Is the Midland Mainline considered an "InterCity" route?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does it even matter?

London-Southampton/Portsmouth qualifies just as much as London-Derby/Nottingham, but it isn't considered Intercity.
Although XC (which serves Southampton) is considered an Intercity TOC but doesn't go to London.
There are many anomalies.
TPE is supposed to be an Intercity TOC too (with Hitachi high-speed trains soon), but many railway geeks wouldn't agree.
London-Banbury-Birmingham is historically an Intercity route, but isn't viewed that way today.
London-Norwich will soon lose its "Intercity" feel when the new trains come in.
Many lines have become what the Germans would call RE (Regional Express) rather than IC (eg Liverpool-Norwich).
But we are left with certain lines which support 100mph+, which includes the MML (and parts of XC), but excludes Southampton/Norwich.

 

[hexagon789]

I agree that the existence of first class the current best indicator as to whether a train can be regarded as 'intercity' standard. In which case the MML counts, as eventually will the Transport to Wales service to Manchester, a DMU service with (shock horror!) doors at thirds along the coaches.

I wouldn't say that the existence of First Class in itself is a good indication, Thameslink offers First Class, but neither the service nor Class 700s could in my opinion really be described as "InterCity" per se.

 

[hexagon789]

As did MML, Hull Trains & Anglia with class 170s covering IC services complete with 1st class & buffet counter.

In some respects your could call that InterCity, connected cities, First Class, fairly limited stopping pattern, buffet service. The only thing against that is the use of 170s in my opinion, but then that seemed to be acceptable in the early 2000s.

 

[dk1]

In some respects your could call that InterCity, connected cities, First Class, fairly limited stopping pattern, buffet service. The only thing against that is the use of 170s in my opinion, but then that seemed to be acceptable in the early 2000s.

The Anglia 170s had almost a whole coach of first class & some of the most comfortable seating ever used on IC. They covered exactly the same diagrams as the loco-hauled sets but with greater flexibility.

 

[dk1]

London-Norwich will soon lose its "Intercity" feel when the new trains come in..

Why? They will have two full first class coaches & a buffet counter along with 2+2 seating throughout standard with several tables. Pendolinos are only EMUs after all.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Network Rail seem to use the term "long distance high speed" in their documents. There's 2/3 InterCity characteristics for you. The third is about on board experience, which NR aren't really paid to care about.

So... Do MML services travel a 'long distance'?
In GB rail terms I'd say yes, because if you're going to quibble about Nottingham then Bristol and Birmingham are similar distances from London. 100 miles feels like a reasonable benchmark

Are they 'high speed'?
Well, there's significant areas >100mph and a non stop London to Leicester service is averaging something like 90mph, so in a GB context where it's mostly 125moh max, thats a Yes

And given the trains themselves are basically the same as what XC currently use, and most people seem to think an 80x is a downgrade from an HST then in terms of on board experience then you have to say Yes too.

 

[70014IronDuke]

London-Southampton/Portsmouth qualifies just as much as London-Derby/Nottingham, but it isn't considered Intercity.
Although XC (which serves Southampton) is considered an Intercity TOC but doesn't go to London.
There are many anomalies.
TPE is supposed to be an Intercity TOC too (with Hitachi high-speed trains soon), but many railway geeks wouldn't agree.
London-Banbury-Birmingham is historically an Intercity route, but isn't viewed that way today. ...

Indeed, some (Coppercapped, Taunton where are you?) might argue it (and on to Wolverhaption LL) is THE ORIGINAL Inter-City route.

Let's face it, as LNW-GW Joint further points out, there are anomalies, like Pompey and Bournemouth. There is no clear definition of what is and what isn't an inter-city route: it is, in some cases, merely a poitical/marketing decision. When the concept was being worked out in the early 60s, for example, Waterloo - Exeter had expresses, but there was no way the BRB was going to deem it inter-city. No, that would have detracted from the WR route branding.

And what we call the MML today was a mixture of 90 mph expresses, including restaurant cars, along with seven-eight carriage semi-fasts stopping every 15 miles or so at towns like Bedford and Wellingborough. Quite important towns, true, but not really "up there" with Sheffield and Nottingham, less so still with the likes of Manchester, Liverpool and Edinburgh.

It's still somewhat similar today. So I think the OP is referring to this blurring of the brand definition.

 

[700007]

So to my understanding, the general view here of what constitutes as an intercity service is a fast rail service that runs between a number of cities with high population (usually connecting to London), with 'luxurious'* and frequent trains throughout the day offering a competitive journey time against other methods of transport such as the car.

*depends what your view of luxurious is.

Obviously I know in general most people don't view it as an intercity operator but rather a commuter one, but in technicalities if my definition above is correct and you agree with it, shouldn't Thameslink actually count as IC? If not, why not?

It provides a fast, frequent service between the likes of Peterborough, Cambridge, St. Albans, London and Brighton with services running no less than every 30 minutes on timetable, even offering late night / overnight trains (like on Bedford / Peterborough route) and in St. Albans case, services are non-stop every 15 minutes from London (with a supplementary stopping service about every 7-8 minutes).

 

[yorksrob]

So to my understanding, the general view here of what constitutes as an intercity service is a fast rail service that runs between a number of cities with high population (usually connecting to London), with 'luxurious'* and frequent trains throughout the day offering a competitive journey time against other methods of transport such as the car.

*depends what your view of luxurious is.

Obviously I know in general most people don't view it as an intercity operator but rather a commuter one, but in technicalities if my definition above is correct and you agree with it, shouldn't Thameslink actually count as IC? If not, why not?

It provides a fast, frequent service between the likes of Peterborough, Cambridge, St. Albans, London and Brighton with services running no less than every 30 minutes on timetable, even offering late night / overnight trains (like on Bedford / Peterborough route) and in St. Albans case, services are non-stop every 15 minutes from London (with a supplementary stopping service about every 7-8 minutes).

Well, out of the settlements mentioned, Brighton is the only one I'd consider to be a major metropolitan area, and I'd say that an InterCity route should link these. On the MML, you have Nottingham, Leicester, Sheffield and to an extent Leeds.

In terms of luxurious accommodation, I don't think Thameslink has ever been in that part of the business. Conversely, on the MML, you have the IC125.

I don't think there's any comparison between the two.

 

[InTheEastMids]

So to my understanding, the general view here of what constitutes as an intercity service is a fast rail service that runs between a number of cities with high population (usually connecting to London), with 'luxurious'* and frequent trains throughout the day offering a competitive journey time against other methods of transport such as the car.

*depends what your view of luxurious is.

Obviously I know in general most people don't view it as an intercity operator but rather a commuter one, but in technicalities if my definition above is correct and you agree with it, shouldn't Thameslink actually count as IC? If not, why not?

It provides a fast, frequent service between the likes of Peterborough, Cambridge, St. Albans, London and Brighton with services running no less than every 30 minutes on timetable, even offering late night / overnight trains (like on Bedford / Peterborough route) and in St. Albans case, services are non-stop every 15 minutes from London (with a supplementary stopping service about every 7-8 minutes).

London to Nottingham, Bristol and Birmingham are all 120-130 ish miles and take typically between 1h20 -1h45. Bedford to Brighton is a similarl distance and takes 2h20 or more. So it seems to fail the test of speed surely?

Of course you could simply think about this from the point of view of the primary market served, GTR is clearly s commuter railway, but then you just trigger the small group of people on here who somehow think commuters shouldn't be allowed on intercity trains..

 

[urpert]

Many lines have become what the Germans would call RE (Regional Express) rather than IC (eg Liverpool-Norwich).
But we are left with certain lines which support 100mph+, which includes the MML (and parts of XC), but excludes Southampton/Norwich.

If only we had the EC/IC/RE/RB classifications in our timetables this wouldn’t even be an argument :-P

In all seriousness, the abandonment of the INTERCITY brand (Great Western and Anglia used it for a few years after privatisation) was a disastrous decision IMO.

 

[Bungle158]

For my money, the MML was and is an Inter City route. When BR's brave new blue/ blue and grey for express services livery was launched in 1966, so was the Inter City brand, (as developed from a 50s named service to Brum)

I recall MML trains bearing the blue and grey and being included on the IC map.

There are enough major cities in the East Mids region to justify the handle several times over

 

[notadriver]

How about defining an intercity service as one of where there is a buffet car with a 1st class having an at seat dining service ?

 

[Western Lord]

The MML was certainly an Inter City route in BR days, and I do not see that anything has changed since. Luckily for the MML it does not have the equivalent of a Reading or Swindon on its route which demand that virtually all trains stop at least twice before reaching the first major city on the route. The GWML has over the years become a glorified outer suburban operation in comparison.

 

[43096]

The GWML has over the years become a glorified outer suburban operation in comparison.

Correct - just call it Thames Valley Metro or similar. Likewise, Cross-Country is no longer an InterCity service in my view - it's been downgraded to a jumped-up Sprinter railway.

 

[hexagon789]

The Anglia 170s had almost a whole coach of first class & some of the most comfortable seating ever used on IC. They covered exactly the same diagrams as the loco-hauled sets but with greater flexibility.

In some respects the new trains are almost like an extended electric version of the Anglia 3-car 170/2s.

 

[hexagon789]

How about defining an intercity service as one of where there is a buffet car with a 1st class having an at seat dining service ?

In which case doesn't that limit us to basically LNER and VT?

 

[duffield]

I'd say one reasonable definition would be 'Regular services with at least one full 1st class coach with 2+1 seating'.

 

[notadriver]

In which case doesn't that limit us to basically LNER and VT?

I thought EMT, GWR still had 1st class seating with an at seat hot food/host service ? Might be mistaken ? Grand central and Hull trains too maybe ?

 

[route101]

Tool MML on Friday , HST to Nottingham , felt intercity to me , coming from Scotland and used to shorter journey times , suprised how fast some places are from London.

 

[Bromley boy]

I thought EMT, GWR still had 1st class seating with an at seat hot food/host service ? Might be mistaken ? Grand central and Hull trains too maybe ?

Since the HSTs were retired, GWR no longer have a buffet car, and make do with a trolley. There is a kitchen offering at seat dining but it’s only available on a limited number of “Pullman Dining” services.

There is a thread extensively debating the whys and wherefores of this, if you’re feeling bored!

 

[cle]

There is no such thing as inter city anymore, why are we trying to define something today with an archaic category.

It’s clearly a premium route which links bigger cities, but it’s definitely not long distance (and it also performs an outer commuter function like the SWML) - with most key journeys 2 hours and under.

And it runs to secondary cities really - I’d argue Bristol is way more important economically than any of the MML destinations, and with the new fasts coming in, will have a longer run than a non-stop to Leicester.

Plus no meaningful tourist use either, which will also affect how it has been/is treated, vs the other mainlines.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is no such thing as inter city anymore, why are we trying to define something today with an archaic category.

It’s clearly a premium route which links bigger cities, but it’s definitely not long distance (and it also performs an outer commuter function like the SWML) - with most key journeys 2 hours and under.

And it runs to secondary cities really - I’d argue Bristol is way more important economically than any of the MML destinations, and with the new fasts coming in, will have a longer run than a non-stop to Leicester.

Plus no meaningful tourist use either, which will also affect how it has been/is treated, vs the other mainlines.

Isn't London a major tourist centre? - or are you looking at the MML from a purely London-centric point of view ?

 

[paul1609]

Personally I think that in 2019 Inter City should be restricted to fully electrified services with a maximum speed of at least 140 mph. Perhaps we could reclassify the trains from London to the North as Regional Expresses?

 

[bobslack1982]

Errr 1 hour 45 mins on average London to Nottingham, not really what I'd call intercity.

Dublin to Belfast is 2h 05. Is that not Inter-City?

 

[Deerfold]

I completely agree. EM is developing to be a major economic area with growing urban populations. It doesn't help that EM Airport has a station connected to it by a minivan.

Not sure of the relevance of that - that's the link to the nearest station, sure. But that's one of the worst served stations on the line.

Most passengers who want to use a bus link would use the higher spec, more frequent services from Nottingham (5bph), Long Eaton (4), Loughborough (3), Derby(3) or Leicester(3).

 

[43096]

There is no such thing as inter city anymore, why are we trying to define something today with an archaic category.

So archaic that sensible countries like Germany and Switzerland still use it.

And it runs to secondary cities really - I’d argue Bristol is way more important economically than any of the MML destinations, and with the new fasts coming in, will have a longer run than a non-stop to Leicester.

Plus no meaningful tourist use either, which will also affect how it has been/is treated, vs the other mainlines.

Which doesn't really fit with the Midland having a better business case for electrification than Great Western.

 

[AM9]

There is no such thing as inter city anymore, why are we trying to define something today with an archaic category. ...

Precisely. Unless you are an Estate Agent*, why does a train service name from BR days have any relevance to anything. What's important is the frequency of the services, and their travelling times. Only an enthusiast can get excited about what sort of train it is, it's maximum speed and where the doors are located along each coach.
The 'qualities' of the service (which are very subjective characteristics), are more related to the volume and type of passengers using it. After all, passenger receipts are quite important to the provider of the service.
* most buyers are a bit more discriminating these days, not being sucked in by such a meaningless marketing name used by BR.

 

[paul1609]

Well, out of the settlements mentioned, Brighton is the only one I'd consider to be a major metropolitan area, and I'd say that an InterCity route should link these. On the MML, you have Nottingham, Leicester, Sheffield and to an extent Leeds.

In terms of luxurious accommodation, I don't think Thameslink has ever been in that part of the business. Conversely, on the MML, you have the IC125.

I don't think there's any comparison between the two.

In 1983 London to Brighton was marketed as "InterCity" if people don't believe me watch this London to Brighton in 3 1/2 minutes look at the Solari Indicator board just after the start

 

[yorksrob]

In 1983 London to Brighton was marketed as "InterCity" if people don't believe me watch this London to Brighton in 3 1/2 minutes look at the Solari Indicator board just after the start

i think one could make an argument that a non-stop CIG-BIG-CIG from Victoria to Brighton was an InterCity quality product.

The same can't be said of the current situation unfortunately.

However, as I said in my post, Brighton/Hove is probably just about up there as a major metropolitan area.