Police called as commuter sits in empty first class zone on packed rush-hour train

[jon0844]

Maybe someone will suggest that we make trains compulsory reservations, which would solve the problem if you don't mind losing the ability to turn up and go.

So for Intercity travel, you have to reserve a seat. No standees at all.
For commuters, turn everything into a glorified tube train with virtually no seats.

While I am sure first class WILL go for commuter trains, the whole point is that people who need a seat or place to work can pay extra. Don't pay extra, don't go in first class. It's pretty simple and easy to understand. And those high fares can subsidise others, so be careful about what you wish for.

 

[infobleep]

Indeed, however the person this this scenario was sat in First I believe?

I was commenting on the fact someone siad it was obvious they shouldn't walk through first class but that doesn't matter as long as they don't stand. I suspect if they walked through and back agian continously, they would not be in breech. I know it's a silly idea but there is nothing to stop one walking through. If for exanple firet class was practically empty then one could legitimately walk through and if they times their walk in so much as they didn't end up standing at any point, then they would be with Their rights to do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is going to make commuter trains compulsory reservation. Is there anywhere in the world that does that? I do however agree with whoever said that 1st should be abolished on these, and it's only really the South East and Scotland that have had it in a very long time - in the north and Midlands commuter trains do not have 1st.

However, it would be a solution to overcrowding on XC (full XC, not "XC-lite" which is a regional express service that is a poor fit for XC and needs moving to WMT or EMT) provided there were local services put in place for any situations where XC provide the only local service.

It would of course help if TOCs would stop price-dumping Advance tickets on trains they know will have standees (yes, you, LNR and LM before you). Perhaps a penalty should be written into future franchise agreements for doing this? A sensible level may be that the TOC loses all revenue for any Advance ticket sold[1] on any train where there are surveyed standing passengers on more than 10% of that day of the week in any given year (so allowing for special events etc which may not be planned before the tickets are released).

 

[nanstallon]

Maybe someone will suggest that we make trains compulsory reservations, which would solve the problem if you don't mind losing the ability to turn up and go.

So for Intercity travel, you have to reserve a seat. No standees at all.
For commuters, turn everything into a glorified tube train with virtually no seats.

While I am sure first class WILL go for commuter trains, the whole point is that people who need a seat or place to work can pay extra. Don't pay extra, don't go in first class. It's pretty simple and easy to understand. And those high fares can subsidise others, so be careful about what you wish for.

It comes down to whether railways are a public service, or a private business. Both have extremes - the government will not, and indeed cannot, write a blank cheque for a half hourly service between Inverness and Wick, reopen the Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Balluchulish branches etc; but I for one object to a still heavily taxpayer subsidised privatised railway ruthlessly milking its customers with ridiculously expensive tickets (unless you can commit months ahead to a specific train) and overcrowded trains.

 

[sefton]

but there were people sat there. People who had paid the proper price for their tickets. Train companies make far more money off First Class passengers than they do off Standard Class. First Class passengers are subsidising the rest

There obviously were not people sat there as otherwise he could not have sat in the empty seat!

As for first class passengers subsidising standard class - utter nonsense.

 

[Journeyman]

There obviously were not people sat there as otherwise he could not have sat in the empty seat!

As for first class passengers subsidising standard class - utter nonsense.

There were people sat in the First Class area who had first class tickets.

Of course first class travellers subsidise others - a train has fixed running costs, so a first class ticket holder contributes more to those costs, and can in many cases help its running to be profitable.

 

[boxy321]

agreed - i wish my monthly commute cost only £142!

My nnetwork first class season ticket is £144!

 

[Deepgreen]

What? To quote you.........."the person themself said they had been doing it often". Could you elaborate on that?

If I'm understanding this correctly the train arrived at Birmingham New Street, wouldn't there normally be a BTP presence there?

I'm just amazed at how you can conclude that the passenger was "100% in the wrong"!

It's all in the facts that have been presented, and, assuming these are correct:
1. He was in first class without a first class ticket,
2. He had done it many times before,
3. He was resistant to being put straight to the extent that the BTP were called.

Any one of these alone would put him in the wrong.

 

[Deepgreen]

He could of course opted to stand in the 'deserted' first class section and been perfectly within rights, no?

A common mis-perception - crowded trains often have people standing in first who are frequently unaware of their transgression. Of course, it's rarely enforced, but I have seen one belligerent passenger who was caught sitting and said; "oh, I'll stand then" and was told to decamp by the guard. It's a brave staff member who tries to get people standing in first class to move to a packed standard class, of course.

 

[mrcheek]

Only because they choose to. And don't forget the jolly old taxpayer, who doesn't have the choice.

so your solution is to abolish taxpayer support? well I guess it would mean that guy could get a seat in Standard then.....

 

[mrcheek]

There obviously were not people sat there as otherwise he could not have sat in the empty seat!

As for first class passengers subsidising standard class - utter nonsense.

There were people sat in other First Class seats who had paid full fare. This passenger chose to break the law by sitting in a First Class seat which he had not paid for, and apparently refused to do so when given the opportunity.
Train companies make more profit per ticket on First Class then Standard, so First Class passengers are subsidising the rest. Thats a simple statement of fact.

 

[kristiang85]

but there were people sat there. People who had paid the proper price for their tickets. Train companies make far more money off First Class passengers than they do off Standard Class. First Class passengers are subsidising the rest

I'd be fairly certain this is incorrect.

I'm more inclined to argue that walk-up standing class tickets are the main income earners - first class is generally 50% more than the price of the standards (on networks I use anyway), and usually only 1/6 of the capacity of the train, so I can't see how this would be true. Also given how I've never really seen first class at capacity, yet many times standard is standing room only, I think the poor sods who walked up and didn't get a seat (so minimal use of the facilities) are the ones we should thank for subsidising the railways!

I'd like to see some facts and figures on this though, as I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 

[6Gman]

It comes down to whether railways are a public service, or a private business. Both have extremes - the government will not, and indeed cannot, write a blank cheque for a half hourly service between Inverness and Wick, reopen the Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Balluchulish branches etc; but I for one object to a still heavily taxpayer subsidised privatised railway ruthlessly milking its customers with ridiculously expensive tickets (unless you can commit months ahead to a specific train) and overcrowded trains.[

I had a very nice day out yesterday. 60 miles of travel for around £12. Class 175 each way. Plenty of room outbound; on the return everyone got a seat though there were very few empty initially.

And if the fares were lower the subsidy would have to be higher!

 

[Clayton]

The way you wrote that makes me suspect you may decide to protest by upgrading yourself to first class from time to time?

No I’m obedient! I was more referring to some of the posters here who take a very strict rules-is-rules and sod the customers approach

 

[nottsnurse]

The sooner 'First Class' is got rid of the better.

 

[6Gman]

The sooner 'First Class' is got rid of the better.

As far as I can see abolishing First Class on this particular service would create precisely three extra seats!

 

[infobleep]

Maybe someone will suggest that we make trains compulsory reservations, which would solve the problem if you don't mind losing the ability to turn up and go.

So for Intercity travel, you have to reserve a seat. No standees at all.
For commuters, turn everything into a glorified tube train with virtually no seats.

While I am sure first class WILL go for commuter trains, the whole point is that people who need a seat or place to work can pay extra. Don't pay extra, don't go in first class. It's pretty simple and easy to understand. And those high fares can subsidise others, so be careful about what you wish for.

Don't pay extra, sit in declassified first clsss and enjoy first class comforts at standard class prices.

In fact you can even stand in declassified first class if you so wish.

 

[221129]

Don't pay extra, sit in declassified fidy9clsss and enjoy first class comforts at standard class prices.

In fact you can even stand in declassified first class if you so wish.

Not sure where you're trying to go with this?

It wasn't declassified.

 

[mmh]

but there were people sat there. People who had paid the proper price for their tickets. Train companies make far more money off First Class passengers than they do off Standard Class. First Class passengers are subsidising the rest

If you're concerned that someone near you might have paid less than you, I recommend never travelling by train or plane, because you're almost certainly in the company of people who've paid more than you, less than you, or nothing and have a valid ticket.

 

[infobleep]

Not sure where you're trying to go with this?

It wasn't declassified.

My comment was in relation to commuter trains, as the previous poster mentioned. Obviously not all commuter trains but those with declassified first class. There is a reasonable amount about.

 

[jon0844]

Declassified first isn't first class so I'm not sure how that's relevant?

 

[Master29]

I have a Disabled Adult Railcard and I have never been allowed or even offered to travel in First Class when the ticket has been inspected.

You might have done had you sat in there, and of course on the new IET`s they only have wheelchair spaces in the first class coaches in the 5 car units so it obviously does happen.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would be interested if members could point out how it is suggested that the passenger in question should have obtained a First Class ticket, or a First Class excess, prior to boarding - seeing as National Rail Enquiries suggests there are no ticketing facilities at all at Wilnecote.

 

[Journeyman]

I would be interested if members could point out how it is suggested that the passenger in question should have obtained a First Class ticket, or a First Class excess, prior to boarding - seeing as National Rail Enquiries suggests there are no ticketing facilities at all at Wilnecote.

He could have obtained those on the train, but clearly decided to kick up a fuss instead.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

He could have obtained those on the train, but clearly decided to kick up a fuss instead.

I certainly wouldn't disagree that the passenger was wrong to have refused to pay the appropriate fare upon being asked, but I was under the impression that some people thought he was in the wrong merely for sitting down without a first class ticket.

 

[AM9]

If you're concerned that someone near you might have paid less than you, I recommend never travelling by train or plane, because you're almost certainly in the company of people who've paid more than you, less than you, or nothing and have a valid ticket.

I've never understood the mentality of those who whine about others who might be paying less than they do. Provided every passenger pays the correct fare for their journey, it's only the concern of the individual how much they themselves pay. Advances, off-peak and other discounted fares are 'proper fares', so they should get over it! Any traveller can choose to accept restrictions on their route, time or TOC in order to benefit from lower price tickets where they are available. As you say, if that' s too much for somebody's jealous nature to handle, then travel by a different mode.

 

[adamello]

He could have obtained those on the train, but clearly decided to kick up a fuss instead.

...To make matters worse, Mr White was told he could not deduct the price of a standard fare from the first class charge...

Yes, by the book, he shouldn't have remained without a first class ticket, but there are a couple of points, if we give the customer the benefit of doubt, he does suggest he tried to get an excess fare while on board.
Reading his comments that the TM was smirking and then hid himself away in a cab following the incident, does make me feel that the TM was more interested in getting revenue rather than thinking "..Standard is crush loaded, I should really declassify first.." granted this is a discretionary decision.
Hopefully due to the media attention, and BTP being called but not required, then XC will have a bit of an investigation over how the situation actually was, and handled on the day.
At the end of the day £16 isn't a great deal, and fairly affordable so it is clear that the passenger is highlighting the principle of the actions.

 

[Gems]

First class needs to be swept away with perhaps the exception of longer inter-city routes. It is a relic of a bygone age.

Northern are in possession of a 158 ex Scotrail that still has a first class. You need to wipe your feet when you come out of it. Paying extra to sit in that, I'd want them to pay me.

 

[AM9]

... Reading his comments that the TM was smirking and then hid himself away in a cab following the incident, does make me feel that the TM was more interested in getting revenue rather than thinking "..Standard is crush loaded, I should really declassify first.." granted this is a discretionary decision. ...

That comment is not relevant at all to the issue, unless you were a witness to the entire event. It's just him trying to drum up sympathy, readily repeated by the newspaper in a cynical attempt to champion their selected underdog. He may have earnt the TM's smirk (if there actually was one) by arguing about buying an excess being his right. The facts are as stated in that he travelled in a 1st class area with a standard ticket and had to purchase a new ticket appropriate to the journey he was making. An excess would have been inappropriate and added to the 'pay only when you get caught' argument which would be unfair to all passengers who didn't game the system.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, by the book, he shouldn't have remained without a first class ticket, but there are a couple of points, if we give the customer the benefit of doubt, he does suggest he tried to get an excess fare while on board.
Reading his comments that the TM was smirking and then hid himself away in a cab following the incident, does make me feel that the TM was more interested in getting revenue rather than thinking "..Standard is crush loaded, I should really declassify first.." granted this is a discretionary decision.
Hopefully due to the media attention, and BTP being called but not required, then XC will have a bit of an investigation over how the situation actually was, and handled on the day.
At the end of the day £16 isn't a great deal, and fairly affordable so it is clear that the passenger is highlighting the principle of the actions.

Indeed - something that doesn't seem to have been addressed so far is that the guard (allegedly) refused to sell the passenger the appropriate excess fare, insisting on payment of the full First Class fare anew. If National Rail Enquiries is correct in saying that Wilnecote has no ticketing facilities then that appears to have been an incorrect approach by the guard, and the passenger's objections are a little more understandable.