Yellow warning panels - reflections?

[CaledonianBlue]

I couldn't find anything much here on yellow warning panels and how they are doing.
Are there any views on how it's all worked out, in terms of safety, aesthetics, etc?

As a passenger I couldn't help noticing the eye-catching TransPennine Express trains which seemed to make the most of the freedom not to have either yellow colour or panel shape. Then there is the Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains which also seem to take advantage of not needing the yellow.

Or a more pedestrian example, a Great Northern or Thameslink case, which just looked like a dull boring white train - to me looking more like an absence of styling rather than anything else - that maybe no one would notice lacked the famiiiar yellow panel. In general do passengers notice these developments?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I wouldn’t have thought many passengers do notice or care, but then the yellow panel was never about passengers’ opinions or aesthetics.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Lots of interesting reading can be found here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-all-trains-yellow-at-the-front.110377/

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...w/view/yellow-front-ends-become-optional.html

 

[CaledonianBlue]

Lots of interesting reading can be found here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-all-trains-yellow-at-the-front.110377/

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...w/view/yellow-front-ends-become-optional.html

Thanks, yes that has some useful background information from back around that time but I am wondering how people think it is actually panning out, now.

For example there was a post somewhere, I think recently, about safety in slow speed/depot conditions, but I think it was not part of a wider discussion.

 

[DarloRich]

As a passenger I couldn't help noticing the eye-catching TransPennine Express trains which seemed to make the most of the freedom not to have either yellow colour or panel shape. Then there is the Crossrail/Elizabeth line trains which also seem to take advantage of not needing the yellow.

The only people who should matter are the people working on the track. Ask them.

I wouldn’t have thought many passengers do notice or care, but then the yellow panel was never about passengers’ opinions or aesthetics.

exactly!

 

[pdeaves]

In terms of aesthetics, Transpennine has the most considered approach (include the vehicle end in the livery). The Crossrail units are plain boring plain black and have had no thought other than an apparent 'don't use yellow'.

In terms of safety, the London Overground 710s seem to be an interesting compromise by applying lots of livery orange to the fronts. In my mind they take the spirit of the yellow end rule more than other 'non-yellow' liveries. I no longer get to work on the track but my gut feel is that I wouldn't find any safety difference here but might with the other types.

 

[supervc-10]

I like the way that Stagecoach integrated the yellow into their fronts on SWT and EMT liveries, with the yellow, red, and orange all swooping together. Works particularly well on the Desiros IMO.

 

[irish_rail]

I find the black fronts reflect the sun terribly in certain conditions, I've been dazzled by a 345 by sun bouncing off it. Also it looks terrible. Bring back yellow.

 

[edwin_m]

In terms of safety, the London Overground 710s seem to be an interesting compromise by applying lots of livery orange to the fronts. In my mind they take the spirit of the yellow end rule more than other 'non-yellow' liveries. I no longer get to work on the track but my gut feel is that I wouldn't find any safety difference here but might with the other types.

However the link above talked about avoiding high-visibilty clothing colours. The LO orange is very similar.

 

[ExRes]

My personal view is that removing the yellow panels is ludicrous, I've been on the ballast on live rails as a Trainman and as a Driver and what I wanted to see was all the warning possible, the aesthetics argument is silliness of the ultimate degree, seeing danger and surviving it is all that counts when you're down there and vulnerable

In the not too distant future someone is going to lose their life over this and when it goes to court and it's proved that visibility has been reduced without good reason then a lot of stuff is going to hit the fan, and quite rightly too

Headlights may be brighter than they were, so what, safety should be increased as much as possible, not one element replaced by another

 

[Goldfish62]

In terms of aesthetics, Transpennine has the most considered approach (include the vehicle end in the livery). The Crossrail units are plain boring plain black and have had no thought other than an apparent 'don't use yellow'.

In terms of safety, the London Overground 710s seem to be an interesting compromise by applying lots of livery orange to the fronts. In my mind they take the spirit of the yellow end rule more than other 'non-yellow' liveries. I no longer get to work on the track but my gut feel is that I wouldn't find any safety difference here but might with the other types.

The only reason that the 710s have orange front ends is because the livery follows the TfL Rail livery style (as used by LU), ie the passenger door colour is replicated on the front.

Before TfL decided that Crossrail would have a non-standard livery artists' impressions of the 345 had a purple front to match the purple doors.

 

[pdeaves]

The only reason that the 710s have orange front ends is because the livery follows the TfL Rail livery style (as used by LU), ie the passenger door colour is replicated on the front.

Before TfL decided that Crossrail would have a non-standard livery artists' impressions of the 345 had a purple front to match the purple doors.

Yes; to be clear I was referring to the effective outcome, not the reasoning to get there.

 

[Goldfish62]

My personal view is that removing the yellow panels is ludicrous, I've been on the ballast on live rails as a Trainman and as a Driver and what I wanted to see was all the warning possible, the aesthetics argument is silliness of the ultimate degree, seeing danger and surviving it is all that counts when you're down there and vulnerable

In the not too distant future someone is going to lose their life over this and when it goes to court and it's proved that visibility has been reduced without good reason then a lot of stuff is going to hit the fan, and quite rightly too

Headlights may be brighter than they were, so what, safety should be increased as much as possible, not one element replaced by another

Yet others have different opinions. I know drivers and guards who have to work on the track on occasions and their personal opinion is that yellow fronts are not needed.

Personally I have no opinion either way.

As an aside many SWR trains have fronts that are black with filth and some are so bad you can barely make out the yellow.

 

[DarloRich]

I know drivers and guards who have to work on the track on occasions and their personal opinion is that yellow fronts are not needed.

OK - lets ask the blokes on the shovels all day.

 

[Goldfish62]

OK - lets ask the blokes on the shovels all day.

I'm not having a debate about it. I merely posted what my railway friends' views are to demonstrate that there is more than one opinion. I'm saying no more on the matter.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not having a debate about it. I merely posted what my railway friends' views are to demonstrate that there is more than one opinion. I'm saying no more on the matter.

and I would rather take the opinion of people on the track all day rather than a driver who has to climb down and change ends once in a while He or she clearly has a view and it is vital they are safe. However, I place more weight on the track workers views. If the say it isnt a problem I will back them because the yellow end is for their benefit.

My visits to the track are limited and tend to be in good weather. If you ask me it seems fine but I am not there in bad weather or low light or even really bright sunlight. All could impact on your ability to pick up a train approaching.

I understand that compared to drivers mere track workers are lower than low on this board but we do need to bow to their expertise on this point.

 

[Clip]

OK - lets ask the blokes on the shovels all day.

Made no difference to me when I worked on the shovels all day - that's what we had a look out for.

To be honest the debate on them has been and gone so doesn't need going over again

 

[GB]

Removal of the yellow is all well and good untill you find yourself on the ground in a poorly lit area with a train moving towards you without any lights.

 

[supervc-10]

without any lights.

Surely no train should be operating on the mainline without lights? I was under the impression that only more modern trains with brighter modern headlamps were allowed to have no yellow.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

The only people who should matter are the people working on the track. Ask them.

How? Maybe there are some on here?

 

[Darandio]

Surely no train should be operating on the mainline without lights? I was under the impression that only more modern trains with brighter modern headlamps were allowed to have no yellow.

Of course they shouldn't. But trains are driven by humans and humans can make mistakes.

How? Maybe there are some on here?

Indeed there are, let's hope they chip in.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

For what it's worth, I was surprised at the removal of what had been a long established safety feature. I then assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the matter had been tested, debated, accepted and settled. In that context, assuming the safety issue was accepted, then it seems reasonable to raise questions about outcomes more widely. If the safety matter is not settled, especially by those on the ground, then it also seems worth asking the question about outcomes on safety grounds alone.

 

[Welly]

I once observed the front end of a Mk4 DVT approach Newark Northgate in misty condition and saw the yellow front end before the headlights! This was due to incandescent lamps used in the headlights. Only those rolling stock with LED headlights (ie bright!) are allowed not to have yellow front panels.

To be honest, I prefer yellow panels when well incorporated in the design.

 

[GB]

Surely no train should be operating on the mainline without lights? I was under the impression that only more modern trains with brighter modern headlamps were allowed to have no yellow.

Trains also operate in areas other than the mainline.

 

[swt_passenger]

For what it's worth, I was surprised at the removal of what had been a long established safety feature. I then assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the matter had been tested, debated, accepted and settled. In that context, assuming the safety issue was accepted, then it seems reasonable to raise questions about outcomes more widely. If the safety matter is not settled, especially by those on the ground, then it also seems worth asking the question about outcomes on safety grounds alone.

It was tested, debated, accepted etc. That had to be done before the relevant railway group standard was updated. It seems to be one of many rule changes where the debate carries on years after the decision was made.

 

[ExRes]

It was tested, debated, accepted etc. That had to be done before the relevant railway group standard was updated. It seems to be one of many rule changes where the debate carries on years after the decision was made.

Which, with respect, should be the case

 

[philthetube]

Yellow panels and headlights, effectively a backup safety system, all be it not the most effective in the world, common sense says to me that they should remain.

 

[supervc-10]

Of course they shouldn't. But trains are driven by humans and humans can make mistakes.

Are the lights not automatic, at least on more modern stock which have been designed to meet the newer requirements?

Trains also operate in areas other than the mainline.

By mainline here I was referencing the NR network, as opposed to heritage lines and the like.

 

[Darandio]

Are the lights not automatic, at least on more modern stock which have been designed to meet the newer requirements?

For someone else to confirm, but I don't think so. There will still be a headlight switch/knob.

 

[irish_rail]

I also think yellow gives a little uniformity on our network , a relief from the daft mishmash of colour schemes but that's for another discussion!!!