When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[Baxenden Bank]

Is there a Whitby rail user group set up to promote the line. Then they would lobby network rail and the council to get improvements.

Yes, and a promotion company, Esk Valley Railway Development Company, linked to above.

The issue here is the £several million available specifically for rail improvements which is seemingly incapable of being spent, in anyway at all. Not often that you can have someone hand you £m and not know what to do with it! (OK it's not that large in current railway costs for a simple new station for example).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Hmmm not sure about the Antarctic Expedition levels, 30 seconds at a timetable and an Arriva day ticket can sort that out. I know, my wife and I have done it many times!

Convincing car owners to use the train is always a challenge, but in recent years the number of tourists pouring into Whitby has caused all sorts of problems on the roads, including forcing the closure of the swing bridge. Extra capacity and/or a more regular service gives local councils, businesses and Arriva to find ways to attract more punters through deals.

For myself, and obviously you and the wife, easy to plan, although I rather dislike the Arriva website. For the average family, having first to find out that there is a bus, determine who runs it, then find out that they have a large, signed, premises in the railway station close to the bus station but it is firmly closed to the public (perhaps there'll be a timetable in the rack). Then, as infrequent bus users, they will not realise that buying a single ticket is nearly as much as a day ticket for the whole of the County, so will feel fleeced after making two single journeys. I couldn't believe it last year at how much a single was just from Robin Hoods Bay to Whitby - lots of people walk one way and catch the bus back. The upstairs passengers of the decker I caught will not be making another bus journey for several years from their complaints I overheard!

 

[Bantamzen]

Do people think that we dont know whitby at all and what goes on there and that the town is a tourist destination?? Always find these replies to be strange and possibly insulting to our intelligence

Truthfully, I do sometimes wonder. My wife and I have stayed at Whitby for weekends or longer at least 15 times over the last decade. And between us we know hundreds of others who have done the same. And many of them have commented on how they would much prefer to use the train than drive, if only there were more than a handful of trains there. This has partly been driven by the increasingly challenging parking restrictions which mean that people staying for longer periods battling for parking spaces with day trippers. If Whtby had more capacity, more people would use it for sure.

The trouble is on this forum is sometimes threads focus on just on part of a complex issue, in this case dealing solely on summer day trippers when actually Whitby's tourist economy is far more complex. It is not insulting to suggest that all facets be considered, at least it is not intended to be.

For myself, and obviously you and the wife, easy to plan, although I rather dislike the Arriva website. For the average family, having first to find out that there is a bus, determine who runs it, then find out that they have a large, signed, premises in the railway station close to the bus station but it is firmly closed to the public (perhaps there'll be a timetable in the rack). Then, as infrequent bus users, they will not realise that buying a single ticket is nearly as much as a day ticket for the whole of the County, so will feel fleeced after making two single journeys. I couldn't believe it last year at how much a single was just from Robin Hoods Bay to Whitby - lots of people walk one way and catch the bus back. The upstairs passengers of the decker I caught will not be making another bus journey for several years from their complaints I overheard!

But the information is there, and to be honest having heard some similar type of complaining myself I wouldn't be entirely sad if some people never left their homes again... (joke)

But seriously Whitby and it's surrounding area can't cope with many more cars at many times of the year, so alternatives are needed.

 

[SideshowBob]

The "overpaid businessman" will do it most days of the year
The daytripper will do it in summer only, and only then once or twice.

I'm not sure the level of year-round demand on the York - Scarborough line, which sees an hourly service in each direction with only two stops en route would bear that out.

One is considerably more useful to the railway in terms of generating net income than the other.

It isn't the job of passengers to be useful to the railway but rather the railway's job to be useful to passengers, and to try and maximise its patronage. The current timetable on this route could be described as many things but "useful" and "designed to encourage increased patronage" would hardly be among them.

One wonders what sort of a railway system some of the 'enthisiasts' on here actually want.

Indeed.

Actually the day trippers are a fairly frequent additional from early in the year to late in the year specially when there are events on. And there are the long weekenders, and those staying longer.....

Exactly. (Plus see my comment above re the York - Scarborough line.)

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm not sure the level of year-round demand on the York - Scarborough line, which sees an hourly service in each direction with only two stops en route would bear that out.



It isn't the job of passengers to be useful to the railway but rather the railway's job to be useful to passengers, and to try and maximise its patronage. The current timetable on this route could be described as many things but "useful" and "designed to encourage increased patronage" would hardly be among them.



Indeed.



Exactly. (Plus see my comment above re the York - Scarborough line.)

So we should spend millions on giving the line a 'useful' service to a handful of passengers, as well as taking stock from busy service from elsewhere in the franchise, so that the odd daytripper doesn't have to stand...

 

[Robertj21a]

Here we are on this old canard again.

A paying customer is a paying customer, whether they're a daytripper or an overpaid businessman. The economies of towns like Whitby require daytrippers, so we can't keep thinking of them as optional extras.

The economies of towns like Whitby are not really the responsibility of the rail operator involved. It's obvious that most trippers come by car, or the frequent Arriva buses. The schoolkids looked to amount to about 40-ish on the trains I've been on so they could have a coach provided if that helped.

 

[yorksrob]

I wasn't proposing an hourly service, rather that a substantially improved timetable, over the current one, is entirely possible through 'timetabling measures' rather than 'infrastructure measures' such as new curves, re-instated loops, sections of double track etc.

The summer 1983 timetable was essentially two-hourly with some gaps filled. Ex Middlesbrough 0938, 1042 and 1142 giving a range of services for daytrippers rather than the current 'everyone onto a single train at 1020'. Ex Whitby at 0653, 0910, 1110, 1315, 1522, 1610, 1715, 1820 and 1925. Nicely providing a good range of departures from Whitby to meet day-tripper needs.

As has been suggested, the most immediate and easiest solution is to strengthen the existing 1020 Middlesbrough departure. Perhaps utilising the unit which arrives Middlebrough ECS ex Nunthorpe at 1002 and has no apparent work for the remainder of the day.
Beyond that, timetable enhancements in marginal time, such as the proposed commuter service (which does not require additional rolling stock). Similarly a later evening service, as is provided on summer Fridays.

As an awful suggestion, Arriva now seem to get a decent bus up the valley, road vehicles having moved on since the 1960's. Perhaps the schoolkids could now go by bus instead and the line be closed! Or handed over to preservation!

I preferred your first suggestion !

In terms of road transport, I've been on a mini-bus that's delved into the valley to pick up passengers from one of the stations. It was a fairly hair-raising experience.

 

[yorksrob]

The daytrippers as it is could be accomodated on coaches far more cheaply than trains.

The right solution to every problem is not necessarily the rail solution, as much as it pains me to say it.

And if daytrippers are worth keeping the line open for, providing a regular service that connects to the rest of the system is likely to see explosive growth, as was seen on the Falmouth line after the opening of the Penryn loop.
Seven or so diagrams of 2-car Class 230s and a handful of Penryn esque loops is not going to cost an astronomical amount, especially compared to many hair-brained schemes for reopening that are often mooted by enthusiasts, campaigners and politicians alike.

By that argument, why have a railway at all ? It has been shown time and time again that whilst coaches are fine for some people, many people who would consider the train wouldn't choose a bus or coach.

It's laughable really. It's not even a re-opening we're arguing for. Just a decent service on an existing route, yet the Beeching contingent aren't even satisfied with that.

 

[yorksrob]

This point has been raised time and time and time again. One assumes that the unit is not left there for a giggle? Are we quite sure that it is not in fact the only daily spare available in the area, and that as a result diagramming it in might adversely affect reliability, by taking away all cover for a failure? Isn't the usual refrain when there is a cancellation or short form as a result of a failure that the company should have greater resilience in their train availability? Furthermore, are we quite sure that the unit in question does not have another job at any point later the same day? Maybe we could get some facts in before jollily doing planning's job for them? Using it all day would also increase its mileage which would presumably need to be accounted for.

Even if it is the local spare, what is the benefit of having a unit set aside for occasional problems, if by having a unit doing nothing, you're creating a problem every weekend by short-forming the Whitby train ?

 

[yorksrob]

Do people think that we dont know whitby at all and what goes on there and that the town is a tourist destination?? Always find these replies to be strange and possibly insulting to our intelligence



Thats an average though - if the saturday peaks are as rammed as you say and the school runs are included - averaged out then there must be some empty trains out there

Well, I do wonder whether some of the people telling us to put up and shut up actually use the service that often.

If the average occupancy per train is over half of capacity as you say, there aren't going to be many empty trains at all.

 

[yorksrob]

So we should spend millions on giving the line a 'useful' service to a handful of passengers, as well as taking stock from busy service from elsewhere in the franchise, so that the odd daytripper doesn't have to stand...

Scarborough has an hourly service that connects well to the whole of the North of England. They sometimes have daytrippers that have to stand, and the solution is apparently to institute a whole additional train every hour. Yet they can't even manage a measly additional carriage on summer weekends for Whitby.

 

[SideshowBob]

So we should spend millions on giving the line a 'useful' service to a handful of passengers, as well as taking stock from busy service from elsewhere in the franchise, so that the odd daytripper doesn't have to stand...

I didn't suggest spending "millions" on anything, or taking stock from elsewhere. But neither do I think we should simply allow the next to useless timetable on this route to carry on in perpetuity. As has been pointed out, we're talking about the needs of rather more than a "handful" of passengers and "the odd daytripper". It seems obvious to me that if you want extra patronage for any service, you need to make it appealing to as many people as possible. If there's a untapped market to tap into, why would you be happy to let that market take its business elsewhere, letting your business stagnate or even shrink, rather than develop and grow?

 

[Darandio]

Scarborough has an hourly service that connects well to the whole of the North of England. They sometimes have daytrippers that have to stand, and the solution is apparently to institute a whole additional train every hour. Yet they can't even manage a measly additional carriage on summer weekends for Whitby.

Unless you tried in Summer 2018 and encountered one of the plentiful occasions where you would only get far as York or Malton.

As an aside, has anyone sampled one of the Friday night music trains out of Whitby?

 

[option]

The latest Esk Valley Railway newsletter - see link below - suggest that the extra train will give an arrival into Middlesbrough before 0800. This would mean an outward trip at 0450 ex Middlesbrough.

Strangely, they (the EVR) seem surprised at this early arrival time and consider it to be unsuitable. Have they not looked into it before? You can cross the school train at three locations: Nunthorpe, giving an 0731 arrival into Middlesbrough; Battersby, giving an 0756 arrival (and one train will have to be first in/last out with a long turn reversal time); or Glaisdale, giving an 0909 arrival.

There really is no alternative without signalling & track works.

http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/newsletter.html

Looking at the 1983 summer timetable, it was possible to achieve a near hourly service for part of the day, but that was with proper signal boxes. Introduction of No Signalman Token Remote, where the driver leaves the train to exchange tokens in a machine sat in a cabinet on the platform adds three minutes each time.

You can get close to an hourly frequency today but it would be tight and therefore probably not a good idea from a reliability perspective. Also you now have the NYMR services which use up capacity Grosmont to Whitby.

How do the NYMR services join the line, if there isn't a token machine at Grosmont?



The NYMR services for much of the year are;
Grosmont > Whitby
09:15, 10:40, 13:15, 16:30
Whitby > Grosmont
10:00, 12:45, 14:00, 17:10
(no idea about empty stock moves between 10:40 & 12:45)

That's not much capacity being used, & none at commuter/school times.

 

[ainsworth74]

How do the NYMR services join the line, if there isn't a token machine at Grosmont?

There's an intermediate block machine. Basically it allows them to get a token out for the Glaisdale - Whitby block without actually being at Glaisdale. They then put the token back into the Whitby block machine which releases the block section for another token to be removed from any of the machines.

 

[yorksrob]

The economies of towns like Whitby are not really the responsibility of the rail operator involved. It's obvious that most trippers come by car, or the frequent Arriva buses. The schoolkids looked to amount to about 40-ish on the trains I've been on so they could have a coach provided if that helped.

Well, if the buses were as good as all that, there wouldn't be full and standing trains on a route with an extremely poor timetable.

Unless you tried in Summer 2018 and encountered one of the plentiful occasions where you would only get far as York or Malton.

Well, that's not really relevant to this discussion as the Scarborough line timetable has been designed as hourly for many years. We're not discussing the reliability of the Whitby line. We're discussing the inadequacy of the planned service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Scarborough will, of course, be half-hourly before too long as Northern will be introducing a York - Scarborough service (see here for more as we're starting to go off-topic!). Frequencies that the Whitby line could only dream of!

So, would it be fair to say, that the infrastructure, even in it's reduced form with passing points only at Nunthorpe, Battersby, Glaisdale and Whitby itself could still, however, sustain one train every two hours?

 

[Esker-pades]

Scarborough will, of course, be half-hourly before too long as Northern will be introducing a York - Scarborough service (see here for more as we're starting to go off-topic!). Frequencies that the Whitby line could only dream of!

So, would it be fair to say, that the infrastructure, even in it's reduced form with passing points only at Nunthorpe, Battersby, Glaisdale and Whitby itself could still, however, sustain one train every two hours?

In theory, yes. Glaisdale is 1 hour from Middlesbrough (almost exactly), but there would be no recovery in the timetable whatsoever. So, the moment anything was even 1 minute late, that would mess up the line for the rest of the day.

 

[yorksrob]

In theory, yes. Glaisdale is 1 hour from Middlesbrough (almost exactly), but there would be no recovery in the timetable whatsoever. So, the moment anything was even 1 minute late, that would mess up the line for the rest of the day.

If you had two self contained diagrams crossing at Glaisdale, perhaps it might help to limit any knock on effects to the line itself.

 

[vlad]

But the information is there, and to be honest having heard some similar type of complaining myself I wouldn't be entirely sad if some people never left their homes again... (joke)

The information isn't there. For some reason many bus companies really don't like advertising ticket prices.

Even if the price of a day ticket is shown on a website, the price of a single almost certainly won't be. If you never travel by bus then you may well see how much a day ticket costs and think that a single could well be less than a quarter of that, whereas in reality it won't be.

 

[markydh]

The Tees Valley (and one assumes the Esk will also benefit) network is earmarked for Hydrogen trains by 2022, according to the latest Transport for the North documents.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, if the buses were as good as all that, there wouldn't be full and standing trains on a route with an extremely poor timetable.



Well, that's not really relevant to this discussion as the Scarborough line timetable has been designed as hourly for many years. We're not discussing the reliability of the Whitby line. We're discussing the inadequacy of the planned service.

.......'Full and standing trains' (although I've never seen any) appear to exist on a few days a year. That's going to be the same as many other seaside resorts. It may well be that Arriva buses can't cope with any more passengers on those days, or the train passengers are coming from the little inland villages that Arriva doesn't serve. From what I could see, the buses were full up a lot of the time and the frequency has been further improved in order to cope.

 

[Robertj21a]

Scarborough will, of course, be half-hourly before too long as Northern will be introducing a York - Scarborough service (see here for more as we're starting to go off-topic!). Frequencies that the Whitby line could only dream of!

So, would it be fair to say, that the infrastructure, even in it's reduced form with passing points only at Nunthorpe, Battersby, Glaisdale and Whitby itself could still, however, sustain one train every two hours?

So, perhaps the emphasis needs to then switch to Scarborough. It will have far better train services than Whitby, and the Arriva buses serve Whitby from there (along some beautiful coastal scenery). Leave Whitby to the NYMR.

 

[yorksrob]

.......'Full and standing trains' (although I've never seen any) appear to exist on a few days a year. That's going to be the same as many other seaside resorts. It may well be that Arriva buses can't cope with any more passengers on those days, or the train passengers are coming from the little inland villages that Arriva doesn't serve. From what I could see, the buses were full up a lot of the time and the frequency has been further improved in order to cope.

So when buses are full and standing, the answer is to increase frequency, yet when the trains are full and standing, we should do nothing or worse. There is a strand of opinion on this forum that seems to approve of anything except actually improving train services.

Last Saturday was very unremarkable weather wise with no particular events going on, yet it was full and standing. It suggests that the trains are busy on more than 'a few days a year'.

So, perhaps the emphasis needs to then switch to Scarborough. It will have far better train services than Whitby, and the Arriva buses serve Whitby from there (along some beautiful coastal scenery). Leave Whitby to the NYMR.

Funnily enough, I have used this route to get to Whitby in the past. This was because the timetable on the branch line wasn't suited to my needs on that occasion. That said, it's not one I would choose on a regular basis. I note that whereas the railway is popular enough to justify a service all year round, the bus from Scarborough can't be that popular as it was summer only when I used it.

 

[R G NOW.]

I Think the line needs longer trains and more frequent ones in the week. Then at weekends the NYMR would then run all the services. WOW think that's sorted.

 

[Killingworth]

Let's take account of relative facts. Scarborough has a population of 108k, Whitby is 13k.

Scarborough connects into the ECML at York whereas Whitby connects to Middlesbrough for connections to the ECML at Darlington. As a child I was taken from Newcastle to Scarborough twice, but never got further than an aunt in Nunthorpe towards Whitby. My non car owning rail enthusiast father was an early NYMR member but found it hard to get there.

The service to Whitby has deteriorated and adding extra carriages is the easiest first step to make improvements. Problem with that is that there aren't enough of them to satisfy existing demands around the network. Committing a reserve unit on a regular basis loses cover and potential problems elsewhere. I'm sure many members could highlight where an extra unit would help - like strengthening a service which quite often leaves so full the guard has difficulty getting in and those waiting at later stations may only get in if others get out, otherwise left on the platform.

I've walked the North Yorkshire coast and Moors and used buses to return to Whitby and found them good. I'd accept the poor rail service rather than use a bus to get to Whitby from home. At present I'd use the car, and would do so even if the rail service were twice as frequent and possibly twice as quick. Exception only for trying it to confirm observations at various points in the line. But marginal passengers will be drawn to rail by each step change, length of train, number of services, speed - and price.

Class of trains doesn't matter to most users, as long as they can get a seat and their lap top, back pack, suitcase, pram, wheelchair, bike and panniers get aboard with room to move

 

[option]

In theory, yes. Glaisdale is 1 hour from Middlesbrough (almost exactly), but there would be no recovery in the timetable whatsoever. So, the moment anything was even 1 minute late, that would mess up the line for the rest of the day.

It's only 25miles! Google has it as drivable in 40minutes.

 

[Robertj21a]

So when buses are full and standing, the answer is to increase frequency, yet when the trains are full and standing, we should do nothing or worse. There is a strand of opinion on this forum that seems to approve of anything except actually improving train services.

Last Saturday was very unremarkable weather wise with no particular events going on, yet it was full and standing. It suggests that the trains are busy on more than 'a few days a year'.



Funnily enough, I have used this route to get to Whitby in the past. This was because the timetable on the branch line wasn't suited to my needs on that occasion. That said, it's not one I would choose on a regular basis. I note that whereas the railway is popular enough to justify a service all year round, the bus from Scarborough can't be that popular as it was summer only when I used it.

You must have used it very many years ago.

Scarborough to Whitby by bus is hourly, 7 days a week all year round, increased to every 30 mins from April and even every 20 mins in July-August. I honestly think that you simply don't want to believe that there are realistic alternatives for the ordinary visitors to that coast. It doesn't have to all come down to depending on your one train on one line.

 

[yorksrob]

I Think the line needs longer trains and more frequent ones in the week. Then at weekends the NYMR would then run all the services. WOW think that's sorted.

I must admit, when I arrived at Whitby on Saturday, I gazed in envy at the long rake of mk 1's standing in the other platform, belonging to the NYMR.

Perhaps NR could hire a DMU from the NYMR to run some additional services from Whitby to connect to their Nunthorpe terminators.

 

[Esker-pades]

It's only 25miles! Google has it as drivable in 40minutes.

If you can the train that does it in 40 minutes, and stops at all the stations, I'd love to see it.