GWR Class 800

[Bletchleyite]

Neil has a bee in his bonnet about the 'Reading Commuter'. Reading is the second busiest interchange station on the railways outside London with over 4 million people a year changing trains - that's 11,500 per day. How will you ensure that passengers off the West of England trains will continue their journeys if they don't happen to be going to Paddington?

Pick up/set down only, with a proper 12-car 3+2-seated EMU service for the commuters.

Mixing commuters with InterCity passengers demonstrably does not work.

As I've said before, I so hope HEx fails once Crossrail opens, freeing up 4 fast line paths per hour to look at doing it properly. A good many GWR services would be fine as 5-car sets if you took Reading passengers off them.

 

[cactustwirly]

Pick up/set down only, with a proper 12-car 3+2-seated EMU service for the commuters.

Mixing commuters with InterCity passengers demonstrably does not work.

As I've said before, I so hope HEx fails once Crossrail opens, freeing up 4 fast line paths per hour to look at doing it properly. A good many GWR services would be fine as 5-car sets if you took Reading passengers off them.

Absolute rubbish, you clearly haven't travelled on GWR intercity services.
'Reading commuters' are a very small issue, and the fact that you think 5 car units would be suitable is laughable!
The GWML definitely needs 9/10 car 800s west of Reading!

 

[coppercapped]

Pick up/set down only, with a proper 12-car 3+2-seated EMU service for the commuters.

Mixing commuters with InterCity passengers demonstrably does not work.

As I've said before, I so hope HEx fails once Crossrail opens, freeing up 4 fast line paths per hour to look at doing it properly. A good many GWR services would be fine as 5-car sets if you took Reading passengers off them.

And the reasons why your suggestion for pick up / set down restrictions won't work well has been explained to you several times.

Westbound long distance trains from Reading over the three hour evening peak are often full and standing - and very large numbers of people disembark at Reading in the morning peak from places to the west. The issues are not concerned only with your archetypical 'Reading (to London) Commuter'. It's time you accepted these facts.

As 'commuters' have been mixing with 'InterCity' passengers for many decades it demonstrably DOES work. It's not put many people off rail travel - on this corridor at least. People might moan - but then they always have. The real source of discomfort - in the packed trains of the inner-suburban service - has now been resolved. People living between Slough and London now really do have room to breath - for the next couple of years at least until demand grows from places like Southall where huge numbers of new houses are being built on the old gasworks site.

And that's a very odd attitude for a train spotter - to hope that a successful train operation fails...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that's a very odd attitude for a train spotter - to hope that a successful train operation fails...

I'm not a "train spotter", or at least I haven't stood on a platform with a book since I was aged under 10! Your posts are normally so well informed (even if I don't agree with your very strongly pro-commercial perspective nor about Reading), so this bit of childishness is unwelcome.

The reason I dislike HEx is that it is a waste of paths that could be used to far better ends once Crossrail becomes more convenient for everyone, as it likely will.

 

[PHILIPE]

Can we discuss 800s please

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not a "train spotter", or at least I haven't stood on a platform with a book since I was aged under 10! Your posts are normally so well informed (even if I don't agree with your very strongly pro-commercial perspective nor about Reading), so this bit of childishness is unwelcome.

The reason I dislike HEx is that it is a waste of paths that could be used to far better ends once Crossrail becomes more convenient for everyone, as it likely will.

How is it a waste of paths? Surely it's a good use of paths, since it enables Slough & Maidenhead to get a proper fast peak time service?

 

[Master29]

Oxford has two through platforms, one in each direction, where trains could be split and joined. It has an intensive service with at least six passenger trains per hour running to and from the south. Plymouth has several parallel platforms.
Now consider the issues which could arise at Oxford if there are difficulties in joining trains or that one part is late. Do you hold the first part and block the platform for all other trains? Do you have a train crew to work the first part onwards? They may already be working a train back in the other direction. The situation would be more complicated if the delayed section is running behind another train. How do you get the second part to leap-frog this train to couple to the first part?

A bit of consideration will show you why the situations are different and why, with the present layout, no train planner in their right mind would attempt to separate and join trains there.
I agree but how does this relate to 9 car formations being used to the Malverns?

Neil has a bee in his bonnet about the 'Reading Commuter'. Reading is the second busiest interchange station on the railways outside London with over 4 million people a year changing trains - that's 11,500 per day. How will you ensure that passengers off the West of England trains will continue their journeys if they don't happen to be going to Paddington?

But he does have a point. Continue their journeys to where? There isn`t anywhere that couldn`t be served from other stations from the West except maybe Oxford. The Gatwick GWR trains are so slow you`d be better off going to Paddington Victoria anyway.

Absolute rubbish, you clearly haven't travelled on GWR intercity services.
'Reading commuters' are a very small issue, and the fact that you think 5 car units would be suitable is laughable!
The GWML definitely needs 9/10 car 800s west of Reading!

Say that when the so and so`s cram into already packed trains from the West because they cannot be bothered using the other services available.
I agree there should be longer trains West of Reading.

Can we discuss 800s please

This is about class 800`s.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Why are there 5 and 9 car sets surely it should be 5 and 10 cars sets?

 

[Thunderer]

Saw today that a 2x5 IET had to have all passengers in the front unit as the second 5 car 800 was closed off due to crew shortages.

This is something the DfT were warned would happen and it has. But they knew best didn't they. More 9 cars should have ordered and not the 2x5 combo they went with.

100% correct. I got on a 2x5 car Saturday morning, and the half I got on was packed. I couldn't walk through the train to see if it was quieter in the second set. It's stupidity at its best from the DFT. Also, when sitting in the first class of the composite coach you have people trudging through at every stop, which I find infuriating..hardly First Class ambience eh? Two trolleys, no buffet etc and the classic one half only turning up, so everyone shoe-horns into 5 coaches! They are god awful trains, I've tried to think of something positive about them, but I've come up with nothing.

 

[Master29]

100% correct. I got on a 2x5 car Saturday morning, and the half I got on was packed. I couldn't walk through the train to see if it was quieter in the second set. It's stupidity at its best from the DFT. Also, when sitting in the first class of the composite coach you have people trudging through at every stop, which I find infuriating..hardly First Class ambience eh? Two trolleys, no buffet etc and the classic one half only turning up, so everyone shoe-horns into 5 coaches! They are god awful trains, I've tried to think of something positive about them, but I've come up with nothing.

You wait until the season really kicks of in the West. These things have appalling ratings on tripadvisor and you can only wonder what will be written.

 

[Thunderer]

You wait until the season really kicks of in the West. These things have appalling ratings on tripadvisor and you can only wonder what will be written.

Luckily my journey Saturday was 20 mins and by god, I was glad to get off! I'm sorry, but the 800/802 is really not up to Inter-City standard. I've travelled all over the UK during the past 45 years in various coaches and fixed formation trains such as the HST and I've kept an open mind and travelled on 800/802's now over various distances, in both First and Standard class and I think they offer the fare paying passenger very poor value for money (especially 1st class). I used to love travelling by train, but I genuinely can't wait to get off these things. The DFT strikes again, meddling with the railways and this is the end result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You wait until the season really kicks of in the West. These things have appalling ratings on tripadvisor and you can only wonder what will be written.

I didn't know there were TOC reviews on Tripadvisor, but yes, they do seem to have received a vitriolic slating. Particularly the seats in both classes, but also the ride. The most annoying thing is that with better seats and a nicer interior scheme (think TPE) they would probably not be anywhere near as badly regarded.

Well, I guess Flybe will be kept in business, and there won't be an overcrowding issue...

 

[Goldfish62]

You wait until the season really kicks of in the West. These things have appalling ratings on tripadvisor and you can only wonder what will be written.

Wait until there's five coaches only through Cornwall in the peak season...

 

[fgwrich]

Jimm. Have you ever journeyed to or from Cornwall at all by rail?. I`ve also said before I don`t have a problem on certain services being split but every train I`ve got on most mornings and I`ve done this for many years is usually nearly full after Truro. Contrast this with the many 9 car trains from Worcester and the Malverns as Irish rail rightly points out and there is a valid criticism. If as you say it`s to fit peak service demand why in that case are those trains not split. It works both ways. You can`t say one can have 9 car and the others have to split. Anyone who uses the West of England line would tell you longer trains are necessary most of the time. Yes. I understand there is going to be more peak services ph when needed as there should be but that doesn`t reflect travel from London to the south west. You are clearly misinformed about the differences in the numbers of people visiting Devon and Cornwall which are much higher for longer periods of the year and yes, they can and do reach the summer holiday levels at other times of the year and quite regularly. I guarantee this would be far more than visitors to Worcester and the Malverns.
As an aside, didn`t GWR use the class 180`s which clearly had smaller capacity on this route. I never remember a class 180 making it into Cornwall which goes to show the point.
You also have a vendetta against buffets on the 800`s for some reasons when virtually everyone I know doesn`t. Of course some won`t use them but GWR have this wrong on the West of England for sure. It`s not about a Pullman service either.

I agree with this and the comments on the similar theme. I was in Cornwall in Mid January, funny enough on a 5 car, and Funny enough it was about 90% Full. Yes, the loadings will be spread out with further timetable improvements for the southwest, but a lot of these passengers weren't just local passengers. They had travelled for some distance, and it's easy to see why they are getting slated. They should have at least been more of a 60-70/40-30 split between 9 cars and 5 cars to the South West. You only have to speak to the staff, working these units day to day to understand that they are becoming nothing more than a disaster - I commute on them, and it's not easy to find a member of staff with a good word for them! Come to think of it, why cant the fleet be operated as 9 cars to Penzance, and the 5 cars on the shorter planned Exeter services possibly splitting there to allow 5 to Paignton and 5 to Plymouth?

A post above mentions the time it takes to split and join units - and potentially blocking platform space at Oxford. Yes, but these were ordered by the DfT who had a Bournemouth style of operation in mind. 10 car comes in, 5 car splits and heads off to their destination, 5 car heads off to the carriage sidings. All supposed to be fairly quickly operated. So I don't see why such operation, considered wonderful by the DfT and perfected by the Southern for Bournemouth, Couldn't also work at Oxford? Unless there are issues in the splitting of and setting up of the TMS's on each units that would really occupy the platforms space for that length of time? Yet it's considered perfectly acceptable for Plymouth which despite having more platforms than Oxford, is painted as somewhat of a rural backwater where their platform occupancy is significantly lower.

 

[coppercapped]

SNIP
A post above mentions the time it takes to split and join units - and potentially blocking platform space at Oxford. Yes, but these were ordered by the DfT who had a Bournemouth style of operation in mind. 10 car comes in, 5 car splits and heads off to their destination, 5 car heads off to the carriage sidings. All supposed to be fairly quickly operated. So I don't see why such operation, considered wonderful by the DfT and perfected by the Southern for Bournemouth, Couldn't also work at Oxford? Unless there are issues in the splitting of and setting up of the TMS's on each units that would really occupy the platforms space for that length of time? Yet it's considered perfectly acceptable for Plymouth which despite having more platforms than Oxford, is painted as somewhat of a rural backwater where their platform occupancy is significantly lower.

The situation at Bournemouth and at either Oxford or Swindon is different. At Bournemouth the part that was in the carriage siding is unlikely to be delayed in returning to the platform and, most importantly, it has no passengers in it.

I have it on good authority that some 10 years ago Stuart Baker (the 'Great Cartographer' at the DfT) proposed this form of operation at Swindon so the direct Gloucester and Cheltenham services could be intensified by portion working off Bristol services. (His concepts for such a mode of operation are the reason that so many 5-car Class 80Xs have been ordered for issue to gWr). His proposals could work in the Down direction but as railway staff pointed out at the time there were enormous potential difficulties in the Up direction:

• the front portion arrives on time, but the rear is 20, 30 or 40 minutes late. What do you do?
  • Hold the passengers in the front portion for 40 minutes to await the arrival of the delayed section? Or tip them out to take their chance on the next train calling there? They are likely to be miffed - after all their train was on time.
  • The driver of the front portion is rostered to take the whole train on to London. The driver of the rear portion has another working, if he/she now takes the delayed train on to London how do you staff his or her's next working?
  • What happens when the front portion reaches London by itself? It can of course use its scheduled platform but how do you deal with the second part arriving 40 minutes later? Do you block the platform until the second part arrives and couples up? If so what do you do with the trains that were scheduled to use the platform in the meantime remembering that in peak times trains turn round in 20 minutes or so?
• similarly if the rear portion arrives on time, but the front is delayed? It probably doesn't matter in which order the units are connected, but seat reservations, for example, would be all over the place. (No change there, then!)

As far as I am aware there are no longer any proposals to split and join trains at Swindon.

Both Swindon and Plymouth have parallel platforms so a delayed train will not block other trains from getting past. The same is true of Exeter St. Davids and, to a certain extent, Newton Abbot. Portion working from these stations does not present the same constraints as those at Oxford.

Oxford has only two through platforms and has more trains per hour to and from different destinations than Bournemouth. Time to affect splitting and joining is very limited but in principle if the rear portion of a Down train ran straight to the carriage sidings and waited there until its return working the operation would be analogous to that at Bournemouth - but with the added complication of the frequent heavy freights on the through roads limiting access between the Down and the Up sides.
If, however, the second portion worked on to another destination the same difficulties as I described at Swindon would be present with the added complication that a portion waiting at the platform would block all Up trains from this platform. Although the layout is now bi-directionally signalled there is only one other through platform and that is already busy. Further delays are pre-programmed.

Portion working can work, but the constraints need to be recognised.

 

[Wychwood93]

I agree with this and the comments on the similar theme. I was in Cornwall in Mid January, funny enough on a 5 car, and Funny enough it was about 90% Full. Yes, the loadings will be spread out with further timetable improvements for the southwest, but a lot of these passengers weren't just local passengers. They had travelled for some distance, and it's easy to see why they are getting slated. They should have at least been more of a 60-70/40-30 split between 9 cars and 5 cars to the South West. You only have to speak to the staff, working these units day to day to understand that they are becoming nothing more than a disaster - I commute on them, and it's not easy to find a member of staff with a good word for them! Come to think of it, why cant the fleet be operated as 9 cars to Penzance, and the 5 cars on the shorter planned Exeter services possibly splitting there to allow 5 to Paignton and 5 to Plymouth?

A post above mentions the time it takes to split and join units - and potentially blocking platform space at Oxford. Yes, but these were ordered by the DfT who had a Bournemouth style of operation in mind. 10 car comes in, 5 car splits and heads off to their destination, 5 car heads off to the carriage sidings. All supposed to be fairly quickly operated. So I don't see why such operation, considered wonderful by the DfT and perfected by the Southern for Bournemouth, Couldn't also work at Oxford? Unless there are issues in the splitting of and setting up of the TMS's on each units that would really occupy the platforms space for that length of time? Yet it's considered perfectly acceptable for Plymouth which despite having more platforms than Oxford, is painted as somewhat of a rural backwater where their platform occupancy is significantly lower.

Re. para 2 - in the May timetable the Bournemouth line sees 7 splits at Southampton - the 15.35, 16.35, 17.05, 17.35, 18.05, 18.35 and finally the 19.05. This is not counting the workings back from the a.m Waterloo peak which return as 10-cars and generally split at Bournemouth. On the up there are more incidences of attaching than the timetable shows - three are shown to attach at Southampton, the 08.20 ex-Weymouth does as well and then to form the p.m peak services there are some at Bournemouth. Perhaps down this way we do it well!
Edit: just seen coppercapped post - at Bournemouth there will indeed be no PAX in the attach/detach - at Southampton there are usually PAX (passengers) in both parts.

 

[coppercapped]

Re. para 2 - in the May timetable the Bournemouth line sees 7 splits at Southampton - the 15.35, 16.35, 17.05, 17.35, 18.05, 18.35 and finally the 19.05. This is not counting the workings back from the a.m Waterloo peak which return as 10-cars and generally split at Bournemouth. On the up there are more incidences of attaching than the timetable shows - three are shown to attach at Southampton, the 08.20 ex-Weymouth does as well and then to form the p.m peak services there are some at Bournemouth. Perhaps down this way we do it well!
Edit: just seen coppercapped post - at Bournemouth there will indeed be no PAX in the attach/detach - at Southampton there are usually PAX (passengers) in both parts.

I didn't know about the Southampton splits and joins, but it does have four through platform lines so although any delay in waiting for sections is undesirable it would not so terminally catastrophic as would be the case at Oxford.

 

[43096]

Can we please stop pretending that everyone who gets on a London train at Penzance or Truro and vice-versa is going to stay on the train for the entire journey and wants to eat in a restaurant car? A number of posters on this forum may be deeply obsessed by Pullman restaurants - by and large the average passenger isn't and will never eat in one, even when the opportunity is there.

People aren’t after a Pullman restaurant - which is a limited service in terms of numbers of seats - they want a comfortable seat and a decent buffet service. The seats in the 80x and a lukewarm mobile urn/trolley are woefully inadequate for the south west, and represent a huge backward step. No amount of protesting from you changes that.

 

[Master29]

I didn't know there were TOC reviews on Tripadvisor, but yes, they do seem to have received a vitriolic slating. Particularly the seats in both classes, but also the ride. The most annoying thing is that with better seats and a nicer interior scheme (think TPE) they would probably not be anywhere near as badly regarded.

Well, I guess Flybe will be kept in business, and there won't be an overcrowding issue...

It`s funny you mention Flybe being kept in business. I was thinking now might be the perfect time for a London or Northern cities to Newquay airline in competition with Flybe who seem to have such a poor reputation at the moment. I`ve never had any complaints but I know many that have. Judging by how poor and expensive GWR is, I`m surprised to be honest that there aren`t more services to Newquay given the price difference which is negligible and certainly cheaper than first even on an advance and that`s not booked weeks in advance like GWR either.

Back to the 800`s though. I entirely agree that given better interiors they would be find. I don`t dislike the 800`s. Just their interiors.

 

[irish_rail]

At the minute the only reason the splitting and joining works is there is a dedicated fitter on every single one at Plymouth. For example I have had problems joining and the fitter just said it will be fine. Once it's almost every train doing this the delays will soon rack up.....
Splitting and joining at Plymouth IS far more complex than at oxford due to the layout of the station and nature of ECS moves to and from Laira. A total recipe for disaster compared to oxford where the moves to and from the sidings are far far simpler.
At the end of the day there WILL be delays but as GWR management don't seem to concerned about the service on the south west line, life will move on and I'm sure the 4 trains per hour to bristol will be a roaring success and that's all that matters to GWR and the daft.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The situation at Bournemouth and at either Oxford or Swindon is different. At Bournemouth the part that was in the carriage siding is unlikely to be delayed in returning to the platform and, most importantly, it has no passengers in it.

I have it on good authority that some 10 years ago Stuart Baker (the 'Great Cartographer' at the DfT) proposed this form of operation at Swindon so the direct Gloucester and Cheltenham services could be intensified by portion working off Bristol services. (His concepts for such a mode of operation are the reason that so many 5-car Class 80Xs have been ordered for issue to gWr). His proposals could work in the Down direction but as railway staff pointed out at the time there were enormous potential difficulties in the Up direction:

• the front portion arrives on time, but the rear is 20, 30 or 40 minutes late. What do you do?
  • Hold the passengers in the front portion for 40 minutes to await the arrival of the delayed section? Or tip them out to take their chance on the next train calling there? They are likely to be miffed - after all their train was on time.
  • The driver of the front portion is rostered to take the whole train on to London. The driver of the rear portion has another working, if he/she now takes the delayed train on to London how do you staff his or her's next working?
  • What happens when the front portion reaches London by itself? It can of course use its scheduled platform but how do you deal with the second part arriving 40 minutes later? Do you block the platform until the second part arrives and couples up? If so what do you do with the trains that were scheduled to use the platform in the meantime remembering that in peak times trains turn round in 20 minutes or so?
• similarly if the rear portion arrives on time, but the front is delayed? It probably doesn't matter in which order the units are connected, but seat reservations, for example, would be all over the place. (No change there, then!)

As far as I am aware there are no longer any proposals to split and join trains at Swindon.

You’re absolutely right! When I first clapped eyes on the Masterplan devised by “The Great Cartographer”, I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. There were split and joins all over the GW main line and the assumptions about how these services would be pathed was, how shall I say, a bit optimistic.

We needed someone who could unpick the timetable whilst I got to work on the diagrams. There was only one man who I thought could do it but he worked for Go-Ahead. GWR directors had the same thought and we nicked the sadly now late Roger Watkins back to the Western to put it all right. In service split and joins would be now mainly confined to Bristol with a very few at Oxford and Swansea. When the south west services came into the picture it would be just Plymouth with a few at Exeter.

Is the catering adequate on the 5 cars, 9 cars or 10 cars? Absolutely not. I am used to BR ECML or Anglia Railways/Hull Trains levels of catering, especially for first class and what is being offered by GWR is meagre gruel in comparison, albeit with occasional flashes of Pullman brilliance. With that Kitchen in an 800 you can do so much and frankly in an 800, an occasional pass of a trolley with some poor jug coffee doesn’t cut it. It seems as if someone just wants to replicate the existing basic trolley service on an HST without upping the quality to compensate for the loss of the buffet car.

Coupled with the lack of quality in the first class seat offer, it means GWR is charging a fair sum over the standard fare, for what exactly? If you are sitting in a first class seat from London to Plymouth, what are you getting for your money. A quieter ambiance perhaps, but then what? That’s the challenge for GWR, how to really take these sets, given the constraint of not altering the inside configuration and try to make a proper job of them by upping the service offer.

 

[fgwrich]

People aren’t after a Pullman restaurant - which is a limited service in terms of numbers of seats - they want a comfortable seat and a decent buffet service. The seats in the 80x and a lukewarm mobile urn/trolley are woefully inadequate for the south west, and represent a huge backward step. No amount of protesting from you changes that.

Nail hit firmly on the head with this post. Time and time again, I have been on both 9 and 5 car where the trolley cannot get through. It, like Cross Country or SW services ends up marooned at one end of the train, usually the closest to First. Which rather defeats the supposed benefits that the trolley is supposed to bring.

I also agree with the comments provided by @Clarence Yard with regards to catering. I still feel that, at least on the 9 cars, the GW units should have been built with a Mini Buffet set up akin to the East Coast sets. There are plenty of opportunities to actually make something with what we have, but GWR seems stuck stubborn with what we now have - the abysmal trolley. On the subject of Catering and First Class, I caught a few services back from Padd last week and ended up having a chat with the staff as I usually do on each of them. On the first night it was a HST - Buffet Staff happy, Train Manager Happy, First Class passengers happy. The second and third night, I travelled back around the same time (IET). On the third, it was an IET with a Pullman. Again, I spoke to the the staff and the passengers. Yes they enjoyed the Pullman (A niche service but), again, the same comments cropped up on both 2nd and 3rd nights - the lack of quality in First Class and the frustrations by the staff. Note I was travelling pass back on 2 of them and standard on another. The point still stands however, they are being deemed inadequate by the fare paying passengers that use them, whether they travel in standard or first.

*Abysmal compared to the offering of the Larger Express Cafe in a 402/407/408/409XX buffet or that of the smaller Express Cafe in a 401XX mini buffet.

 

[fgwrich]

Something else that has also cropped up in conversations recently - Luggage space. Over Christmas, it was poor. I understand that it was that much of a concern that an MML Style solution has been talked about with a larger luggage rack placed further within the coach. I would genuinely be interested to see / hear other members views on this. Having witnessed an argument developing between passengers this week over the double booking of the "Mixed Luggage / Cycle" space this week, is this an area that needs to be reviewed and addressed?

 

[Master29]

Another gripe is that there are 2 kitchens on ten car trains that do virtually nothing on almost all journeys, except of course provide Pullman dining which exists on only small % of services. That`s almost an entire carriage and an extra diesel engine doing nothing. How is that more versatile than a buffet car on both an IET or HST? Another reason for more 9 car trains. At least LNER will be using their kitchens. There is still no explanation as to why the LNER sets have buffets and the GWR don`t. All I here is it`s because the DaFT specify it or it takes up 16 extra seat spaces; neither of which cut satisfactory reasons. Remember, there are 70 fewer standard seats on Azumas.

 

[Master29]

Something else that has also cropped up in conversations recently - Luggage space. Over Christmas, it was poor. I understand that it was that much of a concern that an MML Style solution has been talked about with a larger luggage rack placed further within the coach. I would genuinely be interested to see / hear other members views on this. Having witnessed an argument developing between passengers this week over the double booking of the "Mixed Luggage / Cycle" space this week, is this an area that needs to be reviewed and addressed?

To be fair, I had thought that the overhead racks were very good and able to take a reasonable sized suitcase. Not much help if you`re not able to reach of course but a plus I suppose..

 

[coppercapped]

Another gripe is that there are 2 kitchens on ten car trains that do virtually nothing on almost all journeys, except of course provide Pullman dining which exists on only small % of services. That`s almost an entire carriage and an extra diesel engine doing nothing. How is that more versatile than a buffet car on both an IET or HST? Another reason for more 9 car trains. At least LNER will be using their kitchens. There is still no explanation as to why the LNER sets have buffets and the GWR don`t. All I here is it`s because the DaFT specify it or it takes up 16 extra seat spaces; neither of which cut satisfactory reasons. Remember, there are 70 fewer standard seats on Azumas.

It has been explained many times previously - the trains and their interiors supplied through the IEP contracts were specified in minute detail by the DfT.
The contract for the supply of trains is between the DfT and Agility Trains (West) for gWr and between the DfT and Agility Trains (East) for the LNER. The TOCs are not involved.
Any changes to the trains - signs, buffets, seats, colour schemes, etc. - have to be agreed by the DfT and its contract with the Agility Trains companies changed accordingly. It took a year between gWr wanting to add 'Quiet Coach' signs and the signs being applied.

The IEP trains are issued to gWr and LNER and these TOCs have to make the best of it.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You could set up a pseudo-buffet point in the train with a strategically placed trolley, which then could go back to the Kitchen for refilling. That doesn’t stop another trolley going through the train. But it needs staff, it needs organisation and it needs a will to do it.

I don’t see in GWR senior management (which I do not belong or work to) any lack of concern for the South West. Going 9 car straight away or going for the Cornish half hourly was a real decision to make because you wouldn’t get both. At least you could go from 5 to 9 when demand dictated and the Cornish half hourly was seen to be a one shot deal to get out of the DfT. Also the Long Rock Depot constraints as well as the cost of an all 9 car fleet played a part.

Coupling the sets up can’t be done in the time “The Great Cartographer” said because the GW ATP doesn’t let you but it shouldn’t be a big issue, providing the kit is reliable and you are doing it on level track. The latter is often forgotten and Plymouth is an area of concern because of what the Turbo clearance surveys have uncovered.

Portion working and operating without a fixed buffet car is a different way of doing things but you have to really work to get it right. We can’t retreat into the past but we need actually make something of the new and that needs proper organisation so that the people on the ground aren’t picking up the tab for the shortcomings of others.

 

[Goldfish62]

Another gripe is that there are 2 kitchens on ten car trains that do virtually nothing on almost all journeys, except of course provide Pullman dining which exists on only small % of services. That`s almost an entire carriage and an extra diesel engine doing nothing. How is that more versatile than a buffet car on both an IET or HST? Another reason for more 9 car trains. At least LNER will be using their kitchens. There is still no explanation as to why the LNER sets have buffets and the GWR don`t. All I here is it`s because the DaFT specify it or it takes up 16 extra seat spaces; neither of which cut satisfactory reasons. Remember, there are 70 fewer standard seats on Azumas.

Yes, and while we all know that DfT was primarily responsible for the specification of the trains it doesn't excuse GWR for the lamentable way in which they have approached the catering offer. It's been 18 months since their introduction and still no sign of the promised hot food from the trolleys.

And then there's the effective exclusion of Cornwall passengers from dining when a 2x5 splits at Plymouth or your booked seat happens to be in the "wrong" portion. This undoubtedly results in lost revenue, which brings into question the whole future of Pullman dining.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then there's the effective exclusion of Cornwall passengers from dining when a 2x5 splits at Plymouth or your booked seat happens to be in the "wrong" portion. This undoubtedly results in lost revenue, which brings into question the whole future of Pullman dining.

Surely the Pullman Dining would be in the long distance portion, not the Plymouth portion?

 

[404250]

I'd prefer an extra load of seats than any type of catering. Taking up that much space isn't justified, especially the amount on 5/10 car trains. Trolleys are used by very few people, take up staff and space, and often block the way through and make lots of noise. Why not just buy what you need before you board? There could be a self services water cooler somewhere in the train for emergency thirsts.