Goldfish62
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- 14 Feb 2010
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Yes, 50% of the bus fleet has been brand new within the last couple of years.First Kernow (Cornwall) is one of the good ops along with loads of new buses
Yes, 50% of the bus fleet has been brand new within the last couple of years.First Kernow (Cornwall) is one of the good ops along with loads of new buses
read on another thread that Oldham Could go under west Yorkshire control but dout that would happenBolton is next in line in the First Manchester sale, Oldham deal may be off at least for time being.
whoops forgot about those 349921-23 which have recently been refurbished
Transdev by any chance? Wonder why Oldham been put off? Surly that has to be done within 6 weeks?
Just returning to my Essex speculation. Becalmed (or stuffed, as I put it) about sums it up. So I too suspect nothing will happen, yet.
The irony is that the Essex OpCo has, I suspect, two of the best local independents in the Country who could teach them a thing or two about running buses: Ensign and Stephensons of Essex, if they were interested in learning.
Go Ahead seem to have problems in making anything work in East Anglia, so the worry is we might move from one shambles to another, though if their mutual Manchester PR is to be believed they both have this "good relationship". And they seem to have the resources (including management?) if First don't.
I really can't see what the First OpCo has to be competitive for resources within First, so how long can it keep becalmed, and afloat? As a meal it looks indigestible though. There is no Council money tree to help. They have to make do with the begging bowl to the property industry, on which First make a decent stab; but it's how well you use it, and I'm not sure they've really got the hang of that one yet.
We've waited approaching a decade (EDIT in Essex, at least) for First to get their act together. So how long do we have to give them?
They'd like it to be done in FY2018/9 but there is no need to have it done in 6 weeks.
...
Now, First Essex is one of the OpCos that I don't know well. Looking from a distance, it seems becalmed. Can't speak on areas like service delivery etc but in terms of new vehicles, marketing, etc, it looks like not much is going on, even in comparison to FEC. Whilst they have had new fleet in 2014-6, they are another of those OpCos that will have to rely on cascades given the constraints on new vehicles. Hence, they are are managing on a diet of middling cascades from Scotland and West of England and there's a lot of elderly Darts to get rid of. The odd thing is that FEC seem to be getting things right and so why the lessons can't be transferred south of Dedham, who knows?
Not certain if First and Go Ahead have a great relationship, judging by what's going on in Southampton at the moment, or indeed the job that First have done on them in Norfolk/Suffolk. More that First wanting to sell Manchester suits them, and Go Ahead have a strategic aim to grow and so things just align!
Why isn't York on the list for the same reason?
* Worcester - no issues.
* Potteries - Its starting to make money and isn't Isolated
* Leicester - First does not control 100% of the company.
* Slough - it's the only one that could make sense as First has rolled back so much.
Just a reminder that First have said that *any* operating unit is available for sale. It's not their reluctance to sell, it's the lack of buyers.
This bears repeating.
There's a lot of assumption on this thread that First will only sell the unprofitable bits of the business... but in order to sell there has to be a buyer... and if they want to raise money to pay off their debts then they need to raise some proper money then they aren't going to raise that by selling loss making/marginal operations - given how other operators in the UK are retrenching or stagnating you might struggle to even sell a reasonably profitable operation because who has the money to buy something as big as a depot with 100+ buses?
I don't know that being "remote" is as big of an issue as some people make out though - First seem to like moving buses from Bristol to Glasgow (and similar long distance swaps) but then again National Express seem to cope with a depot in Dundee - it's not like "Risk" where you try to collect all of the adjacent territories - GoAhead seem happy to pick up a depot in Manchester far from their other operations (just like their recent purchase in East Yorkshire) - Transdev seem okay about their share of the Nottingham operation not being directly linked to the North Yorkshire/ Lancashire corridor that most of their routes are based in - West Cost Motors have stretched all the way to north east England with a huge gap in between the Borders Buses routes into Edinburgh and the Glasgow Citybus services in (erm) Glasgow. I think people are over-egging things a bit.
More to the point, look at the first few pages of this thread - people were making a number of suggestions that were rather wide of the mark (with hindsight) - I wouldn't have guessed that First would be keeping Stirling/ Cornwall whilst selling Manchester - they are increasing their presence in some parts of Rotherham whilst scaling back in some big cities - it's not a game I'd wager any money on!
Stagecoach East too are embroiled in a sort of falling out with the new Cambridge and Peterborough Regional Mayor (who himself seems to need to embark on a steep learning curve, which might lead him anywhere), and I thought perhaps the prospect of a move into Essex could usefully hedge their bets, as Stagecoach seem to have this reputation for being able to sort anything out. (And maybe a sort of filling in the sandwich between their West Anglia and East London ops). I thought too they said something when they sold their American ops about concentrating on opportunities in British bus?
The big one with selling Manchester is obviously the potential risk of franchising, I assume this is why buyers are only prepared to risk buying one depot each. The other big one with any buying any First operation even if they are the 'crown jewels' are pension deficits. The other stumbling block is there may well be plenty of potential buyers, but there may be a big gap between buyers valuations/offers and what First want/need. Hence the lack of assett sales to date.
It's a buyers market for acquistions & used vehicles, as everyone wants Euro 6.
Agree about Southampton, Colchester has an Arriva operation, so maybe?Of course would the CMA allow First to sell off Southampton or Colchester to Go-ahead? Would it allow Potteroes to be sold off to D&G? Stirling and Falkirk to Stagecoach etc
The people who would want to buy might not be allowed.
You mention Pension Deficits, surely First retain the 'pension legacy' liabilities, staff who are 'TUPeD across to the new owner start afresh with the new owners pension scheme and First are responsible for paying staffs historical pension benefits earned up to the date of sale.
I can't imagine any purchasing company would want to take on past Pension liabilities.
Of course would the CMA allow First to sell off Southampton or Colchester to Go-ahead? Would it allow Potteroes to be sold off to D&G? Stirling and Falkirk to Stagecoach etc
The people who would want to buy might not be allowed.
You mention Pension Deficits, surely First retain the 'pension legacy' liabilities, staff who are 'TUPeD across to the new owner start afresh with the new owners pension scheme and First are responsible for paying staffs historical pension benefits earned up to the date of sale.
I can't imagine any purchasing company would want to take on past Pension liabilities.
The deficit problem is with the defined benefit schemes (which have been closed anyway). I presume current employees now have some sort of defined contribution scheme, which could possibly be transferred across to the new employer.
Stagecoach East have their own, fairly major problems to work through - and I don't mean with the Regional Mayor. Don't expect them to take on any more pain for the forseeable.
They're currently in a hole that would have attracted a lot of attention on here if it was First in the same position...
Right here goes (note: I’m not a pensions or HR expert)
TUPE covers existing Terms and Conditions of Employment so that’s areas such as pay and bonuses, notice periods, enhanced redundancy etc. It does not cover pensions so when transfer comes, the individuals’ First scheme stops and the liability crystalises. They then get begin a pension with the new employer. Even Defined Contribution (DC) schemes vary so First may be putting in 5% whereas someone else’s scheme might have been at the 3% minimum - a new employer will want their own scheme on that basis and for ease of administration.
For the employer(s), there is no set rule for what happens with pension liabilities. In this case, it would seem that the pension fund does not generate sufficient funds (deficit) to cover the liability and this probably refers to the old defined benefit (DB) scheme where you have to pay out a sum irrespective of the health of the fund. In that case, whoever has accepted responsibility will have to make up the shortfall.
Naturally, First would like a clean break. Any buyer doesn’t want to buy a firm for a perceived bargain and then have to continually pay extra to cover the deficit. In some instances, the seller may pay a lump sum (dowry) to cover the likely deficit to the buyer in order to transfer future obligations (and risk) to the purchaser.
Often, how and where the pensions liability sits is driven by the relative position of strength in negotiations. In these instances, you might feel that First just want to offload.... but at whatever price? No point in selling off assets, taking a balance sheet hit AND still losing money every day because you’re still liable for the pensions. Also, the buyers aren’t just doing this on a whim - they are looking to grow their business (they want to buy) and likewise don’t want to buy “cheap” and discover it’s anything but! Hence the negotiations.
Sorry if that’s not a concise as it could be
In regards with York, I recall the whole operation is/was registered as First West Yorkshire & York Ltd which is based on Donisthorpe Street in Leeds. The fleet in York (the last time I checked) had Donisthorpe Street on the legals which also suggests York is connected to the WY ops.
Of course would the CMA allow First to sell off Southampton or Colchester to Go-ahead?
The big one with selling Manchester is obviously the potential risk of franchising, I assume this is why buyers are only prepared to risk buying one depot each.
Surely there must be plans to introduce some form of joint ticketing as part of Onebus, no? Joint ticketing exists in various areas, often with Go Ahead and Stagecoach, so hopefully something will be worked out.I think Go Ahead must be betting on franchising. Queens Road looks perfectly placed for any routes into the city centre. Without it, what have they bought? An incomplete set of radial routes, many with competition from Stagecoach or whatever happens to the other First depots, shorn of the rest of the network First had, and First couldn't make it work.
If indeed Oldham doesn't sell it might be the case that no one sees it as a viable proposition as a single depot, so franchising is the only hope to get another new entrant interested. The case for franchising has just got stronger anyway - passengers will be the losers from this sale and fragmentation of services, Stagecoach I see as the only potential winners without regulation.
Surely there must be plans to introduce some form of joint ticketing as part of Onebus, no? Joint ticketing exists in various areas, often with Go Ahead and Stagecoach, so hopefully something will be worked out.
I thought that joint tickets would exist! Are they much more expensive than normal tickets, as if not then passengers won't lose out so badly except for along Rochdale Road where there will be 3 companies operating frequent services into the city - Go Ahead on the 17 and 18, Stagecoach on the 56/156, 112/113 and 118 and First on the 81/81A and 163. Stagecoach could see more people using their service down here as they will run more buses.I'd imagine they would accept the current System One/Get Me There tickets straight off the bat...
I thought that joint tickets would exist! Are they much more expensive than normal tickets
Go Ahead have said that they won't expand further in Manchester for the time being, but then again last week First said they weren't going to sell immediately!Oldham depot, I dont know why but I think we might see a split between Go Ahead and Trasndev for that place.
Stagecoach East have their own, fairly major problems to work through - and I don't mean with the Regional Mayor. Don't expect them to take on any more pain for the forseeable.
They're currently in a hole that would have attracted a lot of attention on here if it was First in the same position...