Why don’t Network Rail tidy up after themselves?

[ChiefPlanner]

Yeah, well, I’ve mellowed a bit. I didn’t have much patience when the sun was coming up, I still had a big hole in the track, and control on the phone, I can assure you.

Nicely put - getting the railway back on time has to be the right thing (in BR days , I at a busy location in East Anglia) ,did not overly worry about late hand back of possessions as they were generally very rare. The trains ran on schedule pretty well , and there was often a lot of work done on a late Saturday - Monday am on 2 track sections. However, evidence of the commitment to a right time handback could sometimes be seen where spoil and dug out ballast was flung onto the cutting / embankment sides .......

There were slots for "tidy weeks" in the CE annual calender. But then there were different contractual rules applying.

(and as for strategic storage of "handy rail sections" etc for unplanned use - I recall a fairly modest but nasty derailment on a single line (freight only) - where re-opening was massively helped by some sections of rail being recovered from the trackside , assisted by a couple of wagons of clean ballast which just happened to be on hand in a nearby yard. Derailment 0930 - line open by 1500. Major customers kept served , albeit late.

 

[Colin1501]

Possibly a bit off-topic, but may follow from the discussion above, can anyone tell me why - occasionally - old signal posts are left standing years after being taken out of use. Two examples that come to mind in the former SR area are Lyminster up distant (line resignalled 1979), and Faygate down distant (line resignalled 1984) which, I believe, still has its lamp and balance weight!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Possibly a bit off-topic, but may follow from the discussion above, can anyone tell me why - occasionally - old signal posts are left standing years after being taken out of use. Two examples that come to mind in the former SR area are Lyminster up distant (line resignalled 1979), and Faygate down distant (line resignalled 1984) which, I believe, still has its lamp and balance weight!

Am pretty sure that the up home signal post at Harrow and Wealdstone on the DC lines survived the resignalling of the route around 1988 - the answer is almost certainly it was missed on the commissioning period , not a problem as the cut-over was done , and not worth the considerable cost in removing said signal post. Must check next time if it still stands as an ex example of a "sentinel of safety" ....

 

[muddythefish]

Astonishing to see people in the Rail Industry say that it's okay to leave their junk everywhere because they haven't finished the job properly.

Agree with this.

The lineside generally is a poor state - even without the litter eyesore that is a national disgrace.

Case in point - the entrance to King's Cross station is strewn with plant and destritus from previous engineering works.

Does NR not have any pride in the condition of its estate?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I thought that there are major engineering works *currently in progress* at King’s Cross (for re-instating a third pair of approach tracks).

 

[DarloRich]

Case in point - the entrance to King's Cross station is strewn with plant and destritus from previous engineering works.

Anyone would think there were major engineering works going on in the area. Perhaps loads of possession time should be used to mount and demount site every day. That should be efficient!

( BTW this shows the point I have been attacked for making about enthusiasts and the real world of railway operations!)

Agree with this.

but but but no one has suggested the point you agree with is right!I an others have simply sought to offer you context as to why this situation might occur. Sadly you ( and others) refuse to acknowledge reality. (Argh!)

This is the scenario I used previously that I am yet to hear from an expert on. Perhaps you might like to comment:

Lets look at the reality of the railway shall we?

Its 0400, its Monday morning, it is dark, cold and raining. You are wet and fed up. You have had a couple of problems in your possession eating up your contingency time, you took your possession behind schedule due to last trains running late. You have to get the line open by 0600 for the first train to London or face a massive row and you have 3 hours of work left including rounding up all the waste/scrap and getting all your men and equipment off site, However you can get the job finished and the line open in two hours if you leave the waste it for another day

What are you going to do:

a) declare an overrun for scrap and waste collection ( and face all the problems that go with that)
b) leave it, get the job finished and hope to come back later

And please don't tell me the job should be planned differently or that you should have more men or equipment or time. That may be true but you don't have them.

 

[HSTEd]

None of this material affects the operation of the railway or presents any sort of significant public hazard.

Removing it takes time and costs money which could be expended far more usefully.

 

[Djgr]

None of this material affects the operation of the railway or presents any sort of significant public hazard.

Removing it takes time and costs money which could be expended far more usefully.

And the same argument could be used in favour of flytipping.

 

[mmh]

And the same argument could be used in favour of flytipping.

No, it really couldn't. If I want to leave building material in my garden (and there is some) providing it's not harmful to anyone else it's nobody else's business. I haven't flytipped it, I've just left it there.

 

[AM9]

And the same argument could be used in favour of flytipping.

No, it's totally different to fly tipping:

a) the thread is talking about items left trackside, which are material and tools that are authorised to be on railway land. Items that are fly tipped can be anything including hazardous materials, e.g. asbestos
b) access to the railway land is controlled whereas fly tipping is usually on public highways or anywhere the culprits find suitable for illegal dumping
c) leaving things on the railway is within the law, whereas flytipping is very illegal​

So not much use in justifying fly tipping then.

 

[HSTEd]

And the same argument could be used in favour of flytipping.

If the railway was dumping material in adjacent gardens or on roads near the railway, this would be true.
But it is not.
This is more akin to leaving building rubble in your own garden.

 

[Djgr]

No, it really couldn't. If I want to leave building material in my garden (and there is some) providing it's not harmful to anyone else it's nobody else's business. I haven't flytipped it, I've just left it there.

But as a paying customer it's MY business. The railway is run for customers not for staff.

 

[AM9]

But as a paying customer it's MY business. The railway is run for customers not for staff.

There's no emogee with that post so I assume that you are being serious. The railway is run to transport customers safely, and in (relatively) clean and comfortable conditions. That include stations as well as on board trains. You are not entitled to any particular view out of the window, pleasant or mundane, it is what it is. Get over it.

 

[HSTEd]

But as a paying customer it's MY business. The railway is run for customers not for staff.

Some debris being on the trackside as trains pass at speed hardly impacts the travelling environment of the passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

But as a paying customer it's MY business. The railway is run for customers not for staff.

May I ask - when you drive on the motorway, and through roadworks, do you expect the roadworks contractor to have removed all the plant and material, lighting etc they need when they are not working?

 

[6Gman]

When there are materials left there for years it does seem to show the waste of money that the railway can sometimes be.

At Poulton le Fylde there were full 1t bags of ballast there for YEARS, slowly being eaten by the undergrowth from the embankment.

When the railways are begging for investment, it’s a bit of a slap in the public’s face to see expensive materials wasted at the lineside for years.

But if the cost of retrieving it is greater than the value of the material?

Happens on the roads as well. Contractor leaves a sign behind that costs £30 to buy; sending a van to collect it would cost £35. So the sign is left.

 

[Djgr]

May I ask - when you drive on the motorway, and through roadworks, do you expect the roadworks contractor to have removed all the plant and material, lighting etc they need when they are not working?

I don't expect it still be there five years after the roadworks are finished.

 

[Djgr]

There's no emogee with that post so I assume that you are being serious. The railway is run to transport customers safely, and in (relatively) clean and comfortable conditions. That include stations as well as on board trains. You are not entitled to any particular view out of the window, pleasant or mundane, it is what it is. Get over it.

You are wrong. The railway is there to provide what customers and society WANT it to provide. If they want you to deal with waste in a more responsible way then ultimately that's what you will do, if necessary by force of change of law.

 

[AM9]

You are wrong. The railway is there to provide what customers and society WANT it to provide. If they want you to deal with waste in a more responsible way then ultimately that's what you will do, if necessary by force of change of law.

Whas has how I deal with waste got to do with anything?

 

[Scott1]

You are wrong. The railway is there to provide what customers and society WANT it to provide. If they want you to deal with waste in a more responsible way then ultimately that's what you will do, if necessary by force of change of law.

To be fair passenger numbers are up year on year, and of the many complaints I've had over the years none have been about scrap rail and clips left behind, so I'm guessing this is low on most passengers concerns.

 

[AM9]

To be fair passenger numbers are up year on year, and of the many complaints I've had over the years none have been about scrap rail and clips left behind, so I'm guessing this is low on most passengers concerns.

What a bizarre claim. I don't think he has a clue about what passengers other than him WANT, and that is assuming that there wouldn't be a knock-on cost of extended works programmes and increased fares.

 

[CJK64]

Any scrap lying around should be close called and removed as a result.
As has been mentioned often the scrap is left behind due to time constraints but measures should still be put in place to remove, ie through the hand back process (AMP ) all completed work can be handed back to the relevant party with the scrap removal to become a snagging issue. An Amp 16 will be issued and the scrap removal should remain with the AMP 16 holder until removed.

 

[The Snap]

DarloRich and some others seem to be taking a lot of flack here from people who are on the outside looking in, for not trying to defend the railway’s poor housekeeping but merely explain the reasoning.

I am a Project Manager for a Principle Contractor working the length of the WCML, and have done for nearly 10 years, so I’m sure that I’d be one of the more experienced people on this forum in this particular field. I can say with absolute certainty that what DarloRich is saying is accurate.

Cost and time, more than anything else, are the driver behind leaving stuff behind at the end of possessions and not recovering it. If say 10 bags of ballast are left in the cess at the end of a job and time ran out to take them back to the yard, it could easily cost 10, if not 20, times the amount the ballast is worth to actually go and recover it. So what’s the point? If push comes to shove and I’m working to a tight budget, if I t’s more than 2m from the line and is too heavy to be moved by hand (by vandals for example), leave it where it is and forget about it.

Now, as I’ve said previously, I’m not condoning leaving an untidy site. I’m just explain how the priorities work in the real world - time and cost wins every single time. As CJK64 points out above quite rightly above, the AMP process covers the issue of left behind materials and usually forces those who left it there to remove it. That said, it’s not always enforced given people’s workloads and just gets forgotten about or overlooked.

 

[The Snap]

I don't expect it still be there five years after the roadworks are finished.

You are wrong. The railway is there to provide what customers and society WANT it to provide. If they want you to deal with waste in a more responsible way then ultimately that's what you will do, if necessary by force of change of law.

LOL. The railways are not owned by the people. They are private property and therefore it is up to the owner (Network Rail) to deal with waste how they see fit, within the bounds of the law of course (eg: recycling, licenses tips and scrap merchants, waste management plans, COSHH etc).

If they choose to leave the infrastructure looking untidy due to the reasons I’ve already outlined, that’s their prerogative. Just because you don’t “expect” it...so what? Don’t use the railways if you don’t like it....

 

[Llanigraham]

But as a paying customer it's MY business. The railway is run for customers not for staff.

If we follow that "argument" to it's logical conclusion, you are therefore happy that many routes would be closed for long periods because Possessions have been extended for many hours to remove all the waste produced during the work?

 

[boing_uk]

But if the cost of retrieving it is greater than the value of the material?

Happens on the roads as well. Contractor leaves a sign behind that costs £30 to buy; sending a van to collect it would cost £35. So the sign is left.

No it isnt, because any good streetworks team operating under the permit scheme will issue a S74 FPN. Nice little earner.

And to DarloRich, not quite sure what you're getting at about rail enthusiasts. I'm certainly not one. I'm an Engineer on Highways and have been for 20 years - so infrastructure and operations is where my interest lies.

Yes I know full well there are limitations on everything - be that manpower, resource, possession limits, works type etc. I do have to deal with NR on occasion. The point that I was making is that tidying up a bit isnt impossible. But you are quick to jump down throats and your attitude on here on certain subjects stinks - especially when theres a view that's slightly contrary to your own.

Perhaps you should consider your words, especially when you're "making points" that dont need to be made. We're not all gooey-eyed trainspotters.

 

[boing_uk]

And just to clarify, I'm not saying that there should be special exercises to collect materials ASAP after works or any other assumed minutiae you think I might be implying.

And yes, strategic spares dotted around the place also good. Nor am I even saying that ballast shoulders should be ruler straight and all embankments neatly trimmed.

Some subsequent posts by other "non railway" types are plainly ridiculous in both expectation and tone. Flytipping? lolz.

If it helps clarify my original point; leaving excessive amounts of materials around the network is perhaps a little inefficient and perhaps, considering the taxpayer and customers are footing the bill for all this, that SOMETIMES, OCCASIONALLY, WHEN ITS EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE TO DO SO, that material could be recovered in a perhaps more organised fashion for reuse in to maintenance stock or whatever.

So please dont start harping on about the why cants and the high costs of whatever. Each site and situation and reasons why is unique I get it!

For such an innocuous and pretty unimportant post, I wasnt quite expecting the clamour that resulted.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes I know full well there are limitations on everything - be that manpower, resource, possession limits, works type etc. I do have to deal with NR on occasion. The point that I was making is that tidying up a bit isnt impossible. But you are quick to jump down throats and your attitude on here on certain subjects stinks - especially when theres a view that's slightly contrary to your own.

Perhaps you should consider your words, especially when you're "making points" that dont need to be made. We're not all gooey-eyed trainspotters.

I will make whatever points I feel fit, especially when I consider other posters to be talking out of their hat. I don't care what people think about me and my patience for trying to educate the experts here is almost non existent. if you don't like that then complain.

BTW I have also worked on roads projects and they are MILES different to railway work and much less complicated to arrange and deliver. I would love to be able to work ( or more accurately not work if the M1 is anything to go by ) adjacent line open to traffic as much as you can on the roads!

If it helps clarify my original point; leaving excessive amounts of materials around the network is perhaps a little inefficient and perhaps, considering the taxpayer and customers are footing the bill for all this, that SOMETIMES, OCCASIONALLY, WHEN ITS EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE TO DO SO, that material could be recovered in a perhaps more organised fashion for reuse in to maintenance stock or whatever.

I don't disagree. Sites SHOULD be cleared up. Rubbish SHOULD be collected after works. I simply ask for some acceptance that it is harder than many here will ever acknowledge. Even saying go back later isnt as easy as it sounds because of the way much of the network is used and the limited access opportunities to get at it. Then we have to consider the limited manpower and the competing priorities they are under: Are you going to cancel a broken rail job to pick up waste

Like many things if we want this to happen we need to allow more access. That means fewer passenger and freight trains running and more men on the pay roll. That means more cost to you and me.................

 

[Elecman]

I don't expect it still be there five years after the roadworks are finished.

You’ve obviously not driven down the M55 as all the cones barriers etc protecting the railway bridge are still there nearly 2 years after the works were completed on both carriageways along with the Hard Shoulder closure.

 

[SteveM70]

You’ve obviously not driven down the M55 as all the cones barriers etc protecting the railway bridge are still there nearly 2 years after the works were completed on both carriageways along with the Hard Shoulder closure.

Bring back John Major’s cones hotline!!