Rules about reserved seats

[SirAlf]

Three of us travelled on the Shrewsbury – Wrexham service on Saturday morning with reserved seats. But when we got on board someone was sat in our seats and there wasn't an electronic display or a card saying our seats were reserved. We politely asked them to move, at first they refused but moved with obvious bad grace when other people on the train chipped in and told them they'd got to

They then complained to the guard who came to us and waffled about seat reservations not being enforceable because they weren't paid for. Didn't make much sense to me because as far as I know no seat reservations on any trains are paid for. And when I asked him whether we were in the right he waffled a bit more and didn't answer.

If it had been me on my own I'd probably have just sat elsewhere but three of us travelling together wanted to sit together and there wasn't another table that we could sit at.

So I am curious, who was in the right? Us for asking the other people to move or them for refusing? Not a big deal but I just wondered...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Convention is that if reservations are unmarked they do not apply, I'm afraid. Though some TOCs (typically those with larger trains that mean there can be an unreserved coach) have a different policy that they do, because the presence of the unreserved coach can avoid games of musical chairs.

I've long thought trains should carry signs making the policy on this clear.

 

[Journeyman]

ScotRail make announcements if for whatever reasons reservations are not available - it's usually down to a late incoming service, resulting in there being insufficient time for ticketing the seats. Poor form if this announcement wasn't made, but if the seats aren't ticketed and/or the electronic system isn't working, it's impossible to enforce reservations and they'll be suspended. It's annoying, but I don't think there's much that can be done under the circumstances. All TOCs will refund you if you have to stand as a result of a reservation not being honoured.

 

[Intermodal]

All TOCs will refund you if you have to stand as a result of a reservation not being honoured.

Source?

 

[gordonthemoron]

VTWC have the entertaining experience of reservations appearing and disappearing at random

 

[Journeyman]

Source?

On the relevant TOC's websites. I'm not going to dig them all out for you, but I just found it on LNER's FAQs, and I'm pretty sure it's offered more or less universally where reservations are possible.

 

[Intermodal]

On the relevant TOC's websites. I'm not going to dig them all out for you, but I just found it on LNER's FAQs, and I'm pretty sure it's offered more or less universally where reservations are possible.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I just don't believe it to be true that all TOCs operate this policy.

 

[Journeyman]

Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I just don't believe it to be true that all TOCs operate this policy.

Well, relevant to this discussion, TfW offer compensation on a sliding scale based on how long you have to stand for, which is admittedly a bit meaner, but they do still compensate you.

 

[WelshBluebird]

From the viewpoint of those passengers you moved, I'd be pretty annoyed if I was one of them.
If there was no sign or notice that those seats were reserved - how on earth were they supposed to know? They could well have been sat in those seats for hours beforehand with no warning they were about to be kicked out. That is why reservations are generally disregarding if there has been a fault with the printer or screens showing the reservations. It just causes chaos! Though I do agree in such circumstances there should be announcements from the train crew specifically pointing this out at each station.

 

[Journeyman]

From the viewpoint of those passengers you moved, I'd be pretty annoyed if I was one of them.
If there was no sign or notice that those seats were reserved - how on earth were they supposed to know? They could well have been sat in those seats for hours beforehand with no warning they were about to be kicked out. That is why reservations are generally disregarding if there has been a fault with the printer or screens showing the reservations. It just causes chaos! Though I do agree in such circumstances there should be announcements from the train crew specifically pointing this out at each station.

Absolutely agree - if reservations aren't correctly displayed, it's far too complicated to expect people to know where they can and can't sit, and there's no way it can all be enforced. If I'd come across that situation, I'd have just looked for another seat, and if I couldn't find one, I'd take it up with the conductor - it's the TOC's fault, and not the fault of the people perfectly reasonably already sat down.

It's an entirely different matter if the seats are clearly reserved, but even then I'd just quietly sit somewhere else if a suitable seat is available. Once again, it's a matter for the conductor, not me. I can't be bothered arguing with other passengers, all it would do is put me on edge for the whole journey.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

As others have said, typically reservations no longer apply if the train company hasn't honoured them, i.e. put out tickets or updated the electronic display.

The least troublesome approach is to just to assume all seats are unreserved in this situation. Otherwise, the individuals in your previously reserved seats would have no way of knowing if the seats they then moved into had also been reserved prior - one could very easily end up playing musical chairs at every stop through no fault of one's own.

If it happens to me I usually tell people that their umbrage is with the train company, not the individual in the seat, and direct them towards the guard. If it's a person with an obvious need for that particular seat it's probably good courtesy to yield it though; although most often it's an infrequent business passenger who's walked past several empty seats in order to claim their seat.

 

[Mag_seven]

they then complained to the guard who came to us and waffled about seat reservations not being enforceable because they weren't paid for.

The fact that reservations are "free" is neither here nor there in this case. The reservations were not placed so there were none, free or otherwise.

 

[bramling]

Three of us travelled on the Shrewsbury – Wrexham service on Saturday morning with reserved seats. But when we got on board someone was sat in our seats and there wasn't an electronic display or a card saying our seats were reserved. We politely asked them to move, at first they refused but moved with obvious bad grace when other people on the train chipped in and told them they'd got to

They then complained to the guard who came to us and waffled about seat reservations not being enforceable because they weren't paid for. Didn't make much sense to me because as far as I know no seat reservations on any trains are paid for. And when I asked him whether we were in the right he waffled a bit more and didn't answer.

If it had been me on my own I'd probably have just sat elsewhere but three of us travelling together wanted to sit together and there wasn't another table that we could sit at.

So I am curious, who was in the right? Us for asking the other people to move or them for refusing? Not a big deal but I just wondered...

So there was nothing to indicate the seats were reserved, but you turfed the people out of the seats. Don’t you think that’s a little unreasonable, especially just so that you could sit together?

 

[causton]

So there was nothing to indicate the seats were reserved, but you turfed the people out of the seats. Don’t you think that’s a little unreasonable, especially just so that you could sit together?

So they took the time to make a seat reservation, but they couldn't sit down because people who hadn't reserved were already there? That sounds a little bit unreasonable to be honest!

Devil's advocate actually, as said above it really depends on the service but there should be clear guidance from the TOCs either on their website/Passenger Charter or through announcements on each affected service.

 

[furlong]

The latest default position in the Conditions of Travel is merely:

3.3. Unless you have made a reservation please note that your Ticket does not automatically entitle you to a seat, and at busy times you may have to stand. You will not be entitled to any refund in these cases unless you hold a first class Ticket and no first class seats were available on a train service where the timetable indicated that first class seats would be provided.

30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

But many individual TOCs continue to offer a variety of greater rights in their Passengers' Charters.
For TfW you have:

Compensation for seat reservations not being honoured

Seat reservations are available on many of our longer- distance services, free of charge. If, for any reason, we cannot honour your seat reservation please speak to the Conductor onboard as they will try to find you another seat on the train. If this is not possible and you have to stand for more than 15 minutes of the journey, please ask the Conductor to endorse your ticket.

You may send your endorsed ticket and details of your journey to our Customer Relations department as we will compensate you to the value of 5% of a single ticket or relevant portion of a return ticket for every 15 minutes that you have stand, up to a maximum of the total cost of your journey ticket. You will also need to tell us how you would like us to pay your compensation. Please see the section “How will my compensation be paid?” for the options available. The above does not affect any legal rights or remedies you would otherwise have under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

[bramling]

So they took the time to make a seat reservation, but they couldn't sit down because people who hadn't reserved were already there? That sounds a little bit unreasonable to be honest!

Devil's advocate actually, as said above it really depends on the service but there should be clear guidance from the TOCs either on their website/Passenger Charter or through announcements on each affected service.

To me it’s pretty clear - if there’s no labels out or the electronic system isn’t working then it’s not reasonable to expect people to be telepathic. I suspect many pull a fast one in that situation - knowing full well there’s no applicable reservations but hoping others will move anyway.

 

[Master29]

Pretty poor show on behalf of any TOC. The guard saying they weren`t paid for is lamentable if true.

 

[Matt_pool]

A couple of years ago a friend and I had reservations on a TPE service from York to Liverpool. I think that as we were boarding the train at York an announcement was made that reservations had been cancelled and you could sit where you want. The reservation cards hadn't been put out.

So we sat at the nearest table, mainly because it had a socket and I wanted to charge my phone.

Along came two guys who said we were sitting in their seats. I tried to explain that reservations were no longer applicable and that they were free to sit at the adjacent table which was currently unoccupied.

Instead of just sitting down one of the guys proceeded to throw his toys out of his pram and went into an incoherent rant about how we were sat in his seats.

I had to explain half a dozen times that the guard announced reservations had been cancelled and he could sit where he wanted, which in this case was still at a table but on the other side of the aisle.

He carried on arguing with me all the way to Leeds!

Back to the OP, I have travelled on TfW (and under their previous guise as Arriva Trains Wales) a few dozen times over the years and, even when I have had a reservation, they have never had the reservation card on the seat. Occasionally, and if you are lucky, the conductor will announce once in a blue moon that it's a free for all and you can sit where you want, otherwise you just have to guess!

 

[SirAlf]

So there was nothing to indicate the seats were reserved, but you turfed the people out of the seats. Don’t you think that’s a little unreasonable, especially just so that you could sit together?

OP here, lets be clear, I did NOT turf them out of their seats. I politely said that we had reservations for those seats and offered to call the guard, but they got up and moved when other people in the carriage told them they'd got to. At no point was anybody turfed anywhere, certainly not by me

All I asked on this forum was what the official situation was so that I'll know in the future, I had no idea who was in the right and the guard seemed to be waffling, which made me think he didn't know either

 

[Timrud]

Reservations were not valid for you and its bad form to make people move

 

[yorkie]

Three of us travelled on the Shrewsbury – Wrexham service on Saturday morning with reserved seats. But when we got on board someone was sat in our seats and there wasn't an electronic display or a card saying our seats were reserved. We politely asked them to move

As there were no reservations, you had no right to ask them to move.

They then complained to the guard who came to us and waffled about seat reservations not being enforceable because they weren't paid for. Didn't make much sense to me because as far as I know no seat reservations on any trains are paid for. And when I asked him whether we were in the right he waffled a bit more and didn't answer.

You were in the wrong.

If it had been me on my own I'd probably have just sat elsewhere but three of us travelling together wanted to sit together and there wasn't another table that we could sit at.

Then see the Guard and explain the situation. If done politely, the Guard might offer to help if they are in a position to do so. You could write to the company about your experience of there being no reservations, though you aren't entitled to any compensation, you may get a goodwill gesture.

So I am curious, who was in the right? Us for asking the other people to move or them for refusing? Not a big deal but I just wondered...

Definitely them!

OP here, lets be clear, I did NOT turf them out of their seats. I politely said that we had reservations for those seats and offered to call the guard, but they got up and moved when other people in the carriage told them they'd got to. At no point was anybody turfed anywhere, certainly not by me

I am surprised others said this, but they were wrong. It's almost universally accepted that invisible reservations are not enforceable and almost all TOCs have this policy, so the Guard was correct.

All I asked on this forum was what the official situation was so that I'll know in the future, I had no idea who was in the right and the guard seemed to be waffling, which made me think he didn't know either

No problem. As for the Guard waffling.. well, he did know and was correct, but the communication was perhaps just not clear. Some Guards are much better than others at communicating clearly to customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am surprised others said this, but they were wrong. It's almost universally accepted that invisible reservations are not enforceable and almost all TOCs have this policy, so the Guard was correct.

As a side note, VTWC and XC both appear to have (and announce) a policy that they always apply whether marked or not. Most if not all other TOCs have the old BR policy that if not placed they do not apply.

It is however understandable that non-frequent travellers might feel aggrieved as this policy is not what universally applies on other modes of transport where seats may be reserved.

Either way, this all very much backs up my view that such arguments would be avoided by a clear notice in each coach that the aggrieved can point to, particularly as people might miss an announcement.

 

[yorkie]

As a side note, VTWC and XC both appear to have (and announce) a policy that they always apply whether marked or not. Most if not all other TOCs have the old BR policy that if not placed they do not apply.

Whatever policy they have, people cannot be required to move, and can simply refuse. So their policy creates conflict and puts their staff in an impossible situation. But they're very much in the minority.

It is however understandable that non-frequent travellers might feel aggrieved as this policy is not what universally applies on other modes of transport where seats may be reserved.

GB trains allow people to occupy seats without reservations. Comparisons with modes of transport that require reservations are null & void and not relevant.

Either way, this all very much backs up my view that such arguments would be avoided by a clear notice in each coach that the aggrieved can point to, particularly as people might miss an announcement.

Yes it should be made clearer that if seat reservations are not being displayed, they do not apply. This is common sense of course but it should be made clearer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GB trains allow people to occupy seats without reservations. Comparisons with modes of transport that require reservations are null & void and not relevant.

They are and they aren't. It's understandable that people might think that long-distance trains require reservations even if they don't in the UK - planes do, coaches sort-of do and trains in many other countries do.

To offer the best customer service, you have to understand what your customers might be wrongly thinking and why as well as their correct views/motivations.

Yes it should be made clearer that if seat reservations are not being displayed, they do not apply. This is common sense of course but it should be made clearer.

Whatever the policy, it wouldn't be hard to put a sticker on the sidewall every few window bays (it'd give people stuck against a sidewall with no window something to read ) explaining what it is.

 

[bramling]

OP here, lets be clear, I did NOT turf them out of their seats. I politely said that we had reservations for those seats and offered to call the guard, but they got up and moved when other people in the carriage told them they'd got to. At no point was anybody turfed anywhere, certainly not by me

But you effectively did, by creating a scene which evidently made them sufficiently uncomfortable that they decided to move. Notwithstanding whether this was a genuine mistake on your part or not, you had no right to do this.

 

[gtis]

What happens if someone removes the seat reserved tickets

 

[VT 390]

I travelled with Arriva trains wales last year from Church Stretton to Neath and I had a booked seat and most of the seats in the carriage had reservation labels in them but the seat I had reserved did not so I spoke to the guard on the train and he said that the person sat in the seat would have to move as I had reserved it and all the other seats that should be reserved were reserved. Later on in the journey when it got a bit quieter I noticed that the reservation label from the seat I had reserved was on the floor on the other side of the carriage, so either someone removed it from the seat or it fell out which seams unlikely especially as the person who was sat in the seat previously was not at all happy about moving.

 

[radamfi]

Has anyone bribed a fellow passenger into giving up their seat? How much would you offer?

 

[_toommm_]

What happens if someone removes the seat reserved tickets

There is a section in the NRCoT on this IIRC, but I don't have it to hand at the moment. Removing/moving a reservation is against the NRCoT, again, IIRC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens if someone removes the seat reserved tickets

They've committed a Byelaw offence which can technically see them prosecuted and fined, £50 was it?

The guard will know whether they were placed or not and will I'm sure be able to advise. (There aren't any DOO trains with reservations, are there?)