Rules about reserved seats

[Mitchell Hurd]

I travel around 70k miles a year by rail with work, so here are my tips to avoid the aggravation of reservations chat. I'm not saying that all of this is necessarily in the best interests of the majority of other passengers, it just keeps me sane on a day to day basis. I'm travelling on my own 95% of the time, which does make things a lot simpler.

If I know that a type of train has an unreserved coach or coaches then I'll always try to sit there regardless of whether I have a reservation myself.

If that coach is full or crowded and reservations are functioning then I'll look for my reserved seat and, if there is misuse, remove the person sat there if there's no obvious alternative, but only if there's no obvious alternative. Noone has ever refused to move for me, but that's because I take time to weigh up the alternatives first.

Cases or bags in seats get short shrift, especially on Scotrail. I don't speak to the owner but just point silently at the item, it's only once that this didn't get the desired result, so I moved it for them. I still wouldn't move a bag if there's an obvious alternative seat for me though.

If no reservations are displayed then it's a free for all but I'd always give way to anyone who I believed to have special needs or travelling in a legitimate group such as with young children.

Even if I know a service has no functioning reservations I'll always go to the section that I know to be unreserved as a first choice.

Thanks for these words - especially as I have special needs myself ! From Didcot Parkway, the Class 387's to and from Reading and London are I think the least stressful services to board. 8 coaches on most services (I'd love it if one day they had to run 12 because they couldn't detach the 4th )!

The 16:36 from London to Didcot Parkway I'd advise people to get vs the 16:30 - a 5-car IET on the 16:30 is an argument onboard waiting to happen I think.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

And if the train crew announce there are no reservations? what then? And if someone refuses to move from your non reserved seat, what would you do then?

If this is the 16:03 from Birmingham New Street to Leeds, on the 04/04/19 in Coach G where I've booked a table at the guard's van / power car end of the train then I'd find the train manager when I could and say that this trip has been planned for a good few months, that the HST is the train of my childhood and Birmingham New Street is the big station of my childhood.

If that doesn't work then I'd be complaining big time and would probably want some sort of compensation even if I was sat in an alternative that I didn't reserve.

If this happens and I don't get a very sympathetic response then in Spring next year I'll be travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh via York then swapping to an LNER Azuma - unless XC sounded sincere then I'll go from Oxford on the 14:13 to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there! I'd even tweet it.

I know that sounds strange but I wouldn't be wanting a repeat - and on a journey of around 5 hours.

 

[221129]

If this is the 16:03 from Birmingham New Street to Leeds, on the 04/04/19 in Coach G where I've booked a table at the guard's van / power car end of the train then I'd find the train manager when I could and say that this trip has been planned for a good few months, that the HST is the train of my childhood and Birmingham New Street is the big station of my childhood.

If that doesn't work then I'd be complaining big time and would probably want some sort of compensation even if I was sat in an alternative that I didn't reserve.

If this happens and I don't get a very sympathetic response then in Spring next year I'll be travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh via York then swapping to an LNER Azuma - unless XC sounded sincere then I'll go from Oxford on the 14:13 to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there! I'd even tweet it.

I know that sounds strange but I wouldn't be wanting a repeat - and on a journey of around 5 hours.

Am trying to work out if this is for real or if you're just trolling but if the train is unreserved then that is the case. No amount of whining to the TM is likely to change that.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If this is the 16:03 from Birmingham New Street to Leeds, on the 04/04/19 in Coach G where I've booked a table at the guard's van / power car end of the train then I'd find the train manager when I could and say that this trip has been planned for a good few months, that the HST is the train of my childhood and Birmingham New Street is the big station of my childhood.

If that doesn't work then I'd be complaining big time and would probably want some sort of compensation even if I was sat in an alternative that I didn't reserve.

If this happens and I don't get a very sympathetic response then in Spring next year I'll be travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh via York then swapping to an LNER Azuma - unless XC sounded sincere then I'll go from Oxford on the 14:13 to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there! I'd even tweet it.

I know that sounds strange but I wouldn't be wanting a repeat - and on a journey of around 5 hours.

'sincere' meaning if they were very apologetic (like GWR were regarding my Liskeard trip around 6 months ago) in their email / letter to me.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Am trying to work out if this is for real or if you're just trolling but if the train is unreserved then that is the case. No amount of whining to the TM is likely to change that.

Oh I'm not trolling. Hopefully I'm worrying for nothing but you can understand why.

However, I could let it go if XC had a far more serious situation on their hands!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Am trying to work out if this is for real or if you're just trolling but if the train is unreserved then that is the case. No amount of whining to the TM is likely to change that.

If this is the 16:03 from Birmingham New Street to Leeds, on the 04/04/19 in Coach G where I've booked a table at the guard's van / power car end of the train then I'd find the train manager when I could and say that this trip has been planned for a good few months, that the HST is the train of my childhood and Birmingham New Street is the big station of my childhood.

If that doesn't work then I'd be complaining big time and would probably want some sort of compensation even if I was sat in an alternative that I didn't reserve.

If this happens and I don't get a very sympathetic response then in Spring next year I'll be travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh via York then swapping to an LNER Azuma - unless XC sounded sincere then I'll go from Oxford on the 14:13 to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there! I'd even tweet it.

I know that sounds strange but I wouldn't be wanting a repeat - and on a journey of around 5 hours.

I meant to say table seat, sorry.

 

[221129]

Oh I'm not trolling. Hopefully I'm worrying for nothing but you can understand why.

However, I could let it go if XC had a far more serious situation on their hands!

And any hope of compensation is only if you have to stand. If you find an alternative seat then your complaint/demand for compensation will be laughed out of Customer Relations.

 

[Deafdoggie]

From CrossCountrys own website:

Many of our tickets already include seat reservations on specified trains. Even if you buy your ticket through another operator, you can ask them to reserve you a seat free of charge when travelling with us. If for some reason we cannot honour your reservation please ask a member of the on-board team for help.

A member of the on-board team will be happy to endorse your ticket if you ask. You may send your endorsed ticket in to our Customer Relations Team who will give you National Rail Vouchers to the value of at least 5% of the price for that journey in recognition of our inability to honour your seat reservation.

In accordance with your legal rights as a consumer, including those under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you may be eligible to a different level of compensation where CrossCountry is at fault and nothing set out above is intended to limit or exclude your legal rights in these circumstances.  If you believe this applies to your journey, please contact our Customer Relations

 

[embers25]

If this is the 16:03 from Birmingham New Street to Leeds, on the 04/04/19 in Coach G where I've booked a table at the guard's van / power car end of the train then I'd find the train manager when I could and say that this trip has been planned for a good few months, that the HST is the train of my childhood and Birmingham New Street is the big station of my childhood.

If that doesn't work then I'd be complaining big time and would probably want some sort of compensation even if I was sat in an alternative that I didn't reserve.

If this happens and I don't get a very sympathetic response then in Spring next year I'll be travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh via York then swapping to an LNER Azuma - unless XC sounded sincere then I'll go from Oxford on the 14:13 to Birmingham New Street then the 16:03 from there! I'd even tweet it.

I know that sounds strange but I wouldn't be wanting a repeat - and on a journey of around 5 hours.

I'm sorry but whether the HST is the train of you childhood has literally no relevance, as NO train type is ever guaranteed and I can't believe any company would give you compensation based on that and, if you kicked off with the guard over that, what could he do as he could hardly magic up an HST for you! If you are offered another seat I would hope no one would give you compensation either as that is just ridiculous (although clearly XC do which I'd much rather they didn't and instead used the money wasted to lower their ludicrous fares) as you still got a seat and given any train type swap could have lead to a different seat location that is patently ridiculous. I do appreciate people book certain trains in the hope of getting a certain train type (me included) but if I booked a 175 from Shrewsbury-Newport and a 150 showed up my seat wouldn't be honoured but as long as I got a seat that's the end of it.

One thing GWR did following the introduction of IEP's is re-letter their HST's so the seat reservations would still work regardless of which train turns up, which was very sensible. However, if the system is switched off its tough, end of I'm afraid. Obviously I think most people would offer their seat to customers with special needs out of courtesy but beyond that it's tough I'm afraid.

 

[embers25]

From CrossCountrys own website:

Many of our tickets already include seat reservations on specified trains. Even if you buy your ticket through another operator, you can ask them to reserve you a seat free of charge when travelling with us. If for some reason we cannot honour your reservation please ask a member of the on-board team for help.

A member of the on-board team will be happy to endorse your ticket if you ask. You may send your endorsed ticket in to our Customer Relations Team who will give you National Rail Vouchers to the value of at least 5% of the price for that journey in recognition of our inability to honour your seat reservation.

In accordance with your legal rights as a consumer, including those under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you may be eligible to a different level of compensation where CrossCountry is at fault and nothing set out above is intended to limit or exclude your legal rights in these circumstances.  If you believe this applies to your journey, please contact our Customer Relations

Does this in practice mean only if you have to stand you get compensation as if the guard finds you a seat then technically they have honoured their commitment to give you a seat on that train (even if it's not the exact one you booked). I hope my interpretation is correct as the other one is just ridiculous and another example of the current "claim culture". I agree with rail compensation for delays and standing when reserved but that's it.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I think may be that was my anxiety and depression talking. It sounds confusing but I don't agree with no reservations even if the scheduled InterCity train turns up (for example I'm booked onto an HST, Coach G). If it's a Voyager then I understand seat reservations aren't valid but if it's the scheduled HST then I expect reservations to be valid.

I'll never understand really.

I'll be honest, if LNER run 8 coaches instead of 9 then I think as of now they allocate the missing coaches reservations to the quietest coaches. That says something good about LNER!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Also to be fair, positive though, I don't think I've once had problems with seat reservations not being valid on XC trains.

Only the 13:49 from Birmingham New Street to Nottingham on Wednesday 2nd May was the only XC service last year when there was no ticket in the back of my booked seat, C51 (Class 170). The person moved without an argument between us.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm sorry but whether the HST is the train of you childhood has literally no relevance, as NO train type is ever guaranteed and I can't believe any company would give you compensation based on that and, if you kicked off with the guard over that, what could he do as he could hardly magic up an HST for you! If you are offered another seat I would hope no one would give you compensation either as that is just ridiculous (although clearly XC do which I'd much rather they didn't and instead used the money wasted to lower their ludicrous fares) as you still got a seat and given any train type swap could have lead to a different seat location that is patently ridiculous. I do appreciate people book certain trains in the hope of getting a certain train type (me included) but if I booked a 175 from Shrewsbury-Newport and a 150 showed up my seat wouldn't be honoured but as long as I got a seat that's the end of it.

One thing GWR did following the introduction of IEP's is re-letter their HST's so the seat reservations would still work regardless of which train turns up, which was very sensible. However, if the system is switched off its tough, end of I'm afraid. Obviously I think most people would offer their seat to customers with special needs out of courtesy but beyond that it's tough I'm afraid.

If I'm honest, I'm lucky to be one of those who are aware that a Voyager can be substituted by an HST. In fact I've been aware of that for a good 3-4 years at least, if not longer.

 

[yorkie]

...I know that sounds strange but ..

I totally agree with this part of your post. I do not agree with anything else you've said; it's totally unreasonable.

If there are no reservations, there are no reservations. It is not that difficult to understand surely?

As with any unreserved train, if you have a particular need that requires a priority seat, you go to those seats and ask if anyone would be in a position to give one up for you and/or you ask on board staff (politely( if there are any suitable alternatives. If you ask nicely you may even be upgraded to 1st. Creating a scene will get you nowhere.

If I ever witness someone try to turf someone out of a a seat when there are no reservations, I will defend the person who is sat there, and I will make it absolutely clear there are no reservations. I've done this a couple of times before, and I'll do it again.

On another subject, if anyone wishes to debate whether or not seat reservations should be abolished or not please use the thread for that, which can be found here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/my-idea-to-abolish-seat-reservations.179212/

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If there are no reservations, there are no reservations. It is not that difficult to understand surely?

I have to say unfortunately I disagree here

Reservations don't simply disappear into the ether if the train company somehow fails to display them, no more than seat reservations "don't exist" on flights just because there aren't displays, or cards put out! They do still exist, so I'm not sure that I can actually agree with the quoted statement!

It is, then, purely a question of whether it is the policy of the particular train company in question to enforce, or not to enforce, or to wholesale nullify, seat reservations that have not been displayed.

Now, personally, I can feel sympathy for passengers who haven't made a reservation, who then have to play musical chairs if reservations are enforced, even though they're not displayed.

But at the end of the day they don't have a reservation, so they should not really feel that they have an entitlement to any seat at all (although it is a common misconception than standard class tickets entitle you to a seat). So if someone without a reservation gets a seat at all, and they even manage to stay in it throughout their journey - then that should be regarded as a bonus, surely?!

In particular, it seems somewhat surprising or even perverse that someone who doesn't have a reservation should have priority in terms of being allowed to sit in a particular seat, over someone who has actually reserved that very seat!

Obviously I realise that I am probably in the minority among forum members here, but in recent years having most frequently made journeys (on reservable services) on TOCs like CrossCountry, that usually enforce reservations whether they are displayed or not, I suppose it is just "the way it is" in my view. Perhaps the Ten Minute Reservations offered by CrossCountry have lulled me into this attitude!

 

[yorkie]

I have to say unfortunately I disagree here

I disagree, and all reasonable TOCs do not enforce invisible reservations. Most people can see how ridiculous that would be. Have you read the many posts pointing this out? Do you just choose to ignore them? Repeating an unpopular viewpoint lots of times does not make that viewpoint any more correct.

Any comparison with planes is totally irrelevant as National Rail trains allow walk-up travel.

XC and Virgin are vexatious TOCs in various areas, so the fact they have a ludicrous policy regarding non-reserved seating being invisibly reserved is consistent with their general poor behaviour and reputation. Given no other TOCs share that policy, it is pretty obvious they've got it wrong and the others are in the right.

Also if anyone refused to move from an unreserved seat, not only would they be morally right, but they'd not be in breach of any byelaw either. So a policy of asking someone to move, when they cannot be made to move, is just putting staff and passengers alike in a position of unnecessary conflict. Surely you can see that?!

 

[VT 390]

What are the rules about seat reservations on London Northwestern Railway as I am sure they only have the counting place reservations for advanced tickets and not actual seat reservations but a few weeks ago I was travelling from Long Buckby to London Euston and someone came up to me and said I was in their seat even though there were no reservation labels and London Northwestern Railway don't do specific seat reservations I tried to explain this to them but they were insistent that I was in their seat, in the end I just moved to another empty seat to avoid an argument but am I right in that London Northwestern Railway do not do specific seat reservations or was it just that they were not put out on that day?

 

[yorkie]

West Midlands Trains (who operate trains branded LNR and WMR) don't do allocated seat reservations. The passenger made it up.

 

[Mag_seven]

If there are no reservations, there are no reservations. It is not that difficult to understand surely?

There was a seat reservation printer failure at Paddington today so "Atos Annie" was requesting over the station tannoy that people with reservations just "sit in any available seat".

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the rules about seat reservations on London Northwestern Railway as I am sure they only have the counting place reservations for advanced tickets and not actual seat reservations but a few weeks ago I was travelling from Long Buckby to London Euston and someone came up to me and said I was in their seat even though there were no reservation labels and London Northwestern Railway don't do specific seat reservations I tried to explain this to them but they were insistent that I was in their seat, in the end I just moved to another empty seat to avoid an argument but am I right in that London Northwestern Railway do not do specific seat reservations or was it just that they were not put out on that day?

No LNR/WMT service has seat reservations, they were abandoned by LM quite early on as they could not be placed reliably in the tight turnarounds at Euston which meant lots of stupid games of musical chairs (staff would place them long after the train had been called and everyone boarded and taken seats anyway). They may well make a comeback with the Aventras as I believe they are getting electronic displays to avoid this issue.

Counted places are just for Advance ticket purposes and do not entitle a seat. This is an issue with them and I wish there had been another way to implement quotas, such as on DB where it appears in the Via field on the ticket.

Anglicised example of this - if you were going to go from Bletchley to MKC on local trains then VT to Chester then Merseyrail to Liverpool on a VT+Connections Advance, for instance, you might get VIA: MKC*VT1234*HOO, i.e. any train via Milton Keynes Central, then train VT1234 only, then any train via Hooton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm on a short formed GWR 800 on which the reservation system is also broken.

At every station the guard is announcing clearly that reservations do not apply and to sit anywhere, as soon as the doors are open and on departure.

This is exactly how it should be done.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
Counted places are just for Advance ticket purposes and do not entitle a seat. This is an issue with them and I wish there had been another way to implement quotas, such as on DB where it appears in the Via field on the ticket.

Anglicised example of this - if you were going to go from Bletchley to MKC on local trains then VT to Chester then Merseyrail to Liverpool on a VT+Connections Advance, for instance, you might get VIA: MKC*VT1234*HOO, i.e. any train via Milton Keynes Central, then train VT1234 only, then any train via Hooton.

This would only be any good if such gobbledegook was properly and readily explained to paying passengers, otherwise it would just serve to confuse.

 

[Wychwood93]

I'm on a short formed GWR 800 on which the reservation system is also broken.

At every station the guard is announcing clearly that reservations do not apply and to sit anywhere, as soon as the doors are open and on departure.

This is exactly how it should be done.

Well said - the should is the important bit.

 

[AndrewE]

On VTWC Sat 9 and Mon 11 March no reservations were displayed, and it was announced that it was "due to the failure of the national reservation system." VTWC nationally, "Virgin" nationally or all trains was not admitted, however it was explained at every stop and the unreserved coach was highlighted for people without reservations.
I don't know how that worked because there would have been loads of seats not taken by reservation holders in the other coaches... There was no advice about being able (or not) to claim a reserved seat that wasn't shown, but luckily nobody asked for the seats we were sitting in.
As it happens we got on in Edinburgh for the Monday train & it was full of rugby fans travelling back to S Wales - from what I saw of people detraining at Crewe, the train was packed in std class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well said - the should is the important bit.

FWIW she also appeared to be going round people who were standing and offering them upgrades to 1st for free (rather than fully declassifying).

 

[embers25]

On 0636 from Exeter to Padd this morning and its 9 coach IEP vice 10 Car, reverse formation and no seat reservations. Guard announced stops, but nothing about seat reservations. Given this train sometimes gets rather snug by Newbury lets see what happens as someone was sat in my reserved seat and I'm guessing I'm sat in someone else's. Out of interest, does anyone know what the unreserved coach usually is on 9 and 5/10 car IEP's, if they have one?

 

[CC 72100]

On 0636 from Exeter to Padd this morning and its 9 coach IEP vice 10 Car, reverse formation and no seat reservations. Guard announced stops, but nothing about seat reservations. Given this train sometimes gets rather snug by Newbury lets see what happens as someone was sat in my reserved seat and I'm guessing I'm sat in someone else's. Out of interest, does anyone know what the unreserved coach usually is on 9 and 5/10 car IEP's, if they have one?

Coach G - quiet coach of the '2nd' set when a 10 car, towards the middle of the train on a 9-car.

Nothing on a 5 car but anecdotally D (composite vehicle) seems best bet.

 

[Senex]

On VTWC Sat 9 and Mon 11 March no reservations were displayed, and it was announced that it was "due to the failure of the national reservation system." VTWC nationally, "Virgin" nationally or all trains was not admitted, however it was explained at every stop and the unreserved coach was highlighted for people without reservations.
I don't know how that worked because there would have been loads of seats not taken by reservation holders in the other coaches... There was no advice about being able (or not) to claim a reserved seat that wasn't shown, but luckily nobody asked for the seats we were sitting in.
As it happens we got on in Edinburgh for the Monday train & it was full of rugby fans travelling back to S Wales - from what I saw of people detraining at Crewe, the train was packed in std class.

But surely the announcement should have been as on Bletchleyite's train as reported in #111, and no question of directing passengers without reservations to the unreserved coach and thus implying that reservations still applied, unmarked, in the rest of the train. Isn't it time for a clear and enforced national policy on this issue?

 

[embers25]

Coach G - quiet coach of the '2nd' set when a 10 car, towards the middle of the train on a 9-car.

Nothing on a 5 car but anecdotally D (composite vehicle) seems best bet.

Many thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But surely the announcement should have been as on Bletchleyite's train as reported in #111, and no question of directing passengers without reservations to the unreserved coach and thus implying that reservations still applied, unmarked, in the rest of the train. Isn't it time for a clear and enforced national policy on this issue?

Yes, and clear signage in each coach of every train that is ever used on a reservable service.