noone who does not know that (car or train driver) so why do cars and trains pass red lights? There are many more reasons than just deliberate.
 

al78

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There are red flashing light controls outside numerous Fire and Ambulance stations, and these don't have barriers; do these cause confusion to drivers?

No, because roads outside fire and ambulance stations and roads in general (save high level routes where winter snow can close them) do not have barriers, so people will see and react to such lights in the same way as a traffic light.
 

tsr

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There are red flashing light controls outside numerous Fire and Ambulance stations, and these don't have barriers; do these cause confusion to drivers?

In my area they are used so rarely people don’t expect them, and some of them are half-hidden by vegetation, so generally they do cause confusion if they get illuminated, and tend to be ignored even more than level crossings!

In one case, the red “wig-wags” are designed so stupidly that they also face towards fire appliances emerging from the fire station, so if nobody drove past, the local town would probaby have caught fire at least once by now...

Those fire stations on genuinely tricky road layouts (where blue lights on the vehicles themselves would not suffice) tend to be situated on a custom-built junction where the sequence / priority on regular-looking traffic lights is simply set to favour emergency vehicles.

It’s interesting to note that even where trams operate at reasonably brisk speeds, albeit on (vaguely) line-of-sight driving, road traffic is typically controlled by normal traffic lights, and pedestrians get normal crossing lights or no indications at all. Trams don’t seem to have any more collisions than other large vehicles such as HGVs and the lights are generally seen as entirely normal, just with a different type of vehicle crossing.

(As an aside, in central Croydon at the moment, there appears to have been an update to the traffic lights which has inadvertently meant that once a tram clears a junction, the road traffic lights go straight from red to green, skipping the red+amber phase, which is proving rather popular with motorists.)
 

Esker-pades

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But it is so so simple! Red Flashing Lights: STOP, no ifs, no buts.....STOP ! If the crossing has failed, then that is bad luck, you still cannot cross, the Signaller will not let you cross if you ring, and the Police will not let you cross either.

If the barriers are down due to a failure, it is not an invitation to zig zag around, although quite a few numpties do ! best option take an alternate route, the S&T and MOM will be en route, but may take 20 / 30 mins to get there.
The barriers were up in this situation. If there are 2 indicators, 1 telling me one thing, 1 telling me another thing, I will get confused. I am not unique in this.
 

GB

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The barriers were up in this situation. If there are 2 indicators, 1 telling me one thing, 1 telling me another thing, I will get confused. I am not unique in this.

Common sense, logic, critical thinking and deductive reasoning all go out the window does it?
 

Deafdoggie

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Common sense, logic, critical thinking and deductive reasoning all go out the window does it?

The older members on here probably remember "Ding-Ding & Away" being an issue for train drivers and causing SPADs. The guard would give two on the bell, and the train would set off, as the driver acknowledged the bells, but ignored the signal. The red light told him to stop, but the bells told him to go. That is why they introduced not giving the bells till the signal is clear.

It is very common, and very easy, to ignore one visual clue, when given a conflicting one.
 

Lockwood

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In one case, the red “wig-wags” are designed so stupidly that they also face towards fire appliances emerging from the fire station, so if nobody drove past, the local town would probaby have caught fire at least once by now...
Would this be somewhere in mostly SWR land with regular GWR and occasional visitors, where they moved the fire station one building up the road a few years ago?
Seen those in use once, fire engine was a fair way up the road, doors closing, road lights still on.
Compliance there was good when the engine was driving out, then very poor once the engine had gone away.
 

LAX54

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The barriers were up in this situation. If there are 2 indicators, 1 telling me one thing, 1 telling me another thing, I will get confused. I am not unique in this.

Errr no .....RED FLASHING LIGHTS.....ummm STOP :) if you were approaching a crossing, with booms up but lights flashing, you'd go on and not stop ? If you were at the crossing, and only one went up, you would obviously know there was a problem :)
 

Robsignals

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It sounds wrong to call something "manually controlled" but then say it works automatically. Wikipedia suggests something different.



Which is right?

MCB means full barriers protected by rail signals which can only be cleared when the barriers are detected down and the crossing proved clear, this has been by observation often using CCTV and now by Object Detection using local radar and laser scanning but not cameras. If an obstruction is detected the barriers rise and then lower again, if still not clear they rise and an alarm is given to the signaller so they normally operate automatically (with reduced staffing) but a signaller has ultimate responsibility for dealing with problems.
 
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