ScotRail under fire after major disruption around Edinburgh on Saturday 24 August

[marks87]

Yes, aside from Scotrail's late evening performance, I think that the first question that needs to be answered here is why a rugby international was allowed at Murrayfield when the city was at bursting point anyway.

The kick-off time for the rugby was already earlier than usual; normally internationals at Murrayfield don't kick-off before 2.30pm, so it looks like it was considered. They just didn't seem to take into account that people were likely going to hang around later, quite possibly because of the Fringe.

Someone mentioned the football as well. I know from experience that trains to Fife are rammed with Hearts or Hibs supporters after matches at Tynecastle and Easter Road (I had the unfortunate experience of catching the last train back to Dundee from Edinburgh Gateway after a Friday night derby and could barely get on; it being a single 158 probably didn't help, mind). As with the rugby, not everyone will then get the first available train after 5pm.

All things considered, it might well have made sense for at least one of the rugby or football to be on the Sunday.

 

[JohnR]

Leaving aside the regular services which were cancelled - what more COULD ScotRail realistically do?

I suppose it could get a couple of extra HST sets, there could even be a use for them outside of the fringe, eg when events are on at the Hydro, major football/rugby matches etc.

But then there are staffing - can it get staff to work on Saturdays?

 

[Alanko]

I would also point out that the Edinburgh festival is now far too big for Edinburgh to cope with. This isn't just a railway issue, but a wider problem for the city's public services. A lot of Edinburgh people quite honestly don't want to know.

As an Edinburgh dweller I agree with this. The problem really is the Fringe. It was meant to be the raunchy antidote to the more serious International Festival, back in the day. Per many things, the Fringe has become the sort of expensive, bloated and heavily monetised event it was set up to defy and Edinburgh City Council et al haven't really thought about how to cope with this expansion. The Fringe doesn't really benefit Edinburgh, or Scotland, at all. It has pretty much nothing to do with either. Vast numbers of people decend on the city to watch a string of 20-something guys in t-shirts tell the same anti-Brexit jokes on a loop in a bid to make it onto Mock The Week. In some regards the Fringe is oddly staid and safe.

As such I can't really get too angry at Scotrail here. This vast event is thrust on us, and we're simply meant to take all the challenges that come with it. The city reached saturation point last year (if not 2017), with all the available beds filled in the city! There is no real resilience or strategic planning built into this, because the Fringe has grown so organically over time.

Leaving aside the regular services which were cancelled - what more COULD ScotRail realistically do?

I agree. I would think that it is up to the Scottish Government to take a more strategic approach on this matter, rather than criticise a TOC. If you want to benefit from a vast international festival, which appears to grow in size every year, then you need to better plan for if and when all the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up and a big sporting event causes this number of issues.

 

[Deltic1961]

Delay repay is their get out for everything.

Sorry you missed your connection, concert, meal booking, funeral etc.

But claim delay repay, get £2.20 back and everything is ok.

One broken down train could cost them tens of thousands in compensation alone, not to mention knock on issues but it just keeps on happening.

 

[Highland37]

Leaving aside the regular services which were cancelled - what more COULD ScotRail realistically do?

I suppose it could get a couple of extra HST sets, there could even be a use for them outside of the fringe, eg when events are on at the Hydro, major football/rugby matches etc.

But then there are staffing - can it get staff to work on Saturdays?

More ancient rolling stock is not the answer.

Anyone interested in a video about the festival should look at a video on YouTube called There's no Edinburgh in the Festival.

 

[Journeyman]

I doubt it. The Scottish Government will just sweep this under the carpet the same way they have done many times in the past.

They're too busy bleating on about the will of the Scottish people to show any interest in providing a reliable rail network.

Anything bad that happens in Scotland is Westminster's fault, obvs!

I would also point out that the Edinburgh festival is now far too big for Edinburgh to cope with. This isn't just a railway issue, but a wider problem for the city's public services. A lot of Edinburgh people quite honestly don't want to know.

I would say that Edinburgh now has a very, very serious over-tourism problem that comes to a head in August. I live in Winchburgh, and it's now so bad that I don't go anywhere near the city centre in August unless I absolutely have to (fortunately I don't work there). This year, I've visited Edinburgh city centre once in the last month, for the Madness concert last weekend. To be fair, that was well-run and the crowd management was pretty effective, but too much goes on at once and it's an enormous problem.

It's made me think about where I go on holiday now. I'd far rather visit cities that almost no-one bothers with, because I've seen the problems tourism has caused on my own doorstep.

 

[Journeyman]

Delay repay is their get out for everything.

Sorry you missed your connection, concert, meal booking, funeral etc.

But claim delay repay, get £2.20 back and everything is ok.

One broken down train could cost them tens of thousands in compensation alone, not to mention knock on issues but it just keeps on happening.

The railway isn't liable for consequential loss, and it never has been. If you run the risk of being significantly out of pocket or missing something critical if your train is delayed, you need to take out insurance.

 

[Deltic1961]

Hence the reason I never book the train if I'm going somewhere important.

 

[Journeyman]

Hence the reason I never book the train if I'm going somewhere important.

But no transport operator will accept liability for consequential loss, and what happens if you get delayed by traffic?

Stupid argument, really.

 

[Deltic1961]

Well everything is risk based and personally I find Scotrail a far higher risk of being delayed than by car or bus. But each to their own of course.

 

[Mingulay]

Anything bad that happens in Scotland is Westminster's fault, obvs!



I would say that Edinburgh now has a very, very serious over-tourism problem that comes to a head in August. I live in Winchburgh, and it's now so bad that I don't go anywhere near the city centre in August unless I absolutely have to (fortunately I don't work there). This year, I've visited Edinburgh city centre once in the last month, for the Madness concert last weekend. To be fair, that was well-run and the crowd management was pretty effective, but too much goes on at once and it's an enormous problem.

It's made me think about where I go on holiday now. I'd far rather visit cities that almost no-one bothers with, because I've seen the problems tourism has caused on my own doorstep.

Whilst Scotrail have a propensity to make a fist of things as a rule. This is just overload of the system. Rugby and the festival?. No. Rugby should not clash.

The festival is too big now. The city is swamped. All this money rolling in the the Edinburgh streets are a mess. Litter weeds etc.

Tourism needs regulated in our small country. Or it gets ruined, for tourists and residents. North coast 500. Too many camper vans. Roads too small. Congestion on Skye. Ferries over booked and breaking down. REIT. It goes on and on. Scottish government failure to get a grip of anything again shines thru. Over sell our tourism then its Ruined for us all.

 

[hwl]

Whilst Scotrail have a propensity to make a fist of things as a rule. This is just overload of the system. Rugby and the festival?. No. Rugby should not clash.

The festival is too big now. The city is swamped. All this money rolling in the the Edinburgh streets are a mess. Litter weeds etc.

Tourism needs regulated in our small country. Or it gets ruined, for tourists and residents. North coast 500. Too many camper vans. Roads too small. Congestion on Skye. Ferries over booked and breaking down. REIT. It goes on and on. Scottish government failure to get a grip of anything again shines thru. Over sell our tourism then its Ruined for us all.

So Scotland's preparations for the world cup should be compromised by the festival? (The Rugby international warm ups are scheduled multinationally and ignore other local issues, as any Rugby hosting capital city should be able to handle Rugby and other events without issue)
The problems is that the festival bring lots of money in but no one wants to contribute for the for the basics that are required as part of it.

 

[Northhighland]

Posters are conflating two issues

Firstly there is a tourism issue in Scotland. We take in the cash but don’t spend on the infrastructure to support the increased volume of visitors.

Ultimately that is bad for our economy and reputation. The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

Secondly though none of the above is an excuse for the current performance of Scotrail. What happened at the weekend was perfectly foreseeable and they should have had staff to deal with the people and keep everyone safe.

They really made a complete backside of it. As I have said before until they become focused on customers and start to run a railway focused on the needs of customers not the staff employed the situation will not improve.

 

[Mingulay]

So Scotland's preparations for the world cup should be compromised by the festival? (The Rugby international warm ups are scheduled multinationally and ignore other local issues, as any Rugby hosting capital city should be able to handle Rugby and other events without issue)
The problems is that the festival bring lots of money in but no one wants to contribute for the for the basics that are required as part of it.

No I am not saying that. But if you can't cope you can't cope. I love the rugby but if your going to subject the fans to the misery of travel home you need to think that an alternative may be better.

I agree the festival needs to be better regulated and fund infrastructure . We are all losers when fans. Festival goers and foreign tourists see our city and Transport as a shambles

 

[Mingulay]

Posters are conflating two issues

Firstly there is a tourism issue in Scotland. We take in the cash but don’t spend on the infrastructure to support the increased volume of visitors.

Ultimately that is bad for our economy and reputation. The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

Secondly though none of the above is an excuse for the current performance of Scotrail. What happened at the weekend was perfectly foreseeable and they should have had staff to deal with the people and keep everyone safe.

They really made a complete backside of it. As I have said before until they become focused on customers and start to run a railway focused on the needs of customers not the staff employed the situation will not improve.

Fair comment. On all points

 

[InOban]

Hold on! Every train they had was meant to be in use, but one went tech, as they say in the airlines.
Your customer focus would require a renegotiation of the T&Cs of the staff
Not saying that shouldn't happen, but the unions won't be keen.
As for infrastructure investment, that requires a bedroom or other tourist tax, as is common in other countries. It's been suggested, but you can understand that the idea goes down as well as congestion charges.
And as for the rugby, there should be a body which has the authority to decide the dates of similar events. I'm sure it could have been on Sunday.

 

[Edders23]

I think there is a lack of understanding of the real world in some of the above posts.

Any major event will put a massive strain on ALL transport infrastructure including roads, airports and railways.

Secondly modern trains are very pricey items of equipment. It is simply not economic to have an over supply of equipment for a once a year event. The only possible increase might be if stock could be drafted in from other areas but that in itself would cause major problems.

Staff don't grow on trees and cost a lot of money in both wages and training so extra drivers and guards will be very difficult to source especially at a time of year when the holiday season is at it's peak just before schools return. British workers have grown accustomed to more holidays and leisure time than was the case in say the 60's or 70's so staffing at transport undertakings is always very thin this time of year ( I run a taxi company so believe me I know !!)

I suspect Scotrail were doing what they could BUT probably were on a very sticky wicket without Ben Stokes in their arsenal

 

[47271]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49470685
Well, they've apologised.

The piece is too long and full of Twitter quotes to paste but here's the cause, a quote from Scotrail Operations Director David Simpson:

"We also had a trespass incident at Curriehill, we had a train failure, and between them that meant that trains weren't able to run as planned and that caused the crowd and congestion that we heard about through social media."

I'm not excusing anything, but at least we know what the direct cause was.

 

[snookertam]

Posters are conflating two issues

Firstly there is a tourism issue in Scotland. We take in the cash but don’t spend on the infrastructure to support the increased volume of visitors.

Ultimately that is bad for our economy and reputation. The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

Secondly though none of the above is an excuse for the current performance of Scotrail. What happened at the weekend was perfectly foreseeable and they should have had staff to deal with the people and keep everyone safe.

They really made a complete backside of it. As I have said before until they become focused on customers and start to run a railway focused on the needs of customers not the staff employed the situation will not improve.

I very much agree with this, although I would point out that in a city like Edinburgh, which is fairly small in international terms (Less than 500k population) there's maybe only so much you can improve the infrastructure to cope with tourism. I agree that the boated size of the fringe is the issue. And I enjoy going to Edinburgh for the fringer - it is a good thing to have if it is properly regulated - however it is just allowed to develop without limit and the city and its surroundings really struggle to cope.

However, ScotRail do this time and time again when there are major events on. The festival and fringe are on at the same time every year, they create the same challenges each year. The example of how to do things when a major event is on was when the commonwealth games were on in Glasgow. Whilst that was a one off and over a shorter period, every effort was put in to ensure that the railway was able to cope with all the demand, including staff incentives to encourage additional and late shift working. Additional and strengthened services operated on a number of routes, with the entire timetable altered where needed. Whilst it was not without its own challenges and faults, how ScotRail dealt with that event showed a desire not to be limited by the typical railway cry of 'thats how we've always done it', with infrastructure and rolling stock maintenance was arranged in a way to ensure maximum availability during the event itself.

As an aside, I very much doubt 'every available carriage was in service' as suggested by ScotRail. They run a 15 min service using 7 car class 385s during the day, whilst running a half hourly service at night. Fife Circle services are cut back and the Queen Street via Cumbernauld service is cut back to Falkirk Grahamston. That alone suggests some of those trains were not in service.

Yes there is the question of why the rugby had to be on at the same time - plenty of stadia around Scotland can host a rugby match so it doesn't have to be Murrayfield - and the question of why Edinburgh allows the festival to grow practically without limit with no consideration for the consequences. However it sounds like ScotRail also need to carry the can for their lack of adequate response on Saturday.

 

[snookertam]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49470685
Well, they've apologised.

The piece is too long and full of Twitter quotes to paste but here's the cause, a quote from Scotrail Operations Director David Simpson:

"We also had a trespass incident at Curriehill, we had a train failure, and between them that meant that trains weren't able to run as planned and that caused the crowd and congestion that we heard about through social media."

I'm not excusing anything, but at least we know what the direct cause was.

I think part of the question here is where the failures were, and did they necessitate cancelling trains repeatedly from Waverley.

The point made from the TSSA rep is relevant here too particularly when questions are raised over lack of staff on the platforms.

 

[NotATrainspott]

One issue that planners may neglect is that failures can and will compound and cause even more failures. When a train is full and standing, the dwell times increase dramatically, so it's more likely to be late. When a train is late, it ends up arriving at the stations later and being there to pick up people who would otherwise have got a later service. That means it gets even busier, so it gets even slower, and so on. On buses this often manifests itself as two or more buses playing leapfrog as one drives past the other while it fills up with the large number of passengers waiting.

The best way to prevent a catastrophic failure then is to artificially pad excess capacity into the system to absorb the shocks. For instance, even if it's not viable to run extra carriages at the exact periods of highest demand, running extra carriages before then reduces the risk of earlier undercapacity spilling over and ruining things later.

If it's impossible to add more trains, then the only other way of moving people around as efficiently as possible is to implement demand-variable pricing. When ScotRail know these trains are going to be guaranteed to be busy, why shouldn't they be allowed to charge more for them? For nothing more than encouraging people to travel earlier and spread demand it's worthwhile. It might require a bit more political involvement than 'add more carriages' but it's an idea that's more likely to actually have the intended effect.

 

[47271]

One issue that planners may neglect is that failures can and will compound and cause even more failures. When a train is full and standing, the dwell times increase dramatically, so it's more likely to be late. When a train is late, it ends up arriving at the stations later and being there to pick up people who would otherwise have got a later service. That means it gets even busier, so it gets even slower, and so on. On buses this often manifests itself as two or more buses playing leapfrog as one drives past the other while it fills up with the large number of passengers waiting.

The best way to prevent a catastrophic failure then is to artificially pad excess capacity into the system to absorb the shocks. For instance, even if it's not viable to run extra carriages at the exact periods of highest demand, running extra carriages before then reduces the risk of earlier undercapacity spilling over and ruining things later.

If it's impossible to add more trains, then the only other way of moving people around as efficiently as possible is to implement demand-variable pricing. When ScotRail know these trains are going to be guaranteed to be busy, why shouldn't they be allowed to charge more for them? For nothing more than encouraging people to travel earlier and spread demand it's worthwhile. It might require a bit more political involvement than 'add more carriages' but it's an idea that's more likely to actually have the intended effect.

Peak pricing is great in principle and may have helped this situation when the passengers were sober enough to understand it at around 11am on Saturday morning, but I doubt if they would've been in any mood to cooperate twelve hours later. Also I'd love to know if anyone had their tickets checked, or if the Waverley and Haymarket gatelines were in use much after 7pm. I very much doubt it.

 

[mcmad]

Hold on! Every train they had was meant to be in use, but one went tech, as they say in the airlines.

That line which is always trotted out on twitter by Scotrail holds no water. The loco hauled services weren't out and Haymarket, Eastfield and the other depot would all have stock sat.

How much of it was serviceable is another matter but to say every train was in use is a barefaced lie.

 

[stu77]

With another rugby international lined up for a week on Friday at 7.30 with an after 9 finish it will interest to see if any additional planning will be done by scotrail.

 

[snookertam]

I think there is a lack of understanding of the real world in some of the above posts.

Any major event will put a massive strain on ALL transport infrastructure including roads, airports and railways.

Secondly modern trains are very pricey items of equipment. It is simply not economic to have an over supply of equipment for a once a year event. The only possible increase might be if stock could be drafted in from other areas but that in itself would cause major problems.

Staff don't grow on trees and cost a lot of money in both wages and training so extra drivers and guards will be very difficult to source especially at a time of year when the holiday season is at it's peak just before schools return. British workers have grown accustomed to more holidays and leisure time than was the case in say the 60's or 70's so staffing at transport undertakings is always very thin this time of year ( I run a taxi company so believe me I know !!)

I suspect Scotrail were doing what they could BUT probably were on a very sticky wicket without Ben Stokes in their arsenal

Just to point out - the schools are already back in Scotland. Holiday season here is over and it's also not a bank/public holiday here today like in the rest of the UK. As far as any lack of staff was concerned this shouldn't have been an issue.

One issue that planners may neglect is that failures can and will compound and cause even more failures. When a train is full and standing, the dwell times increase dramatically, so it's more likely to be late. When a train is late, it ends up arriving at the stations later and being there to pick up people who would otherwise have got a later service. That means it gets even busier, so it gets even slower, and so on. On buses this often manifests itself as two or more buses playing leapfrog as one drives past the other while it fills up with the large number of passengers waiting.

The best way to prevent a catastrophic failure then is to artificially pad excess capacity into the system to absorb the shocks. For instance, even if it's not viable to run extra carriages at the exact periods of highest demand, running extra carriages before then reduces the risk of earlier undercapacity spilling over and ruining things later.

If it's impossible to add more trains, then the only other way of moving people around as efficiently as possible is to implement demand-variable pricing. When ScotRail know these trains are going to be guaranteed to be busy, why shouldn't they be allowed to charge more for them? For nothing more than encouraging people to travel earlier and spread demand it's worthwhile. It might require a bit more political involvement than 'add more carriages' but it's an idea that's more likely to actually have the intended effect.

It wouldn't have had any effect because these were the last trains and people were intending on spending as much time as they possibly could in Edinburgh. The cost of rail travel in and out of Edinburgh is already a controversial issue as it is, and to inflate prices whenever some trains are going to be busy would be a non-starter in political terms. To quote the corporate identity logo, it's 'Scotland's Railway', not Ryanair or Easyjet. Given the heavy involvement that the government have in the franchise set up, there's no way they could allow a private operator to attempt to price people out of using trains.

 

[alangla]

Or ScotRail could have directed them to the bus station and they could get a citylink service from there to Glasgow. After all they run 24/7.

Ever tried getting a 900 on a Saturday night during the festival? They leave St Andrews Square with a set number of spare seats and are usually absolutely full by Lothian Road or Haymarket. Citylink could not have helped in this situation and the rugby probably partially messed up their timetable too, though it may well have recovered by the time in question

 

[Highland37]

Posters are conflating two issues

Firstly there is a tourism issue in Scotland. We take in the cash but don’t spend on the infrastructure to support the increased volume of visitors.

Ultimately that is bad for our economy and reputation. The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

That's not actually true. If a hotel or any other tourism business makes a profit, it pays tax. That tax is not devolved so the increased tax take does not increase the budget for the Scottish government. There is also no tourist tax, yet.

Until corporation tax is devolved, it is not appropriate to blame the government for a problem they have no way of addressing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A lot of obfuscation from Scotrail here. If "every train was out" why was a 170 running a Queen Street service?

In both the sentences "every available train" and "every available driver", the word available is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. A driver who won't do the overtime isn't available and a 385 tucked up in bed isn't an available train.

 

[haggishunter]

Posters are conflating two issues
Ultimately that is bad for our economy and reputation. The usual suspects will trot out the usual excuses but this is wholly a SG problem.

There is a charge that the SG of various hues since devolution has helped put Scotland more on the map, so things have got busier and bigger. The infrastructure situation is certainly better than it was in 1998 - the rate of improvement unless basically infinite can never overcome many decades of grossly inadequate infrastructure spend in the UK.

Edinburgh is a capital city hosting the biggest annual arts festival in the world, but for decades like the rest of Scotland investment in infrastructure by HM Government was barely adequate for a small provincial market town (and the rest of Scotland far below even that).

A tourist tax is trotted out as a potential solution, but unless it was expressly ring fenced for tourism or infrastructure related spending it would achieve nothing unless the intent was to set it at a deterrence level to discourage tourism, and that level isn't very high. The UK has one of the highest VAT rates on accommodation providers and restaurants in the EU, putting a tourist tax on top of that could be extremely damaging.

What is arguably needed is a geographic and industry related hypothecation of a proportion of VAT towards investing in infrastructure in popular tourist areas. At present the better the Scottish Tourism industry does the more VAT is raked in by the UK government, but it makes no difference to the SG budget whether tourism sector goes up or down. The SG in too many areas has responsibility, but no effective power - the tax changes made post IndyRef1 are first and foremost a fiscal trap for the intention of preserving the status quo.

A sizeable chunk of that VAT charged on visitor services should be spent in the local areas it's paid in to support creating a quality and sustainable tourism industry.

 

[Chrism20]

I think the main question I have is “Was the initial plan right for the affected services”?

For instance (assuming the best case scenario and everything was doubled) would 24 carriages (1648 seats) to Dunblane and 48 to Queen Street (3276 seats) have been enough between 2200 and 0100?

Allowing for 1000 (100 per Service) standing that gives capacity of just short of 6000.

I don’t think the initial plan is that far off to be honest, it’s the on the day coordination that needs the work and some kind of crisis plan in place if it all goes awry.


Going forward though it’s clear that two E>G an hour in the evenings isn’t going to be enough. They need to look at getting it to every 20 minutes as a minimum.

I agree with what most of the others have said about the Festival, however from looking at the Evening News, Police Twitter etc there doesn’t seem to have been a spike in problems over the weekend being reported. The main problems seem to have started when people made their way into Waverley. I also live near Murrayfield and from observation on Saturday the organisation pre and post match seems to have worked pretty much like every other one has since we moved up here.