EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bantamzen]

The concern in the UK isn't so much about people being employed illegally and employment law being flouted (though of course that does happen, including by employers employing EU citizens who are here perfectly legally and entitled to work "above board"), but about wage suppression. Our legal minimum wage effectively becomes the maximum wage for many jobs. Wage suppression also happens in jobs above the minimum wage level due to an increase in the workforce prepared to work for a lower wage.

But again, this is the fault of our system, not the EU's. We could work on legalisation to deal with the wage suppression, making it effectively illegal, but we don't. Why? Because profits are far more important than quality of life in this country. And this won't change if we no longer have freedom of movement with the EU, the only difference would be the native country of those migrant workers being exploited and thus suppressing wages.

 

[ainsworth74]

But EU nationals cannot claim benefits in the UK until they've been here for 5 years, which effectively means that EU migrants have to support themselves.

It's not quite that hard to qualify for benefits as an EEA national (though nor is it as easy as certain sections of the media like to portray)!

Broadly an EEA national will always have recourse to public funds as they're not subject to immigration control. But they'll still need to show that they're present in the UK (for most benefits) and that they're habitually resident (i.e. they live here as their home not just to visit) and have right to reside and it's with right to reside where it gets tricky.

Broadly there's a few different groups that can qualify people who are working for example. Jobseekers can qualify but only for 90 days without showing that they have realistic prospects of gaining work. Which gets harder to do as time goes by.

After five years you can apply for indefinite leave to remain that also means you'll satisfy the right to reside test permanently.

So not quite as simple as saying you have to wait five years. But equally not as easy as just walking off the boat and into a Jobcentre and saying "money please!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Employment law however applies to all workers in Switzerland. I wouldn't call this a restriction as such. But it makes hiring people from abroad as cheaper workforce much more unlikely. But to my understanding, the same applies to the rest of the EU and the UK, but it seems (at least for the UK) that employment law isn't really enforced. This however is hardly the EUs fault.

The UK, unlike Switzerland, does not have legal protection against immigrant workers willing to live in poor conditions[1] dragging wages down.

[1] Some of them were living in illegal conditions, but this can even happen where they will accept legal but poor conditions in registered but very run-down HMOs.

 

[najaB]

Nice selective quoting, well done.

Err.... How is quoting the entire paragraph that I'm commenting on selective?

 

[fowler9]

The concern in the UK isn't so much about people being employed illegally and employment law being flouted (though of course that does happen, including by employers employing EU citizens who are here perfectly legally and entitled to work "above board"), but about wage suppression. Our legal minimum wage effectively becomes the maximum wage for many jobs. Wage suppression also happens in jobs above the minimum wage level due to an increase in the workforce prepared to work for a lower wage.

Ha ha. Do you honestly think wages are going to shoot up after we leave the EU? And by that I mean over 10, 20, 30, 40 or more years time. You live in a fantasy realm if you do. I am on minimum wage and there is not one foreign national working there.

 

[edwin_m]

The concern in the UK isn't so much about people being employed illegally and employment law being flouted (though of course that does happen, including by employers employing EU citizens who are here perfectly legally and entitled to work "above board"), but about wage suppression. Our legal minimum wage effectively becomes the maximum wage for many jobs. Wage suppression also happens in jobs above the minimum wage level due to an increase in the workforce prepared to work for a lower wage.

If that was so and due to immigration, then why is our unemployment rate so low? It may well be that it's because a lot of people are on zero-hours contracts working few hours for little money, but that's another thing that's nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Mag_seven]

Ha ha. Do you honestly think wages are going to shoot up after we leave the EU?

Unfortunately a lot of people who were convinced to vote to leave do!

Do you honestly think the likes of likes of Farage, the ERG and Jacob Rees Mogg etc want the wages of ordinary people to rise......

 

[fowler9]

Unfortunately a lot of people who were convinced to vote to leave do!

Do you honestly think the likes of likes of Farage, the ERG and Jacob Rees Mogg etc want the wages of ordinary people to rise......

Of course they don't. The country I was born in astonished me in negative ways time and time again recently. Now they have removed my easiest way to get away from them.

 

[Killingworth]

I counter your example with mind: in my team at work (of thirty or so) seven are EU nationals simply because they are the best people we could find for the job, not because we're looking for cheap labour.

I'd second that. A son of mine's company struggles to find anyone in the UK with the specific skills they need. They find the best are from Eastern Europe where those skills are taught. The jobs are very well paid. One works from home, possibly in Vilnius, for much of the time. That's the modern way of work.

It's a complicated world we now live in. However we proceed there's going to be collateral damage.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm a Remainer on balance, FWIW, but I think those who blindly believe the EU is perfect are as bad as those who believe it is wholly evil.

I think one must recognise that even if one feels freedom of movement is overall beneficial (and I have certainly benefitted from it), that it does have flaws and cause some issues. Blindly ignoring those is as bad as blindly disliking immigration.

I have to say the same. The EU has many faults and if we'd been a little more effective in tackling them we'd not be in this mess. Probably too late now but some of our reasons for leaving have been noted and may help get one or two things improved.

Trouble is if I concede just a small failing in the EU to some Brexiteers they'll see a weakness to exploit and think that one small issue proves their entire case. As I'd probably do in reverse.

Net result, we're in much the same place as we were 3 years ago, deadlocked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd second that. A son of mine's company struggles to find anyone in the UK with the specific skills they need. They find the best are from Eastern Europe where those skills are taught. The jobs are very well paid. One works from home, possibly in Vilnius, for much of the time. That's the modern way of work.

Though there is the valid argument (though I know it's not quite as black and white as that) of "well, train some British people then". UK companies seem much of the time to want skilled people on a plate, rather than invest in growing them through apprenticeships etc which are *really* big in places like Germany.

 

[najaB]

Though there is the valid argument (though I know it's not quite as black and white as that) of "well, train some British people then".

But why should the company spend time and effort training people to do a job when there are already people with the skills looking for a job? Depending on the skills we're talking about that could mean months or even years of investment with no guarantee of an employee at the other end.

UK companies seem much of the time to want skilled people on a plate, rather than invest in growing them through apprenticeships etc which are *really* big in places like Germany.

I suspect you'll find that, much like modern apprenticeships here, they are at least part-funded by the state.

 

[Killingworth]

Though there is the valid argument (though I know it's not quite as black and white as that) of "well, train some British people then". UK companies seem much of the time to want skilled people on a plate, rather than invest in growing them through apprenticeships etc which are *really* big in places like Germany.

Fine in theory but not so easy in practice.

High tech business, say 30 employees, contracts international, competitors in UK and abroad, employees internationally mobile, training takes years. It's hard enough to hold onto staff so the fear would be that the small company would be training for the benefit of others.

Apprenticeships certainly do work, but the practicalities for many small businesses are almost insurmountable. It's a long term training issue for the nation.

 

[AM9]

But why should the company spend time and effort training people to do a job when there are already people with the skills looking for a job? Depending on the skills we're talking about that could mean months or even years of investment with no guarantee of an employee at the other end.

I suspect you'll find that, much like modern apprenticeships here, they are at least part-funded by the state.

"part-funded by the state" or in the case of nurses and doctors, part funded by another state. I have reservations about the UK luring trained nurses for example from countries where pay is far lower than here. Depleting other countries' health services as a cheap way of staffing the NHS without paying for training is morally questionable. Taking in nurses from other EU countries is not a damaging to those donor societies than it will be when the recruiting focus turns to much poorer third world nations.

 

[anme]

I have to say the same. The EU has many faults and if we'd been a little more effective in tackling them we'd not be in this mess. Probably too late now but some of our reasons for leaving have been noted and may help get one or two things improved.

Please could you explain what faults you see in the EU?

I ask because everyone likes to say the EU has faults (and I don't doubt this is true) but no-one ever says what they are!

 

[anme]

The UK, unlike Switzerland, does not have legal protection against immigrant workers willing to live in poor conditions[1] dragging wages down.

[1] Some of them were living in illegal conditions, but this can even happen where they will accept legal but poor conditions in registered but very run-down HMOs.

I thought brexiters wanted to get rid of EU employment protections so that employees can be made to work longer hours in poorer conditions. Isn't that one of the claimed "benefits" of leaving the EU?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought brexiters wanted to get rid of EU employment protections so that employees can be made to work longer hours in poorer conditions. Isn't that one of the claimed "benefits" of leaving the EU?

That may be so, but is not a reason for avoiding discussion of issues caused by aspects of the EU.

 

[anme]

That may be so, but is not a reason for avoiding discussion of issues caused by aspects of the EU.

Are you arguing that leaving the EU will improve employment rights for people working in the UK? Because whatever failings the EU might have, I seriously doubt that will be the case.

It might be useful if you actually said what you think should happen, rather than making vague and unsubstantiated claims about the current situation. I am potentially in favour of measures to improve pay and quality of life for everyone, while at the same time being aware that people don't generally move half a continent away from their family and friends to work on poverty wages.

 

[class387]

Parliament to be suspended:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

The Queen will be asked by the government to suspend Parliament days after MPs return to work - and a matter of weeks before the Brexit deadline.

The BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, says it will make way for Boris Johnson's new administration to hold a Queen's Speech - laying out the government's future plans - on 14 October.

But it means MPs are unlikely to have time to pass any laws that could stop the prime minister taking the UK out of the EU without a deal on 31 October.

A No 10 source said: "It's time a new government and new PM set out a plan for the country after we leave the EU."

The idea of shutting down Parliament - known as prorogation - has caused controversy, with critics saying it would stop MPs being able to play their democratic part in the Brexit process.

Laura Kuenssberg said only a small number of government ministers knew about the plan and it was going to cause a huge row.

The UK is due to leave the EU on 31 October, with or without a deal.

Mr Johnson says he wants to leave with a deal, but it is "do or die" and he is willing to leave without one rather than miss the deadline.

That position has prompted a number of opposition MPs to come together to try to block a possible no deal, and on Tuesday they announced that they intended to use parliamentary process to do so.

But if Parliament is suspended on 10 September, it will only give them a few days next week to push for their changes.

 

[SHD]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

Take back control through prorogation of Parliament, incidentally putting HM in a most difficult position. Well done!

 

[anme]

Parliament to be suspended:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

It will be fun to see how people defend this!

 

[Journeyman]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

Take back control through prorogation of Parliament, incidentally putting HM in a most difficult position. Well done!

This is extremely serious and is making this country slide dangerously close to dictatorship. All I can say is that if he's dumb enough to do it, Boris will have blood on his hands and will have to face very, very serious consequences.

 

[najaB]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

Take back control through prorogation of Parliament, incidentally putting HM in a most difficult position. Well done!

Nice to see democracy in action and the primacy of parliament over the EU.

Oh, wait. This isn't that at all.

 

[433N]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

Take back control through prorogation of Parliament, incidentally putting HM in a most difficult position. Well done!

Words are not enough to express my hatred and contempt for this government.

I don't understand how even the most obsessed Brexiteer can agree with this. I am really hoping Her Maj tells him where to go.

Politics is about compromise ; Johnson is not good enough for that so prefers to install himself as dictator.

Disgusting.

(wonder how leavers will shift the blame for our move to dictatorship away from themselves).

 

[DarloRich]

Parliament to be suspended:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

absolutely outrageous. This is an act that wouldn't look out of place in a dictatorship. Disgraceful.

 

[SHD]

Nice to see democracy in action and the primacy of parliament over the EU.

Oh, wait. This isn't that at all.

"The doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters - they are going to get it wrong again.
[...]
Everyone knows the values that flag represents.

It stands for freedom and free speech and habeas corpus and the rule of law, and above all it stands for democracy.

And that is why we will come out of the EU on October 31.

Because in the end, Brexit was a fundamental decision by the British people that they wanted their laws made by people that they can elect and they can remove from office."

Is it not much easier for the British people when the removal from office is decided by the Prime Minister? Saves much hassle. Like Direct Debit, but for politicians.

 

[Geezertronic]

Politics is about compromise ; Johnson is not good enough for that so prefers to install himself as dictator.

Politics and Compromise are two words that are worlds apart and have been for a few years. This action from the PM has been on the cards since he became PM and is because of the reaction of those who want to stop Brexit at all costs (including via the blocking of No Deal route). All of this is undemocratic from both sides and it is all way past the point of ridiculous now from both sides

 

[Bletchleyite]

absolutely outrageous. This is an act that wouldn't look out of place in a dictatorship. Disgraceful.

It's essentially a bloodless coup.

 

[DarloRich]

Politics and Compromise are two words that are worlds apart and have been for a few years. This action from the PM has been on the cards since he became PM and is because of the reaction of those who want to stop Brexit at all costs (including via the blocking of No Deal route). All of this is undemocratic from both sides and it is all way past the point of ridiculous now from both sides

So we have reached a point where Parliament is seen as undemocratic. Jesus. This is the edge of the abyss.

 

[SHD]

It's essentially a bloodless coup.

Which would technically be a première in Britain (from memory, the last coup recorded was more bloody than well done)