(Satire) "Stakes rising for woman with table seat on train"

[yorksrob]

A particular problem on 390s I find (from the perspective of the person walking past), because it seems people are incapable of keeping their extremities within the confines of their seat, but insist on draping them halfway across the aisle.

Also, walking into a laptop that was moved into an obstructing position (IIRC in an airline seat) at the exact moment I passed. No damage, but it was very nearly trapped between me and the seat back, or pulled onto the floor.

Or walking into the charging cable draped across the aisle at around knee height, between family members (battery pack on one side, phone/tablet on the other), which did result in the device being pulled out of the users hands and hitting the deck.

As others have said, it's shared space. It's not your living room.

Yes, people on electronic devices seem to have a tendency to stick their elbow 'over the line'.

 

[scotrail158713]

That’s nice. Sit next to me if you’re a man I don’t know when you don’t have to and you automatically go in the category of “weirdo”.

And lots of women will take the same attitude.

Since gender equality is such a big talking point in society currently, surely women should follow the same logic - and not sit next to men. Yet I’ve had women sit next to me before. (It didn’t bother me though)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Besides, even if I sit next to another bloke how to they know I won't try to assault them either? I obviously wouldn't but it shows my point.

To put another perspective on this, it can make sense in narrow seating for men to sit next to women, as men tend to have wide shoulders and narrow backsides, while women are the other way round - so in narrow (3+2) seating a man can sit next to a woman without any contact, while it's almost impossible for a man to sit next to a man or a woman next to a woman without one either extending into the aisle or them pressing against one another.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes. As I explained above, we don't know you aren't a weirdo. I don't think most men realise how often we get groped or harassed on public transport. Please find a man to sit next to.

What a sexist post. No wonder men get fed up with trying to treat women with respect.

 

[Wombat]

Someone, possibly Eddie Izzard, came up with a great way of ensuring that the seats next to you remain unoccupied. The method is simply to make sustained eye contact with anyone approaching, smile manically and vigorously pat the seat next to you in invitation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a sexist post. No wonder men get fed up with trying to treat women with respect.

It both upsets me that there are women who consider me a predator, and that there are enough men who *are* predators to make that fear founded.

 

[Robertj21a]

It both upsets me that there are women who consider me a predator, and that there are enough men who *are* predators to make that fear founded.

Totally agree, but women objecting to men sitting next to them on a public service is getting into dangerous territory imho. Women are entitled to feel safe however they travel - if they have any problems there are ways in which they can handle it at the time, or report it later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're offended, do something about the pervs who keep groping and harassing us. It's not our fault.

That is basically the same as the oft-quoted "You're a Muslim, you do something about the terrorists", and it's just as ridiculous as that is. It's not the fault of right-thinking men either. We do not assume some kind of collective guilt simply from being male, and I find it quite offensive when feminists imply that we do or should.

Sexual assault and the likes do need taking very seriously indeed, probably much more seriously than they are now, but I don't see how I as a random bloke who is not in support of other men acting like that is going to be able to do something about it beyond stepping in if I actually see it taking place. There isn't some random Facebook group with all men on it where I can just post something asking them to stop it.

And to add a bit of a note, a bloke is more of a physical threat to a woman partly because blokes are generally stronger (and being 6' 4" and built like a rugby player I can see why people might see me as a physical threat, though in actual fact I'm about the least violent person in the world and would only be a physical threat to someone who attempted to attack me, and even then I'd run away if it was an option) and because when the male and female organs were given out we were given the one that could be used to cause damage without consent, whereas women weren't. But equally, women do sometimes sexually harass men, sometimes even in a physical way e.g. backside-pinching, and that is not OK either (and I was actually a victim of minor sexual-harrassment-type bullying at school). Would you agree that all women should be held responsible for the small number of them who do that? I don't think they should, even though it does need to stop[1], but that goes both ways.

[1] In essence, physically touching or harrassing someone else deliberately without consent isn't OK -whether they are male or female, straight or gay, adult or child or whatever.

 

[Ianno87]

Some men seem to get off on intimidating women.

Most, however, don't.

 

[scotrail158713]

What was initially a very interesting thread to read has become rather dull. I’m now leaving this thread alone and hopefully it'll be forgotten about in a few days time.

 

[al78]

Yes. As I explained above, we don't know you aren't a weirdo. I don't think most men realise how often we get groped or harassed on public transport. Please find a man to sit next to.

I was nearly killed by a careless driver three and a half years ago. I can't guarantee whenever I ride my bicycle that it won't happen again with another careless driver, with terminal consequences next time. That doesn't mean to say I am going to live my life in fear and never cycle on a road again, because firstly, serious cycling accidents are very unlikely for any individual, and secondly, curtailing my freedom by living in fear of a rare event is no way to live.

If you are really so paranoid that you see every man as a potential sexual predator, maybe you should avoid public spaces as much as possible, or seek counselling, because your attitude is very irrational. No woman has ever complained about me sitting next to them on a train, bus or tube, I tend to sit next to a woman because they are on average smaller than men, and so there is more space next to them.

 

[Gostav]

That is basically the same as the oft-quoted "You're a Muslim, you do something about the terrorists", and it's just as ridiculous as that is. It's not the fault of right-thinking men either. We do not assume some kind of collective guilt simply from being male, and I find it quite offensive when feminists imply that we do or should.

Sexual assault and the likes do need taking very seriously indeed, probably much more seriously than they are now, but I don't see how I as a random bloke who is not in support of other men acting like that is going to be able to do something about it beyond stepping in if I actually see it taking place. There isn't some random Facebook group with all men on it where I can just post something asking them to stop it.

And to add a bit of a note, a bloke is more of a physical threat to a woman partly because blokes are generally stronger (and being 6' 4" and built like a rugby player I can see why people might see me as a physical threat, though in actual fact I'm about the least violent person in the world and would only be a physical threat to someone who attempted to attack me, and even then I'd run away if it was an option) and because when the male and female organs were given out we were given the one that could be used to cause damage without consent, whereas women weren't. But equally, women do sometimes sexually harass men, sometimes even in a physical way e.g. backside-pinching, and that is not OK either (and I was actually a victim of minor sexual-harrassment-type bullying at school). Would you agree that all women should be held responsible for the small number of them who do that? I don't think they should, even though it does need to stop[1], but that goes both ways.

[1] In essence, physically touching or harrassing someone else deliberately without consent isn't OK -whether they are male or female, straight or gay, adult or child or whatever.

If people really really worried this, l think ladies only compartment train and ladies waiting room needs come back for UK, even many ladies waiting room still can be find at most old stations and it is not difficult to reopen them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If people really really worried this, l think ladies compartment train and ladies waiting room needs come back for UK, even many ladies waiting room still can be find at most old stations and reopen it would be not difficult.

I think that is admitting defeat on actually solving the problem.

 

[Mainliner]

If people really really worried this, l think ladies compartment train and ladies waiting room needs come back for UK, even many ladies waiting room still can be find at most old stations and reopen it would be not difficult.

That won’t work any more, if people are allowed to enter such spaces on the basis of the gender they identify as (see the already well-publicised problems in schools, prisons, etc)

 

[jon0844]

Or alternatively:

• Book four tickets around one table
• Book an entire carriage
• Buy a TOC then reserve an entire train

Seriously though, what do people expect on public transport? Its a shared transport mode, that means people have to share your space with other passengers. It is not their office, nor is it their lounge. It is a means of getting large numbers of people from a to b. If interacting with other people is an issue, then public transport might not be your best option. Otherwise, make the most of it, interact with your fellow passengers, your fellow human beings and make the most of it.

Only booking a carriage or reserving a whole train after acquiring a TOC would work. People have bought extra tickets for seats and found that if it's empty, someone else can still sit there!

Another solution might be to register as an open access operator and run a train to match your own personal needs. Don't buy a 180 even if they're soon offered cheap though.

 

[Darandio]

Well I find this attitude bizarre. Why on earth would anyone *want* to make things unnecessarily uncomfortable for someone else, and themself in the process?

So I get on your train and you are alone at a table of 4 and I sit opposite you because I quite fancy a window seat, that is making things unnecessarily uncomfortable for you? You effectively want a table of 4 to yourself and nobody should sit there because there may be a few aisle seats available?

And you cannot see that this is utterly bizarre behaviour?

 

[Robertj21a]

I think that is admitting defeat on actually solving the problem.

Quite agree, totally the wrong approach.

 

[Ianno87]

Quite agree, totally the wrong approach.

As well as seeming to 'legitimise' or 'normalise' such behaviour towards females.

 

[cuccir]

I wouldn't reject the notion quite so readily.

The way I see it, if the request is: "when arbitrarily choosing a seat, try to choose one next to a man rather than a woman" then that seems a fairly reasonable thing to ask, and to do. It costs nothing and if it's even just a portion of women who feel this way, then it may avoid making someone feel uncomfortable.

If the request is "never sit next to a woman", well that's harder to justify and make sense of. There may be other reasons for taking certain seats - need to be near a toilet, need to use a power socket, the fact of only travelling one stop, etc etc etc. As noted, it's public transport.

But, to incorporate as one factor into the decision making process doesn't seem to be too pernicious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, to incorporate as one factor into the decision making process doesn't seem to be too pernicious.

I think to some extent I do do that, if subconsciously. But given the choice of sitting next to another rugby-player-sized bloke or a woman, I would in most cases choose the woman so I'm not having to sit uncomfortably pressed up against another person. The only reason for this is that women are smaller generally.

Obviously if there was a double seat with nobody in it I would choose that with one exception - if the train was one I knew would get busy later I would leave a double seat with regular legroom empty to take a priority seat next to someone, as if I occupy a regular 3+2 double seat on a Class 350/2 nobody can occupy the other one (as my legs end up there due to the inadequate legroom), so taking that instead of the priority seat next to someone would be selfish.

 

[GoatSarah]

Is that not just discrimination though? Say people of a certain race had been making these comments, it wouldn’t be acceptable to try to stop anyone of that race sitting next to you, so why is it acceptable here?

Look, I’m not doing the groping and sexual harassment. I will do what I need to do to keep myself safe and unbothered by creeps.

If you don’t like it, have a word with the men who do it, don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Look, I’m not doing the groping and sexual harassment. I will do what I need to do to keep myself safe and unbothered by creeps.

If you don’t like it, have a word with the men who do it, don’t shoot the messenger.

I really suggest you seek professional help if your level of fear is great enough to cause your views to be this strong. Meanwhile, your approach is sexist (it is not my job to deal with a problem I am not involved in - it is, as I said above, just as unacceptable as blaming the majority of Muslims for terrorism), and if, on a train where there is someone in each unit of seating, I wish to sit next to you, I will do so, and if you don't like it and would prefer to sit next to another woman, you move to a seat next to another woman. I obviously won't follow, I don't want to sit next to you personally, I want that seat, which I am perfectly entitled to for any reason of my choosing.

If you do not wish to share space with other passengers, go by car or taxi. Trains are public transport, and one aspect of public transport is sharing space with the public.

 

[GoatSarah]

If you are really so paranoid that you see every man as a potential sexual predator, maybe you should avoid public spaces as much as possible, or seek counselling, because your attitude is very irrational. No woman has ever complained about me sitting next to them on a train, bus or tube, I tend to sit next to a woman because they are on average smaller than men, and so there is more space next to them.

We don’t complain at the time because we learn, very quickly, that men who harass us often take public rejection or any kind of resistance very badly indeed. We are frightened that you’re going to hurt us.

If you think my view is unusual amongst women, you’re going to completely lose it when you find out about Ask For Angela.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don’t complain at the time because we learn, very quickly, that men who harass us often take public rejection or any kind of resistance very badly indeed. We are frightened that you’re going to hurt us.

If you think my view is unusual amongst women, you’re going to completely lose it when you find out about Ask For Angela.

Ask for Angela is a great idea. What does that have to do with sitting next to people on public transport?

(I agree that sitting next to someone if there is a double seat available is a bit odd, but if all double seats already have someone in them, or the seat you are in has a special feature like a table or extra legroom, that's just how it is and you need to learn to manage your fears)

 

[GoatSarah]

I obviously won't follow

That’s really not as obvious as you think it is.

I’ve had a bloke follow me the length of a train before. Had to arrange to be met by friends when the train pulled in.

It’s a lot more common than you might thing. Psychotherapy, as per your suggestion, won’t help because this isn’t irrational. Women are taking precautions against things that happen, a lot.

If you sit next to us when you don’t need to, we’re probably going to assume you are a weirdo and react accordingly. If you don’t like that, don’t do it.

 

[GoatSarah]

Ask for Angela is a great idea. What does that have to do with sitting next to people on public transport?

Exactly the same thing it does in a public house.

 

[westv]

If you're a guy, don't sit next to a strange woman.

If I see any women that look a bit strange I would most certainly avoid them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s really not as obvious as you think it is.

I’ve had a bloke follow me the length of a train before. Had to arrange to be met by friends when the train pulled in.

It’s a lot more common than you might thing. Psychotherapy, as per your suggestion, won’t help because this isn’t irrational. Women are taking precautions against things that happen, a lot.

If you sit next to us when you don’t need to, we’re probably going to assume you are a weirdo and react accordingly. If you don’t like that, don’t do it.

Can I suggest, then, that the best thing for you to do once the train starts to get busy is to sit next to another woman yourself? Problem solved.

You can think what you like, of course. I think your posts are sexist (edited, as I don't know you as a person, just your posts) - not because of your fear, but because of how you are tarring all men with the same brush. And you're also attempting to speak for other women by saying "we", which I think you should stop doing. How about letting them speak for themselves?

 

[Darandio]

If you sit next to us when you don’t need to, we’re probably going to assume you are a weirdo and react accordingly. If you don’t like that, don’t do it.

Let us picture a scene I see nearly every morning, a fairly busy train (not packed) with no tables. I board the train and every bay in the carriage has at least someone in it and a dozen empty seats remain. I just want to sit down and I have zero interest whether these seats are alongside a man or woman or whatever but let's work on half and say there are 6 men and 6 women that I can end up next to. But because I choose to sit next to you i'm flagged as a weirdo because there were six other seats I should have chosen?

 

[FGW_DID]

I’ve had a bloke follow me the length of a train before. Had to arrange to be met by friends when the train pulled in.

Did this chap do / say anything else that made you feel you had to call your friends or did he literally just follow down the train?