Why don’t Network Rail tidy up after themselves?

[boing_uk]

could you explain how someone should pick them up and when? Are you going to close the railway line to do that?

Why does picking up a few little bits of waste involve closing a railway for hours?

In this case, 30 minutes with a forklift and out the station car park via the access gates.

And yes they shouldn’t have been left there; they were left from when they rebuilt Poulton junction.

Lines are closed all the time for various maintenance activities; what little work does it take to tidy up?

We’d get crucified if we left all our crap out on the road, left expensive piles of aggregate and material all over the place all bought and discarded on the taxpayers tab.

 

[Djgr]

Astonishing to see people in the Rail Industry say that it's okay to leave their junk everywhere because they haven't finished the job properly.

 

[boing_uk]

It is a sign of inefficiency if large amounts of material are allowed to go to waste.

Yes it may be only tens of pounds in a particular location - but when that’s spread across the thousands of miles of the network, then those tens of pounds add up.

 

[The Snap]

Lines are closed all the time for various maintenance activities; what little work does it take to tidy up?

Unfortunately because possessions are so short and so infrequent in many locations (one shift per week), cleaning up materials left from previous jobs falls to the bottom of the list. There is more important work to be done during the limited access available than rounding up and bringing in old materials. The cost associated with doing it also makes it nonviable - an RRV with trailer, operator, MC and a few lads to load the gear will cost anything between £5k and £10k depending on location. Why spend that money collecting old materials to take back to the yard when you could use the RRV to deliver proper work such as fault corrections?

I totally get the perception thing, but unfortunately this is the way of the railway. Time and money are priorities (after safety) so tidying up after others comes last.

(All the above said, there is no reason why we cant tidy up after ourselves unless we run out of time).

 

[DarloRich]

Astonishing to see people in the Rail Industry say that it's okay to leave their junk everywhere because they haven't finished the job properly.

Goodness me. No one is suggesting that at all. What I want is the experts here to understand some of the challenges involved in delivering work on the railway. Sadly, I suspect that will prove impossible because it will mean challenging the lazy assumptions that underpin the views of many here.

Why does picking up a few little bits of waste involve closing a railway for hours?

In this case, 30 minutes with a forklift and out the station car park via the access gates.

And yes they shouldn’t have been left there; they were left from when they rebuilt Poulton junction.

Lines are closed all the time for various maintenance activities; what little work does it take to tidy up?

We’d get crucified if we left all our crap out on the road, left expensive piles of aggregate and material all over the place all bought and discarded on the taxpayers tab.

This is exactly the problem I set out above. You have no idea what you are talking about. All i ask is that you and others try to grasp the realities of life. They are somewhat different to the perfect world in which you and other experts live.

I wonder if you ( and others) have much experience of working on railway maintenance and renewal sites. Do you even care what the realities of those jobs are?

BTW The comparison with leaving materials next to the road is specious at best but more accurately fatuous and hardly worthy of comment.

It is a sign of inefficiency if large amounts of material are allowed to go to waste.

Yes it may be only tens of pounds in a particular location - but when that’s spread across the thousands of miles of the network, then those tens of pounds add up.

I do wish the real world was as simple as you and others made out!

(All the above said, there is no reason why we cant tidy up after ourselves unless we run out of time).

That and available resources are the biggest challenges. Sadly you are wasting your time trying to educate here.

 

[mmh]

I can see the issue over perception. The press and public get more worked up over trivia like free biscuits than over major waste.

I doubt the average, non-enthusiast, takes a blind bit of notice of a bag of ballast or a discarded rail. Seemingly abandoned to rot rolling stock they might do, be it the extreme of the Crewe class 90 graveyard or the other extreme of a depot full of unused class 345s though, on the other hand.

 

[Darandio]

Why does picking up a few little bits of waste involve closing a railway for hours?

In this case, 30 minutes with a forklift and out the station car park via the access gates.

And yes they shouldn’t have been left there; they were left from when they rebuilt Poulton junction.

Lines are closed all the time for various maintenance activities; what little work does it take to tidy up?

We’d get crucified if we left all our crap out on the road, left expensive piles of aggregate and material all over the place all bought and discarded on the taxpayers tab.

Imagine that taking away £250 worth of ballast is a job that costs £2-£3k. You would be straight back here telling us how that is a waste of taxpayers money.

 

[DarloRich]

Imagine that taking away £250 worth of ballast is a job that costs £2-£3k. You would be straight back here telling us how that is a waste of taxpayers money.

Clearly the stuff shouldn't be left. Reality is that it will be and getting back in to collect it is very hard

 

[chorleyjeff]

And in the event of a train evacuation? Or if the driver needs to get between two units with no corridor connection to reset a pass com and finds the cess full of contractors debris leaving no safe walking route?

I knew an ex driver who got out of his DMU cab at night to use the phone when stopped at a signal. He tripped on debris at the side of the track and because of the injuries sustained could no longer work as a driver. That was debris and not items left for future work.

 

[Llanigraham]

Public perception though; a pile of £50 bags of ballast going to waste is still material going to waste when the railways are clamouring about money and ticket prices are constantly rising...

I think you overestimate how much the general public care or even notice!

 

[boing_uk]

Imagine that taking away £250 worth of ballast is a job that costs £2-£3k. You would be straight back here telling us how that is a waste of taxpayers money.

And why on earth would removal of debris cost £2-£3k?

What is being hired in? An ainscough crane?

Perhaps, maybe, if it were a one-off possession just to remove some small item; but there are TONS of material knocking around the network as waste that could easily be collected during normal maintenance activities with a bit of forethought.

One would have thought it would be in the railways best interest to not have potential obstructions, walking hazards or just valuable stock haphazardly left about the network.

I’m not even sure why you’re taking the stance that it’s acceptable or justified.

 

[Darandio]

I’m not even sure why you’re taking the stance that it’s acceptable or justified.

I've said neither. It's completely unacceptable and should be completely avoided. But there are perfectly valid reasons as to why it isn't happening.

 

[DarloRich]

And why on earth would removal of debris cost £2-£3k? What is being hired in? An ainscough crane?

Potentially, yes! You simply refuse to see that it isnt as easy or straight forward as simply popping down and picking something up.

Perhaps, maybe, if it were a one-off possession just to remove some small item; but there are TONS of material knocking around the network as waste that could easily be collected during normal maintenance activities with a bit of forethought.

is that right? Could you explain how? Have you much experience of arranging and delivering work on the railway? Have you any ideas about the safety requirment sneedde ot access the railway line?

One would have thought it would be in the railways best interest to not have potential obstructions, walking hazards or just valuable stock haphazardly left about the network.

I’m not even sure why you’re taking the stance that it’s acceptable or justified.

Could you point out where it has been stated this is acceptable? I simply ask epxerts like you to acknowledge that things are not as easy as it looks from your warm armchiar on a sunny afternoon.

 

[boing_uk]

Potentially, yes! You simply refuse to see that it isnt as easy or straight forward as simply popping down and picking something up.



is that right? Could you explain how? Have you much experience of arranging and delivering work on the railway? Have you any ideas about the safety requirment sneedde ot access the railway line?



Could you point out where it has been stated this is acceptable? I simply ask epxerts like you to acknowledge that things are not as easy as it looks from your warm armchiar on a sunny afternoon.

Wow chill out, Mr Angrychair

I think you’re taking the point I’m making far too extreme and, if I may say, ridiculously over-defensive.

Nowhere have I said that things should be picked up immediately, as has been said, would not be cost effective.

But it *could* be done as a matter of course, but isn’t in the majority of cases.

Please stop trying to presuppose my position. And I will point out I’m actually sat on the bog right now; not quite as comfy as my all-knowing armchair.

 

[DarloRich]

But it *could* be done as a matter of course, but isn’t in the majority of cases.

could you explain how you think this could be done considering the pressure on resources and the competing delivery priorities? I ask again how will the followinf statement play out

....... and in travel news the West Cast Main line is shut this morning to allow for 3 lengths of scrap rail to be collected...............

or

Sorry Mr Branson but the maintenance work this evening has to be cancelled and we have put a 25mph ESR on as we have to collect 3 ballast bags

I think you’re taking the point I’m making far too extreme and, if I may say, ridiculously over-defensive.

far from it. I am simply asking for a dose of reality.

 

[mmh]

And why on earth would removal of debris cost £2-£3k?

What is being hired in? An ainscough crane?

2-3k sounds cheap to me. It's expensive because most of it is in the middle of nowhere, heavy, only accessible by rail, and yes you would need lifting equipment for much of it.

Perhaps, maybe, if it were a one-off possession just to remove some small item; but there are TONS of material knocking around the network as waste that could easily be collected during normal maintenance activities with a bit of forethought.

When are you realistically going to remove discarded rail except next time you lay new track? That might not happen for years or decades. A maintenance gang with little more than shovels and spanners won't be doing it.

I can't find it, but recently there was a thread noting that discarded rail was being cut up and removed at Llandudno in the middle of the night. So perhaps it does happen, or that could have been coincidental to other work.

A problem not mentioned so far is that there will probably be many cases where it's just not known that something is there.

There was an analogy about similar not happening with roads - it certainly does. Not piles of rubble obviously but it's hardly unknown for temporary signs and barriers etc to be left behind. They'll generally get removed when a council (if it's not theirs!) notices or a resident complains.

You can't see it, but underneath your wheels and feet is a countless amount of unused utility infrastructure. BT and its predecessors are particularly notorious for this. Mile after mile of obsolete unused cables. Usually nobody has a record of it existing.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Clearly the stuff shouldn't be left. Reality is that it will be and getting back in to collect it is very hard

Indeed. It shouldn't be left there in the first place. The job should be planned and costed to include leaving the site tidy. It is about self respect of the railways as a whole. There will be times when a job overruns and the stuff is left because there simply isn't time but they should be the exception. Stuff is left that could easily be placed on the track by anyone so inclined. It isn't right.

 

[talltim]

could you explain how you think this could be done considering the pressure on resources and the competing delivery priorities? I ask again how will the followinf statement play out

....... and in travel news the West Cast Main line is shut this morning to allow for 3 lengths of scrap rail to be collected...............

or

Sorry Mr Branson but the maintenance work this evening has to be cancelled and we have put a 25mph ESR on as we have to collect 3 ballast bags





far from it. I am simply asking for a dose of reality.

Why are you being so antagonistic? I know its your style, but...
Of course you don't go your hyperbolic route of shutting a line to remove scrap or over-ordered materials, you make a plan to remove them next time there is a block for some maintenance.

 

[Llanigraham]

And why on earth would removal of debris cost £2-£3k?

What is being hired in? An ainscough crane?

It could easily cost that or more, and your comments show that you obviously do not understand how the railway works.
Many "left items" will need a specific type of vehicle to come and collect them, be that a complete train with a hi-ab for heavy items, to a team of men with a rail hand trolley to take them to an access point. Both will require specific safety regulations to be met and signalling possessions to be arranged.

Perhaps, maybe, if it were a one-off possession just to remove some small item; but there are TONS of material knocking around the network as waste that could easily be collected during normal maintenance activities with a bit of forethought.

And as has been explained to you many of those small items are there for a purpose and not "dumped" or they are waiting for a suitable time and equipment to remove them.

One would have thought it would be in the railways best interest to not have potential obstructions, walking hazards or just valuable stock haphazardly left about the network.

I’m not even sure why you’re taking the stance that it’s acceptable or justified.

Both!!

 

[Llanigraham]

Why are you being so antagonistic? I know its your style, but...
Of course you don't go your hyperbolic route of shutting a line to remove scrap or over-ordered materials, you make a plan to remove them next time there is a block for some maintenance.

But that presumes that the staff and equipment needed to remove it is available, and often it isn't.

 

[chorleyjeff]

could you explain how you think this could be done considering the pressure on resources and the competing delivery priorities? I ask again how will the followinf statement play out

....... and in travel news the West Cast Main line is shut this morning to allow for 3 lengths of scrap rail to be collected...............

or

Sorry Mr Branson but the maintenance work this evening has to be cancelled and we have put a 25mph ESR on as we have to collect 3 ballast bags





far from it. I am simply asking for a dose of reality.

Your comments need a dose of reality also.
Your defence of your train set is way beyond sensible or reasonable.
And as such your case is seriously weakened.

 

[Llanigraham]

Your comments need a dose of reality also.
Your defence of your train set is way beyond sensible or reasonable.
And as such your case is seriously weakened.

Is it?
I would suggest that Darlo's response are very accurate, sensible and reasonable, and certainly concur with my observations about what the real world is out on the railway. It really is not as simplistic as some here seem to think.

 

[Ploughman]

Is one of the causes a lack of time to complete the job at the end of the possession?
If so, instead of going for a 1000m rerail why not plan for an 800m job instead leaving a bit extra time each possession to clear up behind.
This may (Will) mean that a job needs more possessions, so what?
If a job needs the time to do it right first time then that is what it should get.

I think we need to get away from the mentality of going for the maximum possible and instead go for a more reasonable and achievable output.


On the subject of ballast bags.
The use of bags is a fairly recent practice from the early 2000's.
How was the supply of the ballast done before?
Use a Ballast train.

What is the cost of the use of bags against use of a train on the night?
£50/bag was mentioned, earlier multipy that by the amount of bags on some sites stacked in Berlin Wall style.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having planned and managed maintenance and renewals work, and done a stint on the shovel, I may be able to help here.

1) it is simply not the case that all works leave waste material behind. Far from it. A majority of jobs do clear up after ‘themselves’. But naturally, there is no evidence of that, as it’s all been taken away!

2) many materials left behind are done so deliberately - stretches of rail, sleepers, ballast bags, etc etc. This is so that when a short notice repair is required the team don’t have far to go to find materials. Some of this will be in situ for decades, and yes it may have weeds growing through it, but aside from looking a bit messy that’s by the by. Almost everything that looks ‘new’ left behind is done so deliberately.

3) heavy maintenance and renewals jobs will usually over order materials, and some will end up being left behind until it can be collected. Some people will say over ordering is ‘inefficiency’. I would say it is good planning. I’d rather end up with 10 bags of ballast too much than 10 too few at 0230 on a Monday morning.

4) collecting up scrap / waste etc from a job is always planned in. However sometimes the resources (plant, labour, access) are diverted for more urgent jobs, and it will need replanning. If it is not a threat to safety or performance it will be given the lowest priority, which is usually at least 6 months away, and preferably at a time when the access / resources are already in the area for similar work.

 

[Dr Hoo]

At least surplus ballast in bags has the potential to be recovered for use elsewhere.

I hate to break this to younger members but in the old days when too much ballast was tipped it just stayed there, being gradually incorporated into the banks. Forget any idea that the local platelayer dutifully put a few chunks in his pocket every time he walked the length so that it could be tossed into a wagon to go back to Meldon, Machen or wherever.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is one of the causes a lack of time to complete the job at the end of the possession?
If so, instead of going for a 1000m rerail why not plan for an 800m job instead leaving a bit extra time each possession to clear up behind.
This may (Will) mean that a job needs more possessions, so what?

The ‘so whats’ are:

1) If the rerailing needed is 1000m, doing 800m isn’t enough!
2) possessions can be very expensive. There are some routes where an overnight 6h possession can cost several tens of thousands of pounds, and a few where it can be 6 figures. If you need two possessions when 1 is (usually) enough, then it is definitely right to ‘buy’ just one.

 

[DarloRich]

Why are you being so antagonistic? I know its your style, but...
Of course you don't go your hyperbolic route of shutting a line to remove scrap or over-ordered materials, you make a plan to remove them next time there is a block for some maintenance.

I am being slightly difficult to make a point: That the real world and the enthusiast world are very different. It looks easy to fix problems for a nice chair on a sunny afternoon. It is much harder on a wet, cold Monday morning at 04:00. I wonder if many here have tried it. All I ask is the reality of the world is acknowledged.

Your comments need a dose of reality also.
Your defence of your train set is way beyond sensible or reasonable.
And as such your case is seriously weakened.

What bit of reality do you think I am missing that you and others posses? Perhaps you could educate me. Honestly, most of you have no idea what you are talking about. We have a poster above suggesting a fork lift truck be used to recover something on the side of the railway as if you can just drive up to the material as you might in a nice, closed, safe factory! I wish things were that simple.

Indeed. It shouldn't be left there in the first place. The job should be planned and costed to include leaving the site tidy. It is about self respect of the railways as a whole. There will be times when a job overruns and the stuff is left because there simply isn't time but they should be the exception. Stuff is left that could easily be placed on the track by anyone so inclined. It isn't right.

Lets look at the reality of the railway shall we?

Its 0400, its Monday morning, it is dark, cold and raining. You are wet and fed up. You have had a couple of problems in your possession eating up your contingency time, you took your possession took behind schedule due to last trains running late. You have to get the line open by 0600 for the first train to London or face a massive row and you have 3 hours of work left including rounding up all the waste/scrap and getting all your men and equipment off site, However you can get the job finished and the line open in two hours if you leave the waste it for another day

What are you going to do:

a) declare an overrun for scrap and waste collection ( and face all the problems that go with that)
b) leave it, get the job finished and hope to come back later

And please don't tell me the job should be planned differently or that you should have more men or equipment or time. That may be true but you don't have them.

I would like to say that @Bald Rick has much more patience than me and I am grateful to him.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would like to say that @Bald Rick has much more patience than me and I am grateful to him.

Yeah, well, I’ve mellowed a bit. I didn’t have much patience when the sun was coming up, I still had a big hole in the track, and control on the phone, I can assure you.

 

[GB]

I was on a job last weekend where the job was just an engineering train collecting scrap materials from previous works. I don't know how long the scrap had been at the side of the track but does shows the railways do make an effort....even if not to RUK timescales.

 

[The Planner]

2) possessions can be very expensive. There are some routes where an overnight 6h possession can cost several tens of thousands of pounds, and a few where it can be 6 figures. If you need two possessions when 1 is (usually) enough, then it is definitely right to ‘buy’ just one.

Indeed, and if it requires a disruptive possession you need to get the agreement of the TOCs who are quite likely to say "you want to stop our services to tidy up?, come back when you are doing some other work"