Is there a solution to the 9F mainline ban?

[alexl92]

As has been stated many times, BR Standard Class 9Fs are currently banned from the mainline as there is a fear that their flangeless centre wheel could foul check rails and cause damage or even derailment.

Is there any workable solution to this which might mean 9Fs are permitted in the future?

For example, could the flangeless centre wheel design be replaced with one which has a small flange, but with reduced route availability (ie losing the ability to navigate the tightest curves but should still be ok on the mainline?) I openly admit that I have no idea if that’s even remotely feasible.

 

[JonathanH]

As has been stated many times, BR Standard Class 9Fs are currently banned from the mainline as there is a fear that their flangeless centre wheel could foul check rails and cause damage or even derailment.

Is there any workable solution to this which might mean 9Fs are permitted in the future?

For example, could the flangeless centre wheel design be replaced with one which has a small flange, but with reduced route availability (ie losing the ability to navigate the tightest curves but should still be ok on the mainline?) I openly admit that I have no idea if that’s even remotely feasible.

Does there need to be a solution? Would the money this might cost be better focussed on paying for the next overhaul of a 9F such that they can continue to be a feature of heritage lines?

 

[randyrippley]

HS2 will be nice and straight with very shallow curves, ideal for a 9F

 

[Brush 4]

How has the p/way changed since the 80's, when 92220 was still on the main line? Are the check rails higher than they were?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Are the check rails higher than they were?

In some places, yes. That is exactly the issue.

 

[gazthomas]

HS2 will be nice and straight with very shallow curves, ideal for a 9F

Can an 9F do 200 mph?

 

[hexagon789]

Can an 9F do 200 mph?

They can do at least 90! At which point their driving wheels are rotating as fast as an A4s are at 125!

 

[gazthomas]

They can do at least 90! At which point their driving wheels are rotating as fast as an A4s are at 125!

Fair play. I guess 9F's doing overnighters could be a possibility!

 

[edwin_m]

I had it on good authority about 15 years ago that there's at least one preserved 2-10-0 in Germany that has flangeless drivers and isn't restricted despite there being numerous raised check rails.

 

[Cowley]

I had it on good authority about 15 years ago that there's at least one preserved 2-10-0 in Germany that has flangeless drivers and isn't restricted despite there being numerous raised check rails.

I suppose it’s one of those things where there’s a nominal risk with the 9F and nobody has the will to look at how much money it would take to come up with a solution?
Even if one could be passed for the mainline it would possibly be restricted to 50mph (like a *rated balanced 8F) which would restrict the amount of routes it would be useful for.
I can’t really see it happening unless one of the big hitters like Jeremy Hosking or David Smith decided that they really wanted to make it happen.

 

[hexagon789]

Fair play. I guess 9F's doing overnighters could be a possibility!

Stranger things have happened!

 

[Glen M]

Does there need to be a solution? The 9F's are literally the perfect loco for sitting at 25 on the preserved lines running heavier trains up steeper gradients, they'd be of virtually no use on the mainline being limited to 40 I believe

 

[alexl92]

I guess I was thinking that such capable machines are wasted hauling 5 coaches at 25mph; watching one take load 13 up an incline, even limited to 50, would be a great sight.

 

[73202]

How has the p/way changed since the 80's, when 92220 was still on the main line? Are the check rails higher than they were?

I have an engineering data sheet dated January 1967 which mentions reason why UK does not have raised checkrail as continental practice. It says "this is not practicable on British Railways at present due to a number of 2-10-0 locos with flangeless wheels which would become foul of any raised guard" so when 9f's had finished on the main line designers where free to use raised check rails.

 

[alexl92]

What’s the advantage of a raised check rail? Safer and more effective or just cheaper or easier to design?

 

[trebor79]

Didn't a 9F haul a stone train in/around/near Merehead quarry in the mid 90s? I'm sure I have a dim and distant memory of reading an article and seeing photos in Steam Railway or similar.
Or it might have been in an older mag donated to me by one of the guys at the steam railway I volunteered at.

 

[trebor79]

What’s the advantage of a raised check rail? Safer and more effective or just cheaper or easier to design?

I guess there's a lower risk of the wheel flange riding up onto the check rail and thereby detailing the vehicle.

 

[Cowley]

Didn't a 9F haul a stone train in/around/near Merehead quarry in the mid 90s? I'm sure I have a dim and distant memory of reading an article and seeing photos in Steam Railway or similar.
Or it might have been in an older mag donated to me by one of the guys at the steam railway I volunteered at.

I think you’re right. Possibly holding the record for the heaviest steam hauled train in the UK? It’s ringing a bell somewhere.

Edit - Looks like it’s happened more than once.
This is from 2008 (not my photo):

 

[trebor79]

I think you’re right. Possibly holding the record for the heaviest steam hauled train in the UK? It’s ringing a bell somewhere.

Edit - Looks like it’s happened more than once.
This is from 2008 (not my photo):

View attachment 65026

Yes, that's right there was something about it being some kind of record. Maybe heaviest steam hauled train? Didn't know it had happened again more recently.
Was it David Sheppard's machine that was involved in the 90's?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The quarry, however, is private metals rather than national network metals, is it not?

 

[Cowley]

The quarry, however, is private metals rather than national network metals, is it not?

Pretty sure it is Peter.

 

[Spartacus]

I have an engineering data sheet dated January 1967 which mentions reason why UK does not have raised checkrail as continental practice. It says "this is not practicable on British Railways at present due to a number of 2-10-0 locos with flangeless wheels which would become foul of any raised guard" so when 9f's had finished on the main line designers where free to use raised check rails.

That's very interesting.

Technically though they aren't banned, though they would be heavily restricted to the point of there probably being not really any routes where they could complete the whole journey, or at least getting them there would prove to be a challenge. I suppose a short section off a preserved line might be one way ahead, such as Grosmont - Whitby, but really it likely be a cse of waiting for the next set of renewals for any problem areas to be resolved, if possible. A lot of modern points would present a great problem to any wheels designed to run outside the normal envelope too.

 

[Edders23]

I guess I was thinking that such capable machines are wasted hauling 5 coaches at 25mph; watching one take load 13 up an incline, even limited to 50, would be a great sight.

But is it the best thing for a machine of that age ? would gentle runs on a preserved line not be less wear and tare than hard working on the main line ?

 

[Spartacus]

But is it the best thing for a machine of that age ? would gentle runs on a preserved line not be less wear and tare than hard working on the main line ?

In fairness the 9Fs are the youngest BR Standard steam locos there are, with none having a service life of more than 10 years, in mileage terms I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all, have yet to do the milage they would be expected to accumulate in 20 years working on BR, certainly less than they'd be expected to do in a lifetime.

 

[malc-c]

I think you’re right. Possibly holding the record for the heaviest steam hauled train in the UK? It’s ringing a bell somewhere.

Edit - Looks like it’s happened more than once.
This is from 2008 (not my photo):

View attachment 65026

Found a video on YouTube of Black Prince pulling 1000 tonne ballast train on private track

 

[malc-c]

There's a YouTube video of "Evening Star" on a run on the Settle and Carlisle line in 1988

If check rails have not been changed (risen) since 1988, then maybe a 9F could repeat this run. Even if it was restricted to certain locations it would be nice to see a 9F back on the main line

 

[alexl92]

That's very interesting.

Technically though they aren't banned, though they would be heavily restricted to the point of there probably being not really any routes where they could complete the whole journey, or at least getting them there would prove to be a challenge. I suppose a short section off a preserved line might be one way ahead, such as Grosmont - Whitby, but really it likely be a cse of waiting for the next set of renewals for any problem areas to be resolved, if possible. A lot of modern points would present a great problem to any wheels designed to run outside the normal envelope too.

Apparently the idea of applying for an exemption for Grosmont - Whitby was briefly considered, to allow 92134 to operate Whitby trains for the NYMR, but it’s been discarded as apparently there are some curves which are too tight for a 9F to be comfortable.

 

[pdeaves]

If check rails have not been changed (risen) since 1988, then maybe a 9F could repeat this run. Even if it was restricted to certain locations it would be nice to see a 9F back on the main line

Not forgetting getting the loco from its base to this route and back again. All those check rails have to be OK, too.

 

[randyrippley]

Didn't a 9F haul a stone train in/around/near Merehead quarry in the mid 90s? I'm sure I have a dim and distant memory of reading an article and seeing photos in Steam Railway or similar.
Or it might have been in an older mag donated to me by one of the guys at the steam railway I volunteered at.

there was some kind of public demonstration of power to compare the class 59 with the 9F - a competition to see which could pull more

 

[Malcmal]

What was the last outing of a 9F on the mainline? Would be curious to know the date / what tour it was etc.