Food & Drink on the railway

[8J]

I've been having a look over the design and images of the new fleets for Transpennine Express and they appear to have a galley located behind the drivers cab at the first class end. The promotional videos from CAF appear to feature merrychef style ovens in the galley which is making me wonder what plans they have for catering? It obviously must include some hot food options...

 

[Mojo]

no, it's a UK thing. It's not like this in any other Western European country I've been to!

I've found things in Europe significantly more expensive than the UK in general. British railway stations and airports seem to be considerably cheaper than abroad even allowing for the fact that stuff abroad seems to cost more too.

 

[Iskra]

I spent a few days working at London Bridge during its reconstruction and Network Rail apparently charge £30k rent a month for a small retail unit there.

That sounds right. I’m aware of a small unit at a major station in Yorkshire going for £16k per month. That’s a lot of coffee/sausage rolls/bottles of water you need to shift to recover that...

 

[thenorthern]

Monopolies exist on the train for refreshments meaning if you don't want to pay you don't get it.

Also the rent for shops in stations is quite high which ups the costs, also many are open long hours which ups the costs as not many people go to WH Smiths at 5:30 am. Also shops on stations are not the easiest things to deliver to.

With Motorway services I was told one of the reasons they are expensive is they have to be open 24 hours, have to provide 2 hours of free parking and have to provide food and coffee in some form 24 hours per day all of which add up.

 

[Master29]

Supply and demand , a euphemism for rip off merchants but of course we don`t have to pay those prices.

 

[Bald Rick]

I spent a few days working at London Bridge during its reconstruction and Network Rail apparently charge £30k rent a month for a small retail unit there.

I’m surprised it’s that cheap. When you’re selling 1000 cups of hot flavoured water, and 400 pastries a day for £2-3 each that cost 20p, it’s still great profit.

If you think stations are expensive here, try and get food or drink in Geneva airport.

 

[sharpley]

I’m surprised it’s that cheap. When you’re selling 1000 cups of hot flavoured water, and 400 pastries a day for £2-3 each that cost 20p, it’s still great profit.

If you think stations are expensive here, try and get food or drink in Geneva airport.

I think the £30k pm at London Bridge was just for a coffee shop outlet / kiosk type thing. Wonder what the rent on something like a Weatherspoons at St Pancras would cost. These retail outlets have guaranteed passing business for 20 hours a day, 7 days a week so obviously must be lucrative even with these rents.

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s a great story, which I heard third hand (so may well be true) about a chap who used to sell coffee and croissants from a barrow outside Highbury & Islington each morning about 10 years ago. He was paying token rent (£5k a year or something) and whichever railway company managed the site did a covert check on his trade. He bought the croissants / pastries from a nearby Supermarket at opening time for 50p each, and sold them at £1.50. And then sold coffee and tea at the usual mark up. The ‘observers’ watched him take around £1000 each morning. Allowing for rent and costs, and assuming he was scrupulously honest about a largely cash income and paid all his taxes (VAT, income tax, NI), he was clearing well over £100k a year. Not bad for working half a day.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the £30k pm at London Bridge was just for a coffee shop outlet / kiosk type thing. Wonder what the rent on something like a Weatherspoons at St Pancras would cost. These retail outlets have guaranteed passing business for 20 hours a day, 7 days a week so obviously must be lucrative even with these rents.

Well I would be telling trade secrets if I told you how much

However it’s no secret to say that rents also include a %age of takings. This is common across many high volume sites, especially stations, airports etc.

What I do know, though, is that even the busiest, most lucrative stations don’t earn rent anything like as much as Heathrow.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Motorway service stations tend to be remote(ish) locations, they have to get water and electric to them, and sewage away from them. This costs a lot to put the infrastructure in place. This has to be recovered.
Service stations are not allowed to advertise, nor are they allowed to be destinations in their own right. So they can only attract passing traffic (literally!)
They don’t shift huge quantities so can’t buy stuff as cheaply as supermarkets, as they simply don’t buy the quantity.
On both services and train stations, most outlets are franchised. There’s one company who owns most of them, many companies (M&S and McDonalds and Subway in particular) insist that the same prices are charged for the same item, regardless of where it’s purchased. Other companies (KFC, Burger King) allow different prices for at least some items. Greggs does too, but too a much lesser extent, but you will find slight variations in a few Greggs prices.
Most train station and service stations make very small profits though. The high prices aren’t greed, but necessity for them.
Of course, the flip side is, are supermarkets actually too cheap? The reason we feel these places are dear is because we compare them to supermarket prices.

 

[Bald Rick]

On both services and train stations, most outlets are franchised. There’s one company who owns most of them, many companies (M&S and McDonalds and Subway in particular) insist that the same prices are charged for the same item, regardless of where it’s purchased.

I’m going to have to correct you on this.

Most service stations (and stations for that matter) that have branches of M&S are not actually owned or operated by M&S. They are run by SSP (formerly Compass group), who also own and run Ritazza, Upper Crust, Cornish Pasty co., etc etc.

And, at least for M&S, you will find prices are higher in stations / services, than on the high street. Certainly the salad I sometimes buy from M&S is about 10% more at the station, compared to the main branch 200 yards away. You’ll find that the SSP outlets often have pink barcodes, which is a clue...

 

[Iskra]

I’m going to have to correct you on this.

Most service stations (and stations for that matter) that have branches of M&S are not actually owned or operated by M&S. They are run by SSP (formerly Compass group), who also own and run Ritazza, Upper Crust, Cornish Pasty co., etc etc.

And, at least for M&S, you will find prices are higher in stations / services, than on the high street. Certainly the salad I sometimes buy from M&S is about 10% more at the station, compared to the main branch 200 yards away. You’ll find that the SSP outlets often have pink barcodes, which is a clue...

Train station outlets are generally franchises, often run by SSP, who have to pay a fee to the brand. Apart from Greggs and Costa (although there are exceptions).

Service stations are also franchises but usually the franchise is run and owned by the service stations themselves. E.g a service station M&S is a Moto franchise, not SSP.

 

[Re 4/4]

If you think stations are expensive here, try and get food or drink in Geneva airport.

If it's still there, the Migros one level above the station always used to be reasonably priced if you went into the actual shop rather than buy from the convenience counter at the front.

 

[DarloRich]

Hi,

Why is food and drink so dear on the train and at stations?

It’s almost as bad as at airports, but why?

Surely they should encourage public transport ?

Dear me. How does food and drink encourage public transport? On the train you are a captive market so if you want their food you pay their prices.

A bottle of Volvic water in Peterborough station = £2.10
The same bottle from adjacent Waitrose branch = £0.95

take your own tap water in a bottle. Much cheaper

 

[sheff1]

I've found things in Europe significantly more expensive than the UK in general. British railway stations and airports seem to be considerably cheaper than abroad even allowing for the fact that stuff abroad seems to cost more too.

Really depends where you go. Coffee at Montpelier station recently was ~ €1.70 and a croissant much less than at a UK station (both were better quality as well). Bars & restaurants on many German stations are used by townsfolk who are not travelling by train, as the prices match those elsewhere in town. Then if you are in countries like Spain or Portugal food and drink pretty well anywhere away from the tourist traps is considerably cheaper than the UK.

Obviously, if you are in places like Norway or Switzerland things will be much more expensive than the UK but I can't say I recall a particular mark up at stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it's still there, the Migros one level above the station always used to be reasonably priced if you went into the actual shop rather than buy from the convenience counter at the front.

Yes it’s still there, but not easily accessible once through security and your plane is delayed an hour.

 

[Mojo]

Really depends where you go. Coffee at Montpelier station recently was ~ €1.70 and a croissant much less than at a UK station (both were better quality as well). Bars & restaurants on many German stations are used by townsfolk who are not travelling by train, as the prices match those elsewhere in town. Then if you are in countries like Spain or Portugal food and drink pretty well anywhere away from the tourist traps is considerably cheaper than the UK.

I’m talking about the developed parts of Europe; France, Austria, Germany, and that’s before one even thinks about the Nordic countries and Switzerland which I wasn’t even going to mention as they seem to be in a league of their own!

 

[whhistle]

I don't mind paying the extra 5-10p, as i expect a mark up at stations & on board, it's when you paying nearer £2 for a 500ml bottle of soft drink/water[see WH Smith pricing] & the like, when you can get a full size bottle & sometimes more for that if you know where to shop & can stock up in advance, that's my main bugbear

I never bother buying 500ml bottle any more.
The 1L bottle costs £1. 500ml costs more. You pay extra for refridgeration.

It's a circle though.
Network Rail charge a premium for being at a station so retailers have to charge a premium to customers.
I'd rather Network Rail charge less and retailers charge less.

I wonder whether some sort of legislation to force retailers to charge the same EVERYWHERE would work. Yes, lots of thinking how to get metro stores to make money but with some thought, it would be better for customers.

 

[DarloRich]

I never bother buying 500ml bottle any more.
The 1L bottle costs £1. 500ml costs more. You pay extra for refridgeration.

It's a circle though.
Network Rail charge a premium for being at a station so retailers have to charge a premium to customers.
I'd rather Network Rail charge less and retailers charge less.

I wonder whether some sort of legislation to force retailers to charge the same EVERYWHERE would work. Yes, lots of thinking how to get metro stores to make money but with some thought, it would be better for customers.

The government are not going to allow nr to sell retail space for less than the going rate.

As for price controls that rushes of towards a communist approach to market forces.

Thw simple answer is if you dont want to pay the prices expected take your own.

 

[trebor79]

[QUOTE="Tom B, post: 4044762, member: 104"']I've seen a tin of 330ml coke at £2.25 before now. The wholesale price for that is something like 28p. (Doubtless, too, this will be much lower for a large business purchasing thousands of cans per annum).[/QUOTE]
I use to work at a sugar company and for some reason we visited a coke plant. Production cost "including your really expensive sugar" was 4p.

 

[tonysk14]

On the trains for sure but I haven't noticed that some of the shops in the station are more expensive. I was at Manchester Victoria recently and indulged in a Gregg's sausage roll (a guilty pleasure of mine) and it was the same price as you'd pay on the high street. It seemed the same with the M&S Food outlet there too.

I rarely buy on a train, I'll rely on the trolley if I'm in first with VTWC during the week or at a Sainsbury/M&S at the station before if not - but I do wince when I end up buying on the train.

The Greggs at Piccadilly is not on the station. It's just outside. That may make a doifference.

 

[Iskra]

The Greggs at Piccadilly is not on the station. It's just outside. That may make a doifference.

The Greggs on the station at Wakefield Westgate is slightly more expensive than a high street Greggs, so they also raise prices but not to a ridiculous extent.

The Greggs on my former uni, was actually cheaper than a high street Greggs

 

[Royston Vasey]

no, it's a UK thing. It's not like this in any other Western European country I've been to!

You're right, there's almost always a little supermarket in even medium sized German, Dutch, Swiss, Austrian stations, at supermarket prices. Excellent for stocking up on the Paulaners.

German airports always have an Edeka supermarket or similar as well, €1 bottles of Augustinerbrau

 

[tsr]

The Greggs on my former uni, was actually cheaper than a high street Greggs

The cafes at my former uni were Costa and an own-brand affair. The Costas were significantly cheaper than the high street variety but the food was dramatically different (and very variable in quality, sometimes notably worse). The own brand cafe was actually more expensive than the campus Costa prices but usually featured better service and food. Make of that what you will...

 

[boxy321]

Sometimes if on the train, it's nice to get a hot drink.

Tell Chiltern. 27 quid for flavoured water and a biscuit. Would love to go through the hills to Marylebone one day but can't be bothered to take a flask.

 

[boxy321]

Service stations are staffed 24/7 365 and they pay their staff more due to the cost of getting to the usually isolated locations and for working unsociable hours. Cleaners need paying too. Toilets have to be maintained and stocked. Many of these services aren’t busy at 3am on a Tuesday morning in January, but they still have to pay the staff...

Service station prices are definitely too high, but there are some reasons why prices should be higher than elsewhere, but yes there is a degree of profiteering. However, at least one MSA company’s accounts are available online and they don’t make a huge profit. Admittedly, that could be down to clever accounting and tax dodging.

Also on railways: rents are astronomical and depending on the station some stations are only busy M-F in the morning and evening peak, but passengers still expect their station to have facilities. On the way home people tend to walk straight past railway catering outlets. So prices may need to be higher to cover this, or alternatively outlets can cross-subsidise one another, Costa do that for example Retford station Costa will be subsidised by the other Costa’s on the LNER network, but it still charges the same prices. Other brands think differently and just up the prices across the board.

I worked at a Welcome Break for 18 months and the wages were not much higher than anywhere else (probably between minimum and working wage now). They pay enormous rents to the government (millions) however and I once worked Xmas day (treble) and we had about 6 customers - I fed 12 staff lunch. Service stations are generally all electric and the bill just for that is huge.

I do laugh at the people holding their Costa (other brands are available) cup waiting to get on board in standard, having paid more for their commute+coffee than it would be to travel in 1st.

I notice there is a new flower stall at Moor St station. I though the previous owner (the prices were good - on topic) was thrown out to make way for retail development?

 

[Iskra]

I worked at a Welcome Break for 18 months and the wages were not much higher than anywhere else (probably between minimum and working wage now). They pay enormous rents to the government (millions) however and I once worked Xmas day (treble) and we had about 6 customers - I fed 12 staff lunch. Service stations are generally all electric and the bill just for that is huge.

I do laugh at the people holding their Costa (other brands are available) cup waiting to get on board in standard, having paid more for their commute+coffee than it would be to travel in 1st.

I notice there is a new flower stall at Moor St station. I though the previous owner (the prices were good - on topic) was thrown out to make way for retail development?

I did 5 years at Moto (Costa & M&S) while I was at uni and they paid well plus, you got an extra £1.40ph on a Saturday and Sunday and another £1.20ph for nights/early mornings. Plus a free meal on shift. All that was very much appreciated for a then poor student

My Costa store took £800 on Christmas Day, with a couple of coach loads of people who don’t celebrate Christmas heading to the Lakes on Christmas Day. I didn’t get that really.

Train coffee is pretty dire to be honest and 1st class travel is not cheap on a walk up basis or on a season ticket/carnet as most commuters probably are.

 

[SteveP29]

no, it's a UK thing. It's not like this in any other Western European country I've been to!

Great Britain, the only economy in the world designed to relieve you of as much of your disposable income as possible.
Captive market, done, we'll have 20% more off you than shops charge
Fuel, almost 5 times as expensive as in the US
Beer, something like 75% of the price is excise duty
Private Rents, every one up to the local authority limit
Public transport costs huge
Residential care for the elderly
Child care costs
It costs to use the toilet in most public places (usually because as a nation, we can't be trusted not to thieve or destroy these things, out of boredom or just because you can)

With Motorway services I was told one of the reasons they are expensive is they have to be open 24 hours, have to provide 2 hours of free parking and have to provide food and coffee in some form 24 hours per day all of which add up.

Leicester Forest East was the natural halfway point of our holiday journey to Dorset right up until my mid teens, we always travelled overnight, at 4am the only things open in the services were the toilets.
Its a long time since I travelled overnight so I don't know what has changed, but there's surely not the demand for full restaurant and shop availability

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leicester Forest East was the natural halfway point of our holiday journey to Dorset right up until my mid teens, we always travelled overnight, at 4am the only things open in the services were the toilets.
Its a long time since I travelled overnight so I don't know what has changed, but there's surely not the demand for full restaurant and shop availability

There isn't full availability, but they are required to provide free toilets (which have a cost to maintain) and basic facilities must be available overnight (typically these days it's the Starbucks and the shop, as caffeine and sweets are the most likely thing people want at 3am).

 

[cuccir]

It costs to use the toilet in most public places

No it doesn't.
--
But going back on topic and away from the rants, I think coffee/tea on trains at least have become more comparable to coffee shop prices in recent years. High street/cafe prices have gone up and closed in on railway prices a little.

Water/snacks are still very highly priced.