That's a terrible thing to do to a passenger though as it leaves them without the documentation they need to attempt to clear up the issue in the future. However, if the ticket was withdrawn by the guard, they should have a record of that and hence the OP should post the info from the web site he originally bought the ticket from so we can see what he bought...
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That's a terrible thing to do to a passenger though as it leaves them without the documentation they need to attempt to clear up the issue in the future. However, if the ticket was withdrawn by the guard, they should have a record of that and hence the OP should post the info from the web site he originally bought the ticket from so we can see what he bought...
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CarterUSM
Established Member
Freelance, does it say at the upper orange bar on the excess ticket, only valid with ticket xxxxx? I put x's in lieu of numbers of course.
CarterUSM
Established Member
Yes b0b, it's not particularly pleasant, but occasionally necessary. There's something not quite right about this whole affair, i'm of the opinion somebody has erred somewhere.
glynn80
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Well it could have just been that the route the original ticket was valid for was one that was of a higher price than the route the excess was for. If this was the case, the excess would be zero. An example of this would be say I held a St Helens Central to Southport SDR route Wigan and I wish to travel via Liverpool, I would be entitled to obtain a zero excess because the route Wigan fare is £10.60 whereas the SDR via Liverpool is only £5.45.
CarterUSM
Established Member
Of course, that thought had occured. But it will still show a zero fare that you have to explain on your shift sheet at the end of your shift. Although the example you give is more than acceptable it seems like a waste of time for the guard, unless they are doing their revenue duties to the letter.
Ok, I was more trying to figure out (a) what could possibly be excessed from Newcastle to Leeds that comes out to be 0, and (b) why the OP is now paying 90 quid for a ticket that has a value of 0.
Lots of things are still not adding up here.
freelance84
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Very funny.
I have been driving for 5years now and so far, touch wood, have never had any sort of ticket.
And with respect to the comment regarding "be carefull where you park", I was visiting friends and the parking outside their house is free.
Would I be wrong in recalling an article from FT not so long ago regarding something to do with east coast lines, something along the lines that they're going bust? How am I meant to be motivated now to use the trains again, they are more expensive than using the cars, more expensive than the busses and in some cases more expensive than the planes, not to mention the amount of inconvience they can cause.
I am writing a letter of apology for not paying the fine earlier but you can be rest assured my car will now be doing more miles.
However, I would like to thank everyone for the help you have given me.
Forums I believe are possibly one of the best products to come out of the internet.
I have been driving for 5years now and so far, touch wood, have never had any sort of ticket.
And with respect to the comment regarding "be carefull where you park", I was visiting friends and the parking outside their house is free.
Would I be wrong in recalling an article from FT not so long ago regarding something to do with east coast lines, something along the lines that they're going bust? How am I meant to be motivated now to use the trains again, they are more expensive than using the cars, more expensive than the busses and in some cases more expensive than the planes, not to mention the amount of inconvience they can cause.
I am writing a letter of apology for not paying the fine earlier but you can be rest assured my car will now be doing more miles.
However, I would like to thank everyone for the help you have given me.
Forums I believe are possibly one of the best products to come out of the internet.
CarterUSM
Established Member
I concur b0b. If that excess doesn't have a ticket number that pertains to an original then the original has been withdrawn for investigation, a zero fare issued and a ticket irregularity form completed and passed to revenue control. Otherwise, I just don't know what the hell has happened. 
We'd like to help you further if we can, can you post your booking details from the web site that sold you the tickets so we can see what you bought?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Re-reading the thread it sounds like
a) the OP posted the original receipt and the XS ticket
b) the guard on the Newcastle-York train questioned the validity of the ticket he held, and in the kerfuffle over the issue, the OP did not realize that the guard retained his original ticket and gave him a 0.00 XS ticket
which leaves one remaining question, what ticket did he originally hold, that cost 28.10? I sure can't find it on NFM04. We also know he traveled on a Friday, returning on a Sunday, this ruling out day returns.
I am trying to say that one bad experience - because you made a mistake - doesn't mean that you shouldn't travel by train in future. If you make similar mistakes on the road it can also be expensive (I was in the wrong lane on the M6, ended up on the toll road and it cost me £10+fuel just to turn around and go back again).
Just weigh up the benefits and be more careful in future! (as I shall)
I often travel across the pennines and almost always drive; the train is generally too slow, expensive, busy and incovenient. However, it would be complete madness for me to drive to London compared to the train!
BTW, this is a good site for trying to keep the costs down!
Eastcoast are now owned by the government, after National Express decided they couldn't make a profit out of it.
freelance84
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The £28.10 was the total fair with a YP railcard, bought from the trainline.com and collected from a ticket machine in leeds station.
I also did not sign the fine, does this not count for anything?
I also did not sign the fine, does this not count for anything?
can you get back on thetrainline.com and pull up the details of the transaction and post them?
the confusion we're having is that there is no 28.10 fare showing in avantix for a Leeds>Newcastle with YP.
glynn80
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b0b said:
Well there are two scenarios as I see it.
1) The guard made a series of errors including rejecting a perfectly valid ticket and not issuing a receipt and instead issuing a zero excess in its place.
2) The OP purchased some kind of Return fare to Newcastle, obtained an excess for this at a later date but in the period between obtaining the excess and travelling misplaced the Return portion of the ticket. The OP then wrongly assumed the excess alone would be valid and was duly given an Unpaid Fares Notice.
I have no idea which of the two actually occurred as we don't have enough information to judge, hopefully the OP can enlighten us on the contentious points of the story.
freelance84
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A std ticket to London from Leeds costs way more than the petrol. Also what is going to happen when petrol cars are no longer the common thing and electric or the fuel cell are? How will trains be able to compete, especially when they have already marginalised themselves?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have already said did I not, that when I phoned up thetrainline.com again they then told me the return ticket was only valid on the crosscountry trains. I did not realise this then and therefore the ticket conductor issued me this fine. The original return ticket is either in the hand of the conductor still or she has put it in the bin.
Eitherway it has turned out from someone spotting that the x/s ticket i uploaded was not the original, and me finding out i was only allowed to travel on crosscountry trains that i am indeed liable to pay the fine.
However i have found out that i can appeal against the £40 and ask for a value from newcastle to york.
Once again thanks for your assistance.
It is a bit different from Leeds, but with a railcard, you would need to be getting 34+mpg to do it cheaper in a car (without the parking charges!)
From Liverpool or Manchester, it's more like 45+ mpg - my car doesn't even do the 34.
For a journey which is (usually) less than half the time and a lot less stressful.
Maybe somebody could confirm if you should have been allowed to buy an Anytime single just to the next stop? As you were changing there anyway, I don't see why that would have been a problem.
From Liverpool or Manchester, it's more like 45+ mpg - my car doesn't even do the 34.
For a journey which is (usually) less than half the time and a lot less stressful.
Maybe somebody could confirm if you should have been allowed to buy an Anytime single just to the next stop? As you were changing there anyway, I don't see why that would have been a problem.
Freelance:
Do you have the original booking confirmation email or can you see your booking details this way via thetrainline.com? "All your booking details can be found online by logging into My Account and clicking on Check your order status."
From what I can tell, from Avantix Traveller NFM04, there were no XC only fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The only way I can get a total of 28.10
Leeds>Newcastle TPE Advance 12.55 Y-P
Newcastle>Leeds TPE Advance 12.55 Y-P
(1+3.50 = 4.50 trainline booking + cc fee), Y-P 1/3 off applied = 3
12.55+12.55+3=28.10 ?
does thetrainline discount their fees like that? if those were the tickets held, it explains why the ticket was rejected by NXEC at least
Do you have the original booking confirmation email or can you see your booking details this way via thetrainline.com? "All your booking details can be found online by logging into My Account and clicking on Check your order status."
From what I can tell, from Avantix Traveller NFM04, there were no XC only fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The only way I can get a total of 28.10
Leeds>Newcastle TPE Advance 12.55 Y-P
Newcastle>Leeds TPE Advance 12.55 Y-P
(1+3.50 = 4.50 trainline booking + cc fee), Y-P 1/3 off applied = 3
12.55+12.55+3=28.10 ?
does thetrainline discount their fees like that? if those were the tickets held, it explains why the ticket was rejected by NXEC at least
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freelance84
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It wouldn't have been a problem, any ticket conductor with an ounce of decancy would have agreed to charging me from Newcastle to York.
bOb,
I think from all this post it can be assumed the original did not say X/S on it. Who knows where that original now resides. The total amount paid on my emails states: 29.10 inc the £1 booking fee.
does the email show the ticket info, if so, post it please!!!!!! it is not impossible the guard made a mistake but without the original ticket info, we can not tell.
John @ home
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Found it!
Leeds - Newcastle route XC only fares did not exist when NFM 04 CD was published. At some time during the validity of NFM 04 they were introduced. To find them, go to NFM 05 CD and set the date for a few days before 2 January 2010. This shows
That figures. If you ever use a train again, don't use thetrainline. The individual train companies are not allowed to charge a booking fee, a credit card fee or a postal delivery fee.
Do we?
If you are on a train that is next stop York, then they cannot charge you beyond that station if you agree to get off there. Obviously if they catch you between Darlington and York, you still have to pay for York-Darlington as you did that part of the journey already. That is, of course, if they are charging you for a new ticket (Newcastle-York Anytime Single £26.40). However if they were excessing the ticket then the whole ticket must be excessed, but if you are on the wrong train company then an excess should not be offered.
A "XC only" should not be excessed into an Any Permitted, a new ticket would have to be purchased. A "Not Darlington" ticket can be excessed. Advance tickets should be excessed once the train has departed.
I'm deducing that from the tickets he did post. The first being the collection receipt on the 11th, and the XS he was apparently issued by the guard on the 13th .....
First class
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To me it seems that:
1) He refused to pay the excess fare, so a zero excess was issued as per the FRPP, the ticket withdrawn and an UFN issued....
2) His ticket was restricted to trains operated by a certain CrossCountry Only, and he decided to get a different TOC instead (East Coast?), (regardless of whether he knew the restriction or not).
or am I missing something here?
As you can't excess TOC specific tickets, the amount owing is that of the Full Single fare from wherever he boarded to wherever he got off... (plus the £10 admin).
1) He refused to pay the excess fare, so a zero excess was issued as per the FRPP, the ticket withdrawn and an UFN issued....
2) His ticket was restricted to trains operated by a certain CrossCountry Only, and he decided to get a different TOC instead (East Coast?), (regardless of whether he knew the restriction or not).
or am I missing something here?
As you can't excess TOC specific tickets, the amount owing is that of the Full Single fare from wherever he boarded to wherever he got off... (plus the £10 admin).
No excess should be issued surely? and the ticket should not be withdrawn if he isn't using it and is, instead, buying a new ticket?
Also it sounds like a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued - this is not correct practice.
I agree he should pay the full SOS fare from where he boarded to the next stop (Newcastle to York) although he may choose to pay the extra to get the SOS extended to the ultimate destination to avoid the hassle of getting another ticket at the interchange station, however there should be no extra admin fee! What on earth would a £10 admin fee be for?
I suspect we may be the only country in the world that penalises people more for having a ticket for the 'wrong' train than people who do not have any ticket. Does anyone know of any other country that has a similar policy?
Also it sounds like a ticket was withdrawn without a receipt being issued - this is not correct practice.
I agree he should pay the full SOS fare from where he boarded to the next stop (Newcastle to York) although he may choose to pay the extra to get the SOS extended to the ultimate destination to avoid the hassle of getting another ticket at the interchange station, however there should be no extra admin fee! What on earth would a £10 admin fee be for?
I suspect we may be the only country in the world that penalises people more for having a ticket for the 'wrong' train than people who do not have any ticket. Does anyone know of any other country that has a similar policy?
First class
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An admin fee is attached to all Unpaid Fares Notices. He refused to pay the fare there and then by his own choice. If he had paid up- he would have just been issued a new ticket, (or this guard might have even allowed him to get an excess).
The fact that the guard has to write a report, Revenue Protection spend time investigating the matter and somebody having to write a letter to him, and then deal with his complaint etc, £10 is probably quite generous really.
No matter what way you look at it, he was in the wrong. Had an invalid ticket- got a bit cocky, adamant that he was in the right and refused to pay for either an excess/new ticket.
As for how the guard persued this:
The ticket can be withdrawn. It is her property as an authorised agent of the TOC. However, a copy of an UFN would suffice, there is no specific requirement for a receipt if he has a UFN.
The fact that the guard has to write a report, Revenue Protection spend time investigating the matter and somebody having to write a letter to him, and then deal with his complaint etc, £10 is probably quite generous really.
No matter what way you look at it, he was in the wrong. Had an invalid ticket- got a bit cocky, adamant that he was in the right and refused to pay for either an excess/new ticket.
As for how the guard persued this:
The ticket can be withdrawn. It is her property as an authorised agent of the TOC. However, a copy of an UFN would suffice, there is no specific requirement for a receipt if he has a UFN.
It seems like there were mistakes on both sides here, so probably the OP should respond explaining that he feels that in this case he only owes the undiscounted SOS Newcastle-York fare of 26.40 + 10.00 admin fee, and enclose a cheque for 36.40, send it off recorded delivery and see if that settles the issue.
CarterUSM
Established Member
I'm with first class on this one, i've suspected this since I had a look at the tickets that were scanned. Obviously not the specific circumstances of how or why it happened. Just the fact that it was a zero excess and the OP's explanation of billing. It's unfortunate for him nonetheless, a harsh lesson even.
this is all speculation and doesn't help at all.
You can't say how he behaved to the guard, nor can you know if he knew the ticket was invalid for the train he was on.
If you thought you had a valid ticket, you would be non too pleased to be asked for 40 quid (which is more than he paid for the ticket in the first place) and I believe the advice is to take the UFN rather than pay and try and get a refund.
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