First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

I think people are getting to hopped up on Glasgow at the moment.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Maybe we could see Scotland go like Manchester has so far on a depot by depot sale

I cannot think of a worse scenario than going down that road. I can only see potential buyers wanting all of First Glasgow as you'll end up in direct competition with other operators if depots are sold individually but the CMA would welcome your suggestion. Some of First Glasgow routes like the 2 are shared between depots and I think the First Midland Bluebird/Scotland East 38 may be operated by 3 depots. That's one of the reasons why I think selling individual depots will only muddy the waters.

 

[lastbus]

Would be interesting to see how that would work as all of the depots outside of Glasgow have buses that run into Glasgow. Would definitely mean a lot of changes and would make it interesting for how they'd manage the routes because not having Overtown, Blantyre or Dumbarton would cause a lot of dead mileage if they still wanted to provide services to areas outside Glasgow. Don't think there's a depot currently that isn't very important to the network operating effectively

Would the fact First don’t own Overtown depot make life tricky for any potential buyer?

 

[Bus Lightyear]

The only way stagecoach will get Glasgow if 1 or 2 depots goes to a other company but stagecoach would want the biggest one

How do you work that out? You do realise that the operation of some routes are shared between depots?

 

[winston270twm]

Would the fact First don’t own Overtown depot make life tricky for any potential buyer?

No, leases are transferable.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think people are getting to hopped up on Glasgow at the moment.

Agreed, if there are further sales (or a split up & sale) Glasgow would be one of the last to go.

 

[Scott mac]

How do you work that out? You do realise that the operation of some routes are shared between depots?

Off course a do

 

[Robertj21a]

Agreed, if there are further sales (or a split up & sale) Glasgow would be one of the last to go.

Not necessarily. As one of the few really profitable bits of First Bus it could obtain a significant price. Some of the other UK operations are unlikely to generate worthwhile amounts.

 

[Kahuna47]

Just an update from up here in GM land - Vantage will be moving to Arriva's depot in Bolton, subject to TC and landlord approval. They are setting up Rusholme just in case it doesn't go through for the 11th Aug when Diamond are taking over.

Drivers are leaving in droves at the moment (and heading to a certain Cheetham Hill-based rival firm!), so Rotala may have their work cut out for them when they get the keys!

With regards to a few other points, i think First will sell their own Grandmother for the right price, nothing is off the table. So with places such as Glasgow is all dependant on who puts offers in. But I do believe that they'll be one of the last to go.

With shared routes, theres nothing stopping rival firms doing shared routes, but its interesting that they stopped shared routes on 135 and 8s with QS and BN in the months before the Go Ahead sale...

Cheers,
K

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

Some of First Glasgow routes like the 2 are shared between depots and I think the First Midland Bluebird/Scotland East 38 may be operated by 3 depots. That's one of the reasons why I think selling individual depots will only muddy the waters.

Midland bluebird 38 is only Larbert depot . There are drivers from bannockburn that regularly help out but from Larbert depot as ‘foreign service’ I do wish things would get on though and put the staff at ease ( or out their misery

 

[winston270twm]

Not necessarily. As one of the few really profitable bits of First Bus it could obtain a significant price. Some of the other UK operations are unlikely to generate worthwhile amounts.

Totally agree, Glasgow is one of the Crown Jewels, that op along with FWY, Bristol etc are likely to sell first & command the highest prices.

Just an update from up here in GM land - Vantage will be moving to Arriva's depot in Bolton, subject to TC and landlord approval. They are setting up Rusholme just in case it doesn't go through for the 11th Aug when Diamond are taking over.
Cheers,
K

I understand the Vantage Bolton depot may well be the empty yard opposite the main Arriva Bolton depot which is currently for let. The main depot at least + possibly the yard opposite are still owned by Roger Jarvis (Blue Bus owner) ​

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not necessarily. As one of the few really profitable bits of First Bus it could obtain a significant price. Some of the other UK operations are unlikely to generate worthwhile amounts.

I can see the argument you make and don't necessarily disagree. I just suspect First will probably aim at selling the poorer bits off first like they have in the past. That said nothing is off the table and as we all know anything could happen, although unlikely we could find out tomorrow that Walmart have acquired FirstBusUk!

 

[Robertj21a]

I can see the argument you make and don't necessarily disagree. I just suspect First will probably aim at selling the poorer bits off first like they have in the past. That said nothing is off the table and as we all know anything could happen, although unlikely we could find out tomorrow that Walmart have acquired FirstBusUk!

I'm sure that First Bus would love to sell the poorer bits off first - the problem is that nobody else really wants them (we've been here, done that, for years). If there was any serious interest then a buyer should have turned up by now as the likely price would be quite low.
As Winston says, the prices that First Bus want will only be achieved by selling off West Yorkshire, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester etc

 

[mic]

Just an update from up here in GM land - Vantage will be moving to Arriva's depot in Bolton, subject to TC and landlord approval. They are setting up Rusholme just in case it doesn't go through for the 11th Aug when Diamond are taking over.

Drivers are leaving in droves at the moment (and heading to a certain Cheetham Hill-based rival firm!), so Rotala may have their work cut out for them when they get the keys!

With regards to a few other points, i think First will sell their own Grandmother for the right price, nothing is off the table. So with places such as Glasgow is all dependant on who puts offers in. But I do believe that they'll be one of the last to go.

With shared routes, theres nothing stopping rival firms doing shared routes, but its interesting that they stopped shared routes on 135 and 8s with QS and BN in the months before the Go Ahead sale...

Cheers,
K

yes and that depot is Go North West and one who has moved there is known as Buses 2012 on flicker

 

[tbtc]

Given the long delay between announcing that three depots in Manchester were for sale and the announcement of the second depot being sold (with the third still unknown), I wouldn't be getting too excited about any quick sales of anything more substantial - Stagecoach have got potential competition issues in a number of areas and Arriva seem to be busy enough being disinvested themselves - so the only things I'd see being up for grabs would be small one-depot operations that are some way from other large urban fleets (York, Aberdeen).

And that's despite the Manchester operations being heavily discounted, so presumably a lot cheaper than other companies would normally be expected to bid for them.

But if this is about bringing in the big bucks then they'll need to flog off a lot more than the likes of York - it's fine to suggest dumping poorer areas like Stoke but who is going to pay great money for that nowadays?

 

[Alexbus12]

Interesting to note, since the announcement that Bolton was to be sold, in the last 2 weeks, Bolton have seen 40+ drivers leave, with many more likely to go. Rotala are going to have a huge problem, I see route cuts coming. Though they're likely to be picked back up by other operators. With Atherton closing at the end of August, I'm intrigued to see what number of staff leaving is going to be there too, as many have indicated they don't want to travel to Bolton..

 

[mic]

talking of Bolton i think the 163 service Bury to Manchester would have been better with GNW would cut out a lot of dead mileage

 

[Kahuna47]

talking of Bolton i think the 163 service Bury to Manchester would have been better with GNW would cut out a lot of dead mileage

There's rumours going around that DBNW might sell the 162/163s, but I wouldn't hold yout breath. I think everything will stay curiously the same until franchising kicks in and thats when we'll see some interesting things happening.

 

[oldman]

But if this is about bringing in the big bucks ...

I am not sure it is about bringing in big bucks - more about getting shot of a business with all its debts and liabilities, including pension liabilities for ex-staff, retired or otherwise, which no new operator would take on. Obviously a premium would be nice, but not essential. I suspect they want a fine upstanding vulture venture capitalist to take it off their hands.

They want a balance sheet with no trace of them ever having run buses in the UK - and at pace.

 

[Volvodart]

Firstgroup mentioned the liabities as one of the reasons when the announcement was made about First Bus being up for sale. Nothing was said really about the monies being brought in.

 

[smtglasgow]

The real interest lies with the most problematic parts of UK Bus. Glasgow, Bristol, Leeds will sell no problem – although even here it will be a buyers market. But what do you do with the parts of the empire that are haemorrhaging cash? Who wants Potteries or Somerset? South Yorkshire? I can see some brave management teams considering a buy-out in some of the middling op-cos, but realistically, its hard to see First raising a decent sum across the board. If it’s all to happen ‘at pace’ then this probably becomes impossible.

 

[overthewater]

Companies were queing up to by parts of Manchester, so it possible, Stagecoach, Go Ahead, Transdev and Rotala, could be looking at all part. However is it possible a third option is on the table? First ends up keeping 1/3 of the company in tact? Let's say it get rid of 2/3 and just end up with a slim down company that has West Yorkshire, Cornwall, Bristol and somerset, worcester?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The real interest lies with the most problematic parts of UK Bus. Glasgow, Bristol, Leeds will sell no problem – although even here it will be a buyers market. But what do you do with the parts of the empire that are haemorrhaging cash? Who wants Potteries or Somerset? South Yorkshire? I can see some brave management teams considering a buy-out in some of the middling op-cos, but realistically, its hard to see First raising a decent sum across the board. If it’s all to happen ‘at pace’ then this probably becomes impossible.

Somerset (FSW) isn’t haemorrhaging cash. It’s probably at subsistence level aside from SPS operations.

I am a little perplexed by the thought of this piecemeal disposal idea. It would take longer (so going against “at pace”) and will you be left with a fire sale of the dross?

 

[DD12]

Somerset (FSW) isn’t haemorrhaging cash. It’s probably at subsistence level aside from SPS operations.

I am a little perplexed by the thought of this piecemeal disposal idea. It would take longer (so going against “at pace”) and will you be left with a fire sale of the dross?

... Or, what about only "packages" being available for sale, - to include the "dross" ?

EGs - Leicester, Worcester, and Potteries ?
Bristol and Buses of Somerset ?

 

[richw]

Somerset (FSW)

FSW (Somerset, Kernow, truronian) turned a fairly good (for the industry) profit margin.

Sorry I wanted to reply to the person you quoted not you.

 

[winston270twm]

Companies were queing up to by parts of Manchester, so it possible, Stagecoach, Go Ahead, Transdev and Rotala, could be looking at all part.

Companies were not queueing up to buy Manchester. NX dropped out early on (asking price too high vs costs to turnaround), Oldham had a buyer lined up (none of the above) deal collapsed approx Feb. Not aware of a replacement being found.

It's a buyers market, First have both the problem of Arriva being for sale at the same time & Stagecoach being restricted by its existing market dominance.

 

[Robertj21a]

Companies were not queueing up to buy Manchester. NX dropped out early on (asking price too high vs costs to turnaround), Oldham had a buyer lined up (none of the above) deal collapsed approx Feb. Not aware of a replacement being found.

It's a buyers market, First have both the problem of Arriva being for sale at the same time & Stagecoach being restricted by its existing market dominance.

.....and Arriva being a far better purchase for many.

 

[Anthony ross]

if in the event they can’t find a buyer for Oldham I wonder if they would have the depot run under the management of West Yorkshire

 

[winston270twm]

... Or, what about only "packages" being available for sale, - to include the "dross" ?

EGs - Leicester, Worcester, and Potteries ?
Bristol and Buses of Somerset ?

I had considered that to be a potentially good package proposal for a 'Midlands' package, it would keep the current Head Office setup as is. Although you refer to Potteries as being the dross, under a different management style & with investment anything is possible, I'm sure even that could benefit with improved financial performance & growth. Although Potteries is not great bus territory, IIRC First Potteries is at least back to making a small profit. There obviously wouldn't be anything stopping a new owner selling it on at a later date, but for First it would enable a sale 'at pace'.

.....and Arriva being a far better purchase for many.

Agreed, Talking of which, didn't DB want to have a preferred bidder agreed prior to Summer holidays ? It seems to have gone quiet in the press of late.

I can't remember a time when there has been this many bus operating companies up for sale, like I said earlier, it's very much a buyers market. Demand will obviously be higher for the crown jewels, but some hands will be tied also. ​

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the whole Potteries area is proving to be a nightmare for any bus operator. First has cut back continually and only D&G is picking up any of it. Even then, they're sensibly selective and will subsequently drop routes or frequencies if necessary.