Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[Ianno87]

But let's not say "teachers for education, doctors for medicine, non-specific professionals for the railway.". They are not equal.

Plenty of rail industry professionals responsible for future planning do in fact have direct understanding and experience of front line operation and day to day capacity issues, having been there themselves. In the same way a teacher may progress to being a headteacher with less classroom time (but more policy influence) than the front line.

i think you may be the one with the straw man argument now.

 

[EM2]

Strawman. It's not drivers and guards wanting HS2, it's politicians and consultants.

It's almost everyone in the rail industry.

 

[Sceptre]

All of the major rail unions are fully in favour of HS2 (modulo general concerns regarding construction blacklisting and franchising), and given the rail industry is heavily unionised, I think they can be taken as representative of the views of the railway workers…

 

[The Ham]

Policy is very different from whether or not to spend £50bn+ on one project, and doctors, soldiers and teachers aren’t company directors or consultants needing workflow

It's one project which lasts for about 15 years, being built in 3 stages. However you have to remember that CP6 NR's budget is £48bn (£35bn coming from the DfT), for 5 years.

 

[6Gman]

Strawman. It's not drivers and guards wanting HS2, it's politicians and consultants.

But it's not politicians and consultants expressing their views on here. It's people with practical experience of railway planning.

 

[Sceptre]

Another interesting thing is that although people complain constantly that the HS2 cost keeps "spiralling out of control", it hasn't actually received a real-terms increase in its budget since McLoughlin announced the "£42.6bn in 2011 terms" budget in 2013; £7.5bn is adding the rolling stock cost to the price tag, and £6.5bn is due to inflation.

I dread the inflation adjustment later this year causing another lot of antis to screech about the price rising again.

 

[The Ham]

Strawman. It's not drivers and guards wanting HS2, it's politicians and consultants.

OK, you want hard facts
View media item 3337What do we do to cater for those growth figures?

Bearing in mind HS2 phase 1 upon opening was expecting 52% growth. Those regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1 (North West, West Midlands and Scotland) have all exceeded that growth prediction and are on the way to exceeding the growth predictions made for Phase 2 opening.

Everyone opposed to HS2 skirts the issue or goes quite when presented with these figures. Maybe those in support should highlight these numbers to their MP.

The numbers are taken from here:
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/4277ce6b-bdf3-4562-a6b1-eb036b57f065

 

[PR1Berske]

Another interesting thing is that although people complain constantly that the HS2 cost keeps "spiralling out of control", it hasn't actually received a real-terms increase in its budget since McLoughlin announced the "£42.6bn in 2011 terms" budget in 2013; £7.5bn is adding the rolling stock cost to the price tag, and £6.5bn is due to inflation.

I dread the inflation adjustment later this year causing another lot of antis to screech about the price rising again.

What is the maximum point at which you, personally, would say, "the cost is now too much"?

 

[PR1Berske]

What do we do to cater for those growth figures?

Look at why specific trains are crowded, and either retime them or add extra carriages. Reroute services to underused destinations. Reexamine ticket prices to see if a fairer pricing regime could spread passengers over a wider set of services.

Invest where it matters. Expand the WCML at its pinch points, rather than build a new railway with no intermediate stations. Use money to focus on regional hotspots.

Consider taking people *away* from the railway where appropriate. Invest in high speed BroadBand, rebalance the economy to reduce strain on commuter railways.

Think differently.

 

[mmh]

But it's not politicians and consultants expressing their views on here. It's people with practical experience of railway planning.

But that's nonsense, there will be accountants, local politicians, civil servants and engineers doing that on here.

 

[Ianno87]

Look at why specific trains are crowded, and either retime them or add extra carriages.

Given that the busiest WCML services alreasy run with 11 car Pendolinos or 12 car 350s, this has been done. I don't know how you 'retime' on a railway that is full to planning capacity?

Invest where it matters. Expand the WCML at its pinch points, rather than build a new railway with no intermediate stations. Use money to focus on regional hotspots.

The pinchpoint on the WCML is the Fast Lines south of Rugby, which are full to planning capacity.

Now, if only there was some scheme to add a new pair of tracks from somewhere north of Rugby into Euston to take non-stopping services (that don't need to be there) off the existing WCML to free up space for other stuff...

Oh, wait...

Think differently.

At least you haven't said Smart Timetabling.

 

[Sceptre]

Ah yes, high speed broadband will surely be the panacea to rising passenger numbers, as will smart railways on the blockchain duck cloud.

I thought the idea that videoconferencing obviates the need for infrastructure spending went the way of bionic duckweed, and for the same reasons.

 

[PR1Berske]

Given that the busiest WCML services alreasy run with 11 car Pendolinos or 12 car 350s, this has been done. I don't know how you 'retime' on a railway that is full to planning capacity?



The pinchpoint on the WCML is the Fast Lines south of Rugby, which are full to planning capacity.

Now, if only there was some scheme to add a new pair of tracks from somewhere north of Rugby into Euston to take non-stopping services (that don't need to be there) off the existing WCML to free up space for other stuff...

Oh, wait...



At least you haven't said Smart Timetabling.

So once again, I must accept the case for HS2, yet you rip to shreds any alternative suggestion.

 

[Esker-pades]

So once again, I must accept the case for HS2, yet you rip to shreds any alternative suggestion.

Possibly because the alternative suggestions ("smart timetabling", "think differently") don't actually mean anything.

 

[PR1Berske]

Possibly because the alternative suggestions ("smart timetabling", "think differently") don't actually mean anything.

I've explained them over and over again, people don't seem to listen.

 

[EM2]

Look at why specific trains are crowded, and either retime them or add extra carriages.

And where there is no capacity to retime, or physical space to extend stations for longer trains?

Reroute services to underused destinations.

So the destinations that are already busy will get fewer services?

Reexamine ticket prices to see if a fairer pricing regime could spread passengers over a wider set of services.

‘Fairer’ pricing will increase demand

Invest where it matters. Expand the WCML at its pinch points, rather than build a new railway with no intermediate stations. Use money to focus on regional hotspots.

You cannot get the same uplift in capacity that HS2 can deliver, not for the same money and carried out over the same length of time.

 

[EM2]

So once again, I must accept the case for HS2, yet you rip to shreds any alternative suggestion.

Because they will not work.

 

[EM2]

I've explained them over and over again, people don't seem to listen.

There is no substance to what you suggest, they’re just vague concepts. And yes, I know that you’re an NHS office worker, but some of us aren’t, we’re dealing with these issues day in and day out. We know what’s needed.

 

[PR1Berske]

There is no substance to what you suggest, they’re just vague concepts. And yes, I know that you’re an NHS office worker, but some of us aren’t, we’re dealing with these issues day in and day out. We know what’s needed.

I know what's needed.

Unlike the politicians and businessmen who support HS2, I use the railways. And I see that the North needs investment *now*, something HS2 does not provide. Waiting for the line to reach Birmingham does not help the North.

When HS2 is cancelled, as it will, I'll be on this thread with a spring in my step and song in my heart. I can only imagine how you will feel when your project is canned.

 

[Esker-pades]

I've explained them over and over again, people don't seem to listen.

You have explained them over and over again, they still don't provide actual solutions. I've read, and re-read your comments and simply do not see how those phrases actually mean anything. Given that every other user who has questioned you also seems at a loss, I am less able to accept that it is my fault.

exploring how existing services could be retimed

In what way? Faster, slower, depart at different times? How would that increase capacity (rather than just move existing capacity around so that Manchester services depart at XX:03, XX:23 and XX:43 rather than XX:00, XX:20 and XX:40).

...whether existing timetables could be reworked to reflect passenger numbers over a certain period...

See, that means reducing the number of trains at off-peak (thus creating more capacity) but increasing the number at peak times (where the line is already at maximum capacity).

Having very fixed and rigid timetables is at the heart is the so called capacity problems.

change from fixed, rigid timetables to using more flexibility

Be more flexible with timetables

I still can't find where this term has been defined.

 

[Esker-pades]

I know what's needed.

Unlike the politicians and businessmen who support HS2, I use the railways.

What, and nobody else on this thread does?

And I see that the North needs investment *now*, something HS2 does not provide. Waiting for the line to reach Birmingham does not help the North.

Then Manchester and Leeds. Capacity freeing up, because one can replace intercity paths with other trains. (Yes, we've gone all the way round the circle again.)
For the Northern Powerhouse to properly work (as has been stated by other users who have proper railway knowledge), it requires HS2 as well.

When HS2 is cancelled, as it will, I'll be on this thread with a spring in my step and song in my heart. I can only imagine how you will feel when your project is canned.

Brilliant. Football supporter mentality. That's what the internet needs more of.

 

[6Gman]

Look at why specific trains are crowded, and either retime them or add extra carriages.

Think differently.

How would retiming crowded trains help? If the 1906 is crowded, what departure time would address the issue?

If a train is formed of an 11-car Pendolino how would you "add extra carriages"?

 

[6Gman]

I know what's needed.

Unlike the politicians and businessmen who support HS2, I use the railways. And I see that the North needs investment *now*, something HS2 does not provide. Waiting for the line to reach Birmingham does not help the North.

When HS2 is cancelled, as it will, I'll be on this thread with a spring in my step and song in my heart. I can only imagine how you will feel when your project is canned.

Can't speak for @EM2 - I'm not hugely fussed either way - but my journeys to and from London are likely to become ever more crowded. Which I don't fancy.

And an extra hour on a day trip to London would be nice.

And having more options for travel to intermediate destinations (e.g. Nuneaton) would be useful.

 

[JamesT]

Not that it would be a long term solution, but how much extra capacity would you get from replacing the Class 350s with something like a full length Class 700? I assume there would be a fair amount of infrastructure work required in order to allow all the LNWR stations to cope with full length trains?

 

[6Gman]

I know what's needed.

Unlike the politicians and businessmen who support HS2, I use the railways.

Just out of interest, how many journeys on the WCML south of Rugby did you make in 2018? Just to give us an idea of how familiar you are with it ...

 

[PR1Berske]

Just out of interest, how many journeys on the WCML south of Rugby did you make in 2018? Just to give us an idea of how familiar you are with it ...

What matters is the railways I use up here, in the North, and I use them weekly. What I see up here is the need for investment.

Had I typed "... the railways up here", it would have made my point more clearly.

 

[6Gman]

Not that it would be a long term solution, but how much extra capacity would you get from replacing the Class 350s with something like a full length Class 700? I assume there would be a fair amount of infrastructure work required in order to allow all the LNWR stations to cope with full length trains?

Assuming the same seating density it appears to be not much more than 5-6% which would be a distinctly short-term measure.

 

[6Gman]

What matters is the railways I use up here, in the North, and I use them weekly. What I see up here is the need for investment.

Had I typed "... the railways up here", it would have made my point more clearly.

Ah, "me, me, me" ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "the North" over the past few years seen:

350/4s
Electrification
Ordsall Chord
Refurbished 319s
Rebuilding of Lime Street. And Manchester Victoria.

And isn't it about to see:

Class 195s
Class 331s
Complete replacement of the Merseyrail fleet

All of which will arrive long, long before HS2 ...

 

[Esker-pades]

Ah, "me, me, me" ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "the North" over the past few years seen:

350/4s
Electrification
Ordsall Chord
Refurbished 319s
Rebuilding of Lime Street. And Manchester Victoria.

And isn't it about to see:

Class 195s
Class 331s
Complete replacement of the Merseyrail fleet

All of which will arrive long, long before HS2 ...

TransPennine's new stock.

 

[tomuk]

What matters is the railways I use up here, in the North, and I use them weekly. What I see up here is the need for investment.

You are getting investment:

Liverpool - Manchester Chat Moss Electrification
Liverpool - Wigan Electrification
Lime Street Station Rebuild/Re-signalling
Ordsall Chord
Manchester - Bolton Electrification
Blackpool Electrification
Srapping of Pacers by Cascaded Stock - 150s, 156s, 158s, 170s, 319s
Northern New 195 DMUs
Northern New 331 EMUs
TPE New 802 BiModes
TPE New Mk5 stock
TPE New 397 EMUs
LNER New 800 Bimodes

Proposed/Future Enhancements
Trans Pennine Improvement/Electrification
Piccadilly Extra Platforms
HS3/Northern Powerhouse Rail

Plus you will benefit from HS2, journey times from Preston to London will improve by at least 30 mins when phase 1 to Birmingham opens increasing to at least an hour when phase 2 opens. Plus you get new stock to replace/complement the Pendolinos.

what have the Romans ever done for us?