Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Railperf]

That video does highlight one of the "slow doors" issues that could hopefully get a relatively easy software fix - the buttons don't enable until a fair time after the "release sound".

Yes the doors are slow to open and close compared to District line days. I always recall the sound of some kind of air release when the doors opened or closed.

It has four diesel engined power packs. So hopefully more than 1 or 2...

Does anyone know if the engines are designed to be cut in and out to lower fuel consumption and wear and tear?

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know if the engines are designed to be cut in and out to lower fuel consumption and wear and tear?

I think it’s stated somewhere that they have a stop start system for cutting the time idling at stations, but haven’t heard it mentioned that they automatically cut in and out when moving, in the way the TPE 185s do.

 

[HLE]

It's said the most wear is done to an engine on start up, my stop start is always isolated!

 

[Struner]

It's said the most wear is done to an engine on start up, my stop start is always isolated!

That's quite right.

 

[supervc-10]

Only if the engine is cold and isn't designed for start/stop. There are Prius taxis which have start stop with mileages right up into the 300k region without any drivetrain issues. The cabin will be trashed, but the engine is fine. Part of that is just general Toyota bulletproof mechanicals, but those engines will have been through hundreds of thousands of starts with no ill effects.

The wear occurs because the parts aren't coated in oil. Once it's running and isn't too cold, then it's no issue. I believe that VivaRail are using the 3.2 diesel that Ford put in the Ranger pickup. Which I'd assume has stop/start, so it would make sense to utilise that.

 

[kieron]

I can see why TfW wanted to stick them on Chester - Crewe but that can't happen unless VivaRail find a way of eking 15mph out of them.

15mph? It would be better if it was 30, as then they could reach line speed. I'm sure someone has worked out how they'd fit into the timetable with minimal disruption, but I don't know how they've done it.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Only if the engine is cold and isn't designed for start/stop. There are Prius taxis which have start stop with mileages right up into the 300k region without any drivetrain issues. The cabin will be trashed, but the engine is fine. Part of that is just general Toyota bulletproof mechanicals, but those engines will have been through hundreds of thousands of starts with no ill effects.

The wear occurs because the parts aren't coated in oil. Once it's running and isn't too cold, then it's no issue. I believe that VivaRail are using the 3.2 diesel that Ford put in the Ranger pickup. Which I'd assume has stop/start, so it would make sense to utilise that.

The biggest issue with start stop in a car in my opinion is that you can't build the revs, dump and clutch and take of like a nutter. Also, the 3.2, at least in the Ford Ranger, does not have start stop thankfully.
On a train it will be useful as in a car know one (or at least me) cares about fuel economy whereas TOC's will most certainly care.

 

[anamyd]

It has four diesel engined power packs. So hopefully more than 1 or 2...

read as 3 or 4 (an engine was out)

 

[simple simon]

Whilst at Bedford a steam engine passed by - short film on twitter.
This made for quite a contrast

I liked the train, and its new format.

https://twitter.com/citytransportin/status/1121531209161564160

 

[LOL The Irony]

15mph? It would be better if it was 30, as then they could reach line speed. I'm sure someone has worked out how they'd fit into the timetable with minimal disruption, but I don't know how they've done it.

60+15 is 75. The top speed of the 150's that operate on there is 75.

 

[edwin_m]

Given a possession on a long, straight, level or downhill section of track I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 230 "do the ton". The 60mph limit isn't because the units can't get to a higher speed, it's due to things like having smaller wheels than most mainline stock- which makes higher speeds less efficient. Higher speeds also require improved braking capability and presumably structural strength.

Smaller wheels means more track impact forces for the same axle load. I would also be a bit doubtful about the rubber suspension on the bogies at higher speeds. The fact Vivarail have offered all sorts of interesting propulsion options, but not a higher top speed that would make it suitable for a whole range of other duties, suggests to me that a higher speed is impossible unless with modifications that would be prohibitively espensive.

 

[anamyd]

Only if the engine is cold and isn't designed for start/stop. There are Prius taxis which have start stop with mileages right up into the 300k region without any drivetrain issues. The cabin will be trashed, but the engine is fine. Part of that is just general Toyota bulletproof mechanicals, but those engines will have been through hundreds of thousands of starts with no ill effects.

The wear occurs because the parts aren't coated in oil. Once it's running and isn't too cold, then it's no issue. I believe that VivaRail are using the 3.2 diesel that Ford put in the Ranger pickup. Which I'd assume has stop/start, so it would make sense to utilise that.

yes the 3.2L 5-cylinder 200PS Ford Duratorq (two per car) from the Ranger, and also "optional" in the biggest Transit.

 

[kieron]

60+15 is 75. The top speed of the 150's that operate on there is 75.

Meanwhile, the top speed of the 158s which operate on the line is 90mph, of the 175s is 100mph and of the 221s is 125mph.

I'm at a bit of a loss, though. What significance does the top speed of a 150 have to you? whhistle talked about the 230s filling a gap well, but it would hardly be doing that if it meant every passenger had to spend several minutes longer on a train than they would if TfW had used a different train instead.

I think that's why it has only been talked about as a stopgap thing there.

 

[507 001]

Meanwhile, the top speed of the 158s which operate on the line is 90mph, of the 175s is 100mph and of the 221s is 125mph.

I'm at a bit of a loss, though. What significance does the top speed of a 150 have to you? whhistle talked about the 230s filling a gap well, but it would hardly be doing that if it meant every passenger had to spend several minutes longer on a train than they would if TfW had used a different train instead.

I think that's why it has only been talked about as a stopgap thing there.

The Crewe-Chester shuttles are generally operated by 150s. Therefore 75mph is what’s needed.

 

[big all]

higher speeds = higher gearing and lower excelleration rates overall and reduced efficiency over lower average speeds
where as lower geared means more efficient at lower average speeds and less efficient at the higher end

 

[Phlip]

we should have names for them for sure!!!!!!

paula radcliffe
tim foster
john bunyan

..please enter bletchleys alumni here for nomination
alan turing has got to be up there

Greg Rutherford, surely??

 

[edwin_m]

The Crewe-Chester shuttles are generally operated by 150s. Therefore 75mph is what’s needed.

The route only carries 2TPH so if the shuttle takes a couple of minutes longer it is unlikely to get in the way of anything else. However the turnaround could be getting a bit tight for one unit to run an hourly service.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Well most shuttles are timed at 23 minutes and a 150 can do it in 20. So I'm guessing they can maintain 2tph even at 60.

 

[swt_passenger]

read as 3 or 4 (an engine was out)

I know that. You should read the post I was replying to...

 

[DarloRich]

we should have names for them for sure!!!!!!

paula radcliffe
tim foster
john bunyan

..please enter bletchleys alumni here for nomination
alan turing has got to be up there

It will be John Bunyan and Alan Turing/Blethcley Park I should expect. However I have seen Gregg Rutherford use the chugs on many occasions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be John Bunyan and Alan Turing/Blethcley Park I should expect. However I have seen Gregg Rutherford use the chugs on many occasions.

I've seen him running in Brickhill Woods before.

It's good that we're getting 230 003, 004 and 005 - presumably those are just chugs 3, 4 and 5?

I'd definitely like to see Turing feature, I am connected with him twofold - both by way of my current location and by way of being a graduate of Computer Science at Manchester University.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd definitely like to see Turing feature, I am connected with him twofold - both by way of my current location and by way of being a graduate of Computer Science at Manchester University.

personally I would like to see Tommy Flowers honored - he designed and built Colossus.

I am sure the name will in some way link with Blethcley Park. Bedford I am less sure about. It doesn't have much going for it compared with the location where the war was won and western liberal democracy saved!

 

[Bletchleyite]

personally I would like to see Tommy Flowers honored - he designed and built Colossus.

He of course also has the Manchester connection!

As a slight aside, if this marketing approach all proves successful, should a Class 319 (one of the Standard only ones perhaps) be dedicated to the Snorbens branch and branded up similarly, together with a "local hero" name?

 

[DarloRich]

As a slight aside, if this marketing approach all proves successful, should a Class 319 (one of the Standard only ones perhaps) be dedicated to the Snorbens branch and branded up similarly, together with a "local hero" name?

why not! Francis Bacon? David Essex? John Motson?

 

[reddragon]

The biggest issue with start stop in a car in my opinion is that you can't build the revs, dump and clutch and take of like a nutter. Also, the 3.2, at least in the Ford Ranger, does not have start stop thankfully.
On a train it will be useful as in a car know one (or at least me) cares about fuel economy whereas TOC's will most certainly care.

Ah that's why my electric car leaves new fossil cars standing at the lights then!

 

[reddragon]

Meanwhile, the top speed of the 158s which operate on the line is 90mph, of the 175s is 100mph and of the 221s is 125mph.

.

And Concorde had a top speed of Mach 2.05, but would not be suitable!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

why not! Francis Bacon? David Essex? John Motson?

Jim Rodford (RIP) from Argent and The Zombies. Used to live down the from me. Absolute gent.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Did a little ride today on the 1001 from BY , deeply impressed with ambience, ride quality , and how quiet.

Said probably farewell to "Chug 1" , not long now I suspect before he/she finds a new home.

 

[supervc-10]

The biggest issue with start stop in a car in my opinion is that you can't build the revs, dump and clutch and take of like a nutter. Also, the 3.2, at least in the Ford Ranger, does not have start stop thankfully.
On a train it will be useful as in a car know one (or at least me) cares about fuel economy whereas TOC's will most certainly care.

I care about fuel economy in my car, I'm the one paying for the fuel after all!

Also- you absolutely can build revs, dump the clutch, and take off like a nutter if you like. If your foot is on the clutch, the engine will be turning. The stop/start only operates when the car is in neutral and the clutch pedal is released.

And according to Ford, the 3.2 does have start/stop, but only on the manual version.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And according to Ford, the 3.2 does have start/stop, but only on the manual version.

That's probably because it's easy to do on a manual and you have enough time - you just stop if the car is taken out of gear, and restart when the clutch is pressed with the car out of gear (as this will always result in enough of a delay for the engine to start). On an automatic there might not be enough time to restart when the user, particularly if they are using the "both feet" driving technique, floors the accelerator to get out of a junction and doesn't get power when they need it, causing an accident.

The solution for an auto is for it to be a hybrid - that instant acceleration comes from the electric motor, giving plenty of time to restart the engine before the battery runs out.