Class 710 LO

[swt_passenger]

Where are the Watford line 378s going

By internal shuffle to provide for increased services on the other original LO routes, ie the ELL/WLL. It’s explained in an earlier post, I’ll find a link:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-710-lo.145774/page-2#post-3149821
They ultimately end up with 8 extra dual voltage units on the ELL.

One of the key points is that the ELL units need the cab escape door, so that’s why 6 new 5 car 710 units are being provided to the WLL/NLL, rather than building 6 new units to go directly to the ELL. IYSWIM...

 

[Chorley Cake]

710107 on Crewe Carriage Sidings this morning.

 

[Elshad]

By internal shuffle to provide for increased services on the other original LO routes, ie the ELL/WLL. It’s explained in an earlier post, I’ll find a link:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-710-lo.145774/page-2#post-3149821
They ultimately end up with 8 extra dual voltage units on the ELL.

One of the key points is that the ELL units need the cab escape door, so that’s why 6 new 5 car 710 units are being provided to the WLL/NLL, rather than building 6 new units to go directly to the ELL. IYSWIM...

So the WLL end up with a mix of 378s and 710s? Maybe they can segregate them and send one of them down to Richmond and the other to Clapham, for consistency.

 

[route101]

Yesterday , i was at Watford, boarded a 710 on P4 , i thought it was going into service as other people were getting on . Waited and waited , a 378 departed . Got told it was going nowwhere , someone must of left the doors open.

 

[Lukeo]

I was at Watford High Street yesterday in hopes of getting the 18:04 to Euston, but it was ‘Cancelled’ and that was after a 30 min gap in the timetable. So there was a 45-50 minute gap since the previous train. The sooner they get more 710s the better..

 

[swt_passenger]

So the WLL end up with a mix of 378s and 710s? Maybe they can segregate them and send one of them down to Richmond and the other to Clapham, for consistency.

Yes that’s how it reads, but up to six x five car 710s in service alongside a majority of 378s. Not sure how many combined NLL/WLL diagrams operate at a time, but I expect someone will have an idea.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely it will be easier to manage if all the 5 cars are allocated to the Watford DC lines in case control have to amend swap Class 378s around?

 

[JonathanH]

Surely it will be easier to manage if all the 5 cars are allocated to the Watford DC lines in case control have to amend swap Class 378s around?

Huh? There are 18 4-car 710s for the DC and Gospel Oak to Barking line which won't be used on the NLL. Doesn't look like any 5-cars on the DC lines in the future.

Diagrams are roughly 6 4-cars for the Gospel Oak to Barking line (but this increases with the Barking Riverside extension), 8 for Euston to Watford, low 20s for the North London Line with the rest on the East London Line.

Not enough 710s to dedicate them to one or other of the Richmond and Clapham Junction routes.

 

[Dstock7080]

So the WLL end up with a mix of 378s and 710s? Maybe they can segregate them and send one of them down to Richmond and the other to Clapham, for consistency.

Which is why the Richmond branch has recently been fitted with TPWS equipment.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely it will be easier to manage if all the 5 cars are allocated to the Watford DC lines in case control have to amend swap Class 378s around?

I think you’re missing a key feature of the overall changes, that the 5 car 710s are an exception to the normal part of this order, the other 48 units (710/1 and 710/2 combined) are all 4 car.

4 tph of 4 car using 8 units is the future service on the DC lines.

 

[ijmad]

Which is why the Richmond branch has recently been fitted with TPWS equipment.

That's interesting. Does anyone happen to know how many Richmond and Clapham diagrams there are on the NLL currently?

 

[swt_passenger]

That's interesting. Does anyone happen to know how many Richmond and Clapham diagrams there are on the NLL currently?

Not exactly but it can be estimated. When all the Clapham Jn trains are running through to Stratford in the peaks, it’s basically going to be 8 tph on the combined routes, and it’s about one hour end to end plus layovers, so about a 2h 30m round trip. Hence JonathanH’s post #1839 earlier referring to “low 20s on the NLL” - he’s including the WLL in that number.

 

[hwl]

That's interesting. Does anyone happen to know how many Richmond and Clapham diagrams there are on the NLL currently?

The NLL service level is going to be upped by 2tph so the current number of diagrams is academic...
The future Richmond service layover time in Stratford will be reduced so not a simple calculation to estimate exact requirements as the timetable won't be quite so clockface in the future.
The 5car 710 were mostly ordered to provide the uplift not backfill for 378s going elsewhere as in the Watford case.

 

[theking]

The 5 cars are ordered for the wll increase they will not be going on the DC.

The only reason they were ordered now was that TFL had an option to purchase at a price, if they did not order now the cost would have increased significantly.

There was talk in a board paper of warm storage or maybe even sub leasing them out to another operator until they were needed for the wll increase.

Now that tfl have got additional funding for the ell from the government future home fund or whatever it is, now depends on what will happen to the 710's as additional 378 may be needed if they add extra trains to clapham.

 

[Class 170101]

I was thinking Class 710s for Watford DC displacing Class 378s to NLL / WLL as control will need to watch that they don't send a Class 710 onto the Southern region. Also I doubt a Class 710 would be able to be assisted by a Class 378 in case of failure. Being on the DC means being near to base.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was thinking Class 710s for Watford DC displacing Class 378s to NLL / WLL as control will need to watch that they don't send a Class 710 onto the Southern region. Also I doubt a Class 710 would be able to be assisted by a Class 378 in case of failure. Being on the DC means being near to base.

Why can’t a 710 go to Richmond or Clapham Jn? I don’t think there’s random moves between Willesden based and New Cross Gate based units and their respective diagrams.

 

[ijmad]

Why can’t a 710 go to Richmond or Clapham Jn?

They can and they will, as I'm sure you know (but others in this thread seem a little confused).

To be crystal clear for others, eventual fleet will be as follows:

Lea Valley lines: Exclusively 4 car 710 (AC-only) operating in pairs
Watford DC: Exclusively 4 car 710 (AC/DC)
GOBLIN: Exclusively 4 car 710 (AC/DC)
East London line: Exclusively 5 car 378s only (as 710s don't have escape doors)
NLL/WLL: 5 car 378s and 5 car 710s mixed (both AC/DC)
Romford-Upminster: 4 car 710 (just the one)

 

[Class 170101]

Why can’t a 710 go to Richmond or Clapham Jn? I don’t think there’s random moves between Willesden based and New Cross Gate based units and their respective diagrams.

Tryng to prevent potential for swaps at Clapham Junction between WLL and ELL services as they can't go on ELL services.

 

[JonathanH]

Tryng to prevent potential for swaps at Clapham Junction between WLL and ELL services as they can't go on ELL services.

The number of timetabled swaps at Clapham Junction is very limited, if at all - it doesn't just happen on an unscheduled basis. I'm not sure it even happens.

 

[Class 170101]

The number of timetabled swaps at Clapham Junction is very limited, if at all - it doesn't just happen on an unscheduled basis. I'm not sure it even happens.

It would be the control swaps of greater concern.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be the control swaps of greater concern.

Control swaps?

Do you not think that the controllers can manage or plan them properly? The only reason to ever effect a swap at Clapham Junction is to move 378/2s between the two routes. If swaps are happening they also need to ensure that the incoming unit off the ELL is not a 378/1.

 

[JonathanH]

Swaps at Clapham Junction obviously happen - here is an example - unit comes from Dalston Junction and goes to Wembley Sidings.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0005-0016?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=LO

But they aren't numerous by any means.

 

[Mikey C]

I assume the Barking Riverside extension will require a slightly larger Goblin fleet, maybe 1 extra unit over what they need currently?

 

[87015]

All 378s are based at New Cross Gate so NLL/ELL swaps are essential to the fleets operation.

 

[JonathanH]

All 378s are based at New Cross Gate so NLL/ELL swaps are essential to the fleets operation.

I assume that whoever allocates units at the start of the day is highly proficient at ensuring which units need to swap on any given day and a few 710s in the mix won't make it any more difficult to arrange those swaps - ie the need to enable swaps doesn't mean that 710s can't go to Clapham Junction.

 

[ijmad]

I assume the Barking Riverside extension will require a slightly larger Goblin fleet, maybe 1 extra unit over what they need currently?

Nominally two more, as it's a fairly long way (about twice the average distance between other GOBLIN stops), and maybe (guessing) some brief waiting at Barking for free paths on the LTSR. I'd read (probably on lonrec) there are some aspirations to raise the frequency to 5tph although that's only possible between Gospel Oak and Barking, Barking Riverside will get 4tph for the foreseeable. With the 172s they were able to run the PIXC buster during the peaks effectively making the line 5ph for an hour between 8am and 9am so it certainly seems possible (not being run any more because 4tph x 4 cars is a lot more than 5tph x 2 cars!).

 

[swt_passenger]

I assume the Barking Riverside extension will require a slightly larger Goblin fleet, maybe 1 extra unit over what they need currently?

They’ve already got the 2 trains for Barking Riverside within the present 710 orders, it was part of the extra 9 units in total in the last increase to the contract in 2017.

 

[theking]

The units that transfer from Willesden to ELL for maintenance come as 10 or 5 cars empties they don't see Clapham Junction they go via the Kensington lines.

The ones that are transferred at Clapham Junction (like the rtt link above) are ones from NXG that have come from the shed/had their work done and are placed on those specific diagrams to transfer at the morning run out.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Swaps at Clapham Junction obviously happen - here is an example - unit comes from Dalston Junction and goes to Wembley Sidings.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0005-0016?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=LO

But they aren't numerous by any means.

I assume these are 378/2's ?

 

[Kite159]

I assume these are 378/2's ?

Would be 378/2s as the third rail runs out around North Pole