East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[Robertj21a]

No, not yet. But this deal for the 180's has been agreed irrespective of the operator. The decision to take the HST's off the MML by December 31st will stand whether its Abellio, Stagecoach or anybody else.

Are you quite certain about that ?

 

[Burgerstahl]

My understanding was that East Midlands had received assurance from the DfT that HSTs would be granted dispensation, the word derogation was specifically not used, until new stock was ready. Sounds like someone has realised that allowing such a dispensation for maybe 4 years was too long and the bullet has been bitten. Shame all the prevarication around electrification has brought us to this.

Stagecoach and Arriva may be better out of this as the good times look to be some time ahead.

Maybe the HST’s will indeed get a derogation, but to run on the ECML...
I guess if all the 180’s went to East Midlands and all the EMT HSTs went the other way then a similar service to today’s could be provided.
(With less seats and the extra cancellations from the associated 180 failures).
If true, it’s just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[talltim]

Best left to LNER via the ECML I think.

All very well if you want get to London, less useful for Leeds to intermediate MML stations

 

[Killingworth]

I can't see brand new units specified, tendered, built and available to operate in service by 2022, or maybe 2023 either. Can anyone believe that's likely after all the delays on stock ordered for every recent newly awarded franchise?

Abellio are having problems enough with HSTs in Scotland so won't be looking for more. If the refurbishments had been decided on earlier we could have had more compliant HSTs and avoided this issue - an issue we've wished on ourselves by setting the 2019 deadline.

 

[talltim]

Your broad red line is really helpful to a blind person...

Or someone looking for the restaurant car...

 

[NoMorePacers]

The DfT needs a really big purging at this point in time.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't see brand new units specified, tendered, built and available to operate in service by 2022, or maybe 2023 either. Can anyone believe that's likely after all the delays on stock ordered for every recent newly awarded franchise?

Abellio are having problems enough with HSTs in Scotland so won't be looking for more. If the refurbishments had been decided on earlier we could have had more compliant HSTs and avoided this issue - an issue we've wished on ourselves by setting the 2019 deadline.

On the contrary, there are a lot of issues with a lot of stock manufacturers, but Hitatchi doesn't seem to have any difficulty churning out the new bi-modes. With GW already done and testing underway on the ECML, it wouldn't surprise me if the Midland Mainline fleet arrived early.

 

[whhistle]

If the refurbishments had been decided on earlier we could have had more compliant HSTs and avoided this issue - an issue we've wished on ourselves by setting the 2019 deadline.

Hasn't this been known for many years?
And the TOCs didn't pressure the leasing companies to get on and change them?

As someone else pointed out, Stagecoach clearly wasn't going to spend money on leasing new trains during their management contract. If they lost the bid in the beginning, the HST problem would have been someone else's. If they won, they could have ordered new trains by now.

A date is a date.
By not having it, nobody will do anything about the problem as there's no pressure to do so.
Although it seems even by having a date, nobody did anything anyway!
(Yes, I understand how slow upgrading the MK3s is and why. Makes me wonder whether in the end, it would've been cheaper to develop a new loco that would work with the MK5s).

 

[Killingworth]

On the contrary, there are a lot of issues with a lot of stock manufacturers, but Hitatchi doesn't seem to have any difficulty churning out the new bi-modes. With GW already done and testing underway on the ECML, it wouldn't surprise me if the Midland Mainline fleet arrived early.

I hope you're right, but in the meantime heaven only knows what temporary arrangements will be needed until the new fleets are fully operational.

 

[yorksrob]

Hasn't this been known for many years?
And the TOCs didn't pressure the leasing companies to get on and change them?

As someone else pointed out, Stagecoach clearly wasn't going to spend money on leasing new trains during their management contract. If they lost the bid in the beginning, the HST problem would have been someone else's. If they won, they could have ordered new trains by now.

A date is a date.
By not having it, nobody will do anything about the problem as there's no pressure to do so.
Although it seems even by having a date, nobody did anything anyway!
(Yes, I understand how slow upgrading the MK3s is and why. Makes me wonder whether in the end, it would've been cheaper to develop a new loco that would work with the MK5s).

We have new compliant trains coming on line on most of the mainlines already. On this route the new trains have already been ordered. The deadline has already done its job.

Why subject MML passengers to two years of unnecessary cancellations and short forms.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Why subject MML passengers to two years of unnecessary cancellations and short forms.

I have to admit I'm sceptical about these latest revelations about compete HST fleet withdrawal by end of 2019.

In this time of DfT micromanagement, would anyone decide to do this given...
1: DfT ordering EMT to tender for limited PRM updates for the HST fleet as reported in Rail
2: DfT putting this on their website:
"...from May 2020, modern diesel trains will begin to replace aging HSTs. Timetable changes will enable faster journey times from December 2020"

 

[yorksrob]

I hope you're right, but in the meantime heaven only knows what temporary arrangements will be needed until the new fleets are fully operational.

If this lunacy is allowed to stand, it looks like the temporary 'arrangements' will be multiple year long short forms and frequent cancellations.

Lucky passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about these latest revelations about compete HST fleet withdrawal by end of 2019.

In this time of DfT micromanagement, would anyone decide to do this given...
1: DfT ordering EMT to tender for limited PRM updates for the HST fleet as reported in Rail
2: DfT putting this on their website:
"...from May 2020, modern diesel trains will begin to replace aging HSTs. Timetable changes will enable faster journey times from December 2020"

I certainly hope you're right to be sceptical. Unfortunately, in this day and age, you never know. It seemed unlikely enough that the 180's were going to come over in the first place.

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely they must realise that this dreadful botch (if true) will be far worse than even a longer than expected derogation for the HST's ?

Plus, realistically four years would have been unlikely, with new trains coming in in 2022.

For those such as MP's that have agitated for this move, well done for screwing up.

The core HST fleet isn't getting a derogation, but is instead being made PRM compliant

 

[Burgerstahl]

I have to admit I'm sceptical about these latest revelations about compete HST fleet withdrawal by end of 2019.

In this time of DfT micromanagement, would anyone decide to do this given...
1: DfT ordering EMT to tender for limited PRM updates for the HST fleet as reported in Rail
2: DfT putting this on their website:
"...from May 2020, modern diesel trains will begin to replace aging HSTs. Timetable changes will enable faster journey times from December 2020"

I also hope you’re right to be sceptical, but

1. The DfT might still intend to temporarily use HSTs on the East Coast
2. A Class 180 probably is a “modern diesel train” to the DfT

 

[yorksrob]

The core HST fleet isn't getting a derogation, but is instead being made PRM compliant

Then that is very good news indeed. If that's the case though, what are they doing with the doors ?

 

[cactustwirly]

Then that is very good news indeed. If that's the case though, what are they doing with the doors ?

Last I heard they were keeping the slam doors, but with extra staff around the accessible loos etc, to help with doors, which apparently makes them PRM compliant

 

[yorksrob]

Last I heard they were keeping the slam doors, but with extra staff around the accessible loos etc, to help with doors, which apparently makes them PRM compliant

Sounds like a sensible workaround.

Let's just hope that someone hasn't gone and changed their mind.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sounds like a sensible workaround.

The Angel six HSTs aren't being modded, and are getting dumped at the May 2020 timetable change

 

[Killingworth]

There would be nothing to stop leasing companies from selecting the HST stock that's in best condition and having a few units made fully compliant ready to cover inevitable shortages across the network, at their expense. Slight snag, Wabtec have a full order book on that until at least early 2020. But from then they have experienced production lines free that could do the work. Heretical thought for another thread!

 

[yorksrob]

The Angel six HSTs aren't being modded, and are getting dumped at the May 2020 timetable change

They can be replaced a lot more manageably than trying to ditch the core fleet at the same time (though if it was up to me, I'd wait until the Corby 222's were available).

 

[hwl]

I can't see brand new units specified, tendered, built and available to operate in service by 2022, or maybe 2023 either. Can anyone believe that's likely after all the delays on stock ordered for every recent newly awarded franchise?

Abellio are having problems enough with HSTs in Scotland so won't be looking for more. If the refurbishments had been decided on earlier we could have had more compliant HSTs and avoided this issue - an issue we've wished on ourselves by setting the 2019 deadline.

And that is why DfT asked EMT to start the procurement programme (for their successors) a year ago!

 

[Killingworth]

And that is why DfT asked EMT to start the procurement programme (for their successors) a year ago!

And may have given them an assurance that they'd be able to continue operating HSTs unless anything better could be made available. Seemingly 180s are to be made available and are better. Compliant certainly, available perhaps, but how much better in practice remains to be seen.

 

[HST43277]

Let’s just hope that the DFT, think carefully before replacing trains which will have a major effect on the midland mainline, at peak times, the fleet already struggles to cope so they need to make sure they replace trains with like for like capacity or risk losing passengers and getting a bad press as well. I feel for their staff on the frontline. I can’t see how they can replace all hsts in less than a year it’s just not feasible and with no new stock ordered it’s going to be an interesting few years for this franchise!

 

[hwl]

And may have given them an assurance that they'd be able to continue operating HSTs unless anything better could be made available. Seemingly 180s are to be made available and are better. Compliant certainly, available perhaps, but how much better in practice remains to be seen.

Agreed and not enough of the either.

 

[hwl]

Let’s just hope that the DFT, think carefully before replacing trains which will have a major effect on the midland mainline, at peak times, the fleet already struggles to cope so they need to make sure they replace trains with like for like capacity or risk losing passengers and getting a bad press as well. I feel for their staff on the frontline. I can’t see how they can replace all hsts in less than a year it’s just not feasible and with no new stock ordered it’s going to be an interesting few years for this franchise!

Except they aren't going to replace all HSTs in less than a year, they are going to **START** to replace them by May 2020 in DfT own words, a very big difference. Starting to replace them involves a smattering of 180s and some 222s cascaded when Corby get electrified. Total replacement in 2023.

 

[HST43277]

Just going by this earlier post

180's confirmed. Don't have all the details but ALL HST's to go by the end of the year....

 

[fgwrich]

Last I heard they were keeping the slam doors, but with extra staff around the accessible loos etc, to help with doors, which apparently makes them PRM compliant

Think Great Anglia Mk3 - That's the scope of work to be carried out to the core EMT HST fleet. New toilets and some internal mods but retaining the slam doors.

 

[atraindriver]

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[atraindriver]

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