How could Southeastern get more siding/depot space?

[brad465]

The lack of storage space on the SE Network has widely been discussed in many threads relating to the future of the franchise and the problems expanding train capacity. However I haven't found a thread on this specific issue, so thought I would ask where extra space could be utilised?

Reopening part of Chart Leacon is already being considered in relation to Thameslink services to Ashford, but that on its own won't be enough to meet future stock requirements. Other things I thought of that "seem possible" are:

- Takeover some of the Hoo Junction yard
- Use old Crossrail site land at Plumstead (When said project is complete)
- Make the unusable carriage siding at Dartford safe to use again (around 16 cars long)

 

[yorksrob]

How about reopening the whole of Chart Leacon

 

[brad465]

How about reopening the whole of Chart Leacon

Agreed, if SE/Network rail really care about sorting out capacity they should go the whole hog and do that, rather than the very minimum to get 700s stored down that way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Plumstead will be repurposed as a Crossrail stabling and infrastructure maintenance depot, I don’t think any becomes available to Southeastern.

 

[londonteacher]

Large space between Plumstead and Woolwich Arsenal which could be used for some extra tracks, an extra pair at least.

 

[brad465]

Having been through Canterbury East today there appears to be some old siding land beyond the Dover end of the platforms; perhaps a couple of sidings there could store the late weekday CBE terminators that currently go to the Faversham sidings overnight, freeing those up for something else (or an alternative stock arrangement)?

 

[RichJF]

I'm going for a long shot. Spare disused sidings south of Redhill. Bearing in mind SE drivers regularly drive this route to Tonridge I'd have thought the disused sidings in between the Tonbridge Line & BML might be an outside shout for class 375s.

Farnigham Road spur? No longer used so you have two tracks you could store some units on & fence off.

Electrify 2/3 of the sidings at Paddock Wood next to Platform 3?

You can also use the 3rd rail RES siding at Tonbridge too.

 

[cav1975]

Gillingham to Chatham Docks branch?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It is worth stating that there's not much point putting stabling space in the middle of nowhere - it's far more resource-sensible to put it near existing train crew depots.

Realistically:
- Open all of Chart Leacon for Thameslink and a bit of Southeastern stuff / whoever finally runs Marshlink.
- Leave Newtown and parts of Down Yard for Southeastern.
- Move Thameslink to Hoo Junction including CET etc; means all of Gillingham is for Southeastern.
- Re-model Folkestone East to get 5 roads instead of 3.
- 4 sidings for Thameslink at Bellingham, 2 at Sevenoaks (other stabling in platforms at Orpington)
- Some expansion of Grove Park where possible; with DB Cargo / freight only using 3 roads and then using Hoo etc for others.
- Expand Plumstead for Southeastern.
- Re-model and increase the size of Slade Green.
- Re-model and slightly increase Dartford.
- Outstabling at Cannon St, Victoria (including Grosvenor), Charing Cross and any other terminus or loop platforms as possible.

 

[Terry Tait]

Never a problem in the past, what is the problem now?

 

[brad465]

Never a problem in the past, what is the problem now?

If you mean storage capacity shortage wasn't a problem before; SE has serious overcrowding problems on certain routes, in line with rail travel in general increasing over the years. However it cannot expand its fleet size because what SE has, along with TL's 700s, takes all siding/depot space up now.
Much of the Metro network for example got 12-car upgrades to sidings and platforms in the early-mid part of this decade, including a complete remodelling of Gravesend, but stock limitations mean not many services can be 12 car (GRV has benefited from a 3rd platform though).

If SE was able to get more storage space the current/future operator (that's another story entirely) could expand the fleet, either with additional stock on top of what exists already, or replacing current fleets with a new fleet totalling more carriages than there are currently.

 

[Terry Tait]

If you mean storage capacity shortage wasn't a problem before; SE has serious overcrowding problems on certain routes, in line with rail travel in general increasing over the years. However it cannot expand its fleet size because what SE has, along with TL's 700s, takes all siding/depot space up now.
Much of the Metro network for example got 12-car upgrades to sidings and platforms in the early-mid part of this decade, including a complete remodelling of Gravesend, but stock limitations mean not many services can be 12 car (GRV has benefited from a 3rd platform though).

If SE was able to get more storage space the current/future operator (that's another story entirely) could expand the fleet, either with additional stock on top of what exists already, or replacing current fleets with a new fleet totalling more carriages than there are currently.

I could have worded that better,
I think back to the days of EPB / CEP / VEP etc there was rather more rolling stock than now and the Hastings trains were kept at sidings at Ore

 

[Daz28]

It is worth stating that there's not much point putting stabling space in the middle of nowhere - it's far more resource-sensible to put it near existing train crew depots.

Realistically:
- Open all of Chart Leacon for Thameslink and a bit of Southeastern stuff / whoever finally runs Marshlink.
- Leave Newtown and parts of Down Yard for Southeastern.
- Move Thameslink to Hoo Junction including CET etc; means all of Gillingham is for Southeastern.
- Re-model Folkestone East to get 5 roads instead of 3.
- 4 sidings for Thameslink at Bellingham, 2 at Sevenoaks (other stabling in platforms at Orpington)
- Some expansion of Grove Park where possible; with DB Cargo / freight only using 3 roads and then using Hoo etc for others.
- Expand Plumstead for Southeastern.
- Re-model and increase the size of Slade Green.
- Re-model and slightly increase Dartford.
- Outstabling at Cannon St, Victoria (including Grosvenor), Charing Cross and any other terminus or loop platforms as possible.

Slade Green expansion is the obvious candidate, land is available to expand eastwards, and possibly using the triangle which must already be railway land.

An off the wall suggestion, but could the Bromley North line be used for stabling overnight as a temporary solution? Grove Park itself cannot be expanded due to the short sighted selling off of railway land for housing development.

 

[ComUtoR]

What will the impact of new stock (potentially being fixed lengths) have ?
What is gonna happen when the Cricklewood expansion opens ?
Cannon Street sidings is never used.
There is a sidings at Sevenoaks that is unused that could be brought into use.
Sevenoaks Gusset sidings cant be used for SE stock.
Using all 4 sidings at Bellingham never works but 1rd could squeeze and extra 2.
Sidcup and Tunbridge Wells turnbacks could be utilized.
Station berthing is under utilized.

Slade Green... Hmmmmmm. Something is weird :/

 

[Aictos]

The only issue with outstabling is having the units in question being serviced over night and this includes being tanked and Train Presentation attending.

As a example if you stable a unit overnight at Luton Crescent Road as is often the case on a Saturday night, it doesn’t see TP staff until it comes back from a Luton to Sutton/Wimbledon service as there’s no access for TP staff that I’m aware of anyway.

If more outstabling is the answer, we need to look at providing TP with access so they can be cleaned as nothing is worse or anti passenger then outstabling a train full of rubbish then putting it straight into service the following morning peak.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What will the impact of new stock (potentially being fixed lengths) have ?
What is gonna happen when the Cricklewood expansion opens ?
Cannon Street sidings is never used.
There is a sidings at Sevenoaks that is unused that could be brought into use.
Sevenoaks Gusset sidings cant be used for SE stock.
Using all 4 sidings at Bellingham never works but 1rd could squeeze and extra 2.
Sidcup and Tunbridge Wells turnbacks could be utilized.
Station berthing is under utilized.

Slade Green... Hmmmmmm. Something is weird :/

Reference previous points, you definitely don’t want to use anything other than manned stabling points / 24hr manned stations (eg Sevenoaks, Dartford) for security and safety reasons. Sidcup Siding, Tunbridge Wells Turnback (etc) are not appropriate solutions.

 

[LLivery]

Remove Orpington's car park, get 4-6 tracks in, put new car park decking over it. Each road could probably be long enough for 16 cars.

 

[hkstudent]

Slade Green expansion is the obvious candidate, land is available to expand eastwards, and possibly using the triangle which must already be railway land.

An off the wall suggestion, but could the Bromley North line be used for stabling overnight as a temporary solution? Grove Park itself cannot be expanded due to the short sighted selling off of railway land for housing development.

Slade Green can't expand eastward as the land is within Metropolitan Green Belt. There were attempts in building a freight depot there but was rejected by the Mayor of London on environmental grounds.

Also, there may be operational issues when Crossrail extend eastwards.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The only issue with outstabling is having the units in question being serviced over night and this includes being tanked and Train Presentation attending.

As a example if you stable a unit overnight at Luton Crescent Road as is often the case on a Saturday night, it doesn’t see TP staff until it comes back from a Luton to Sutton/Wimbledon service as there’s no access for TP staff that I’m aware of anyway.

If more outstabling is the answer, we need to look at providing TP with access so they can be cleaned as nothing is worse or anti passenger then outstabling a train full of rubbish then putting it straight into service the following morning peak.

Remember a very funny one where some units had to sit at Hitchin Up Yard (6/313) a couple of nights a week for a month or so.

What made it into service can only be described as outrageous.

 

[Aictos]

Remember a very funny one where some units had to sit at Hitchin Up Yard (6/313) a couple of nights a week for a month or so.

What made it into service can only be described as outrageous.

Agreed, this is why overnight stabling at out locations need resourcing properly.

At the very minimum, it should involve being litter picked, bins emptied and toilets cleaned using a mobile team if need be which is why SE if outstabling is the answer need to bear this in mind.

 

[brad465]

Does that old quarry area at Northfleet have any potential? Ignoring the short branch to the Robin's creek Wharf area are two sidings there currently (not sure what they're used for if they are) and some other empty land that a couple more sidings could perhaps be built on. If it was possible to stable anything more there it could either be an effective overflow to Dartford, if points were built across from the wharf branch and third rail installed to the sidings, or putting a few 395s in if that is not logistically inconvenient for where they have to be the next day working?

 

[Horizon22]

Cannon Street sidings is never used.
Sidcup and Tunbridge Wells turnbacks could be utilized.
Station berthing is under utilized.
/

Cannon Street can't be used anymore, I think the infrastructure is OOU. Not sure its permitted to use Sidcup or Tunbridge Wells (and the former could be a serious grafitting site). Where else would you berth as most terminals are now.

Regarding Chart Leacon, and although SE has an overcrowding issue across the board, I'd say the metro is more pressing and Ashford isn't an ideal spot for metro stock so doesn't solve the problem.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Cannon Street can't be used anymore, I think the infrastructure is OOU. Not sure its permitted to use Sidcup or Tunbridge Wells (and the former could be a serious grafitting site). Where else would you berth as most terminals are now.

Regarding Chart Leacon, and although SE has an overcrowding issue across the board, I'd say the metro is more pressing and Ashford isn't an ideal spot for metro stock so doesn't solve the problem.

Moving some stuff to Chart would allow some stuff from, say, Tonbridge to move which would then allow a couple of things to move down to Tonbridge from Orpington or Grove Park. It’s not what seems black and white, it’s more what could be done as part of the bigger picture.

 

[carriageline]

Cannon Street can't be used anymore, I think the infrastructure is OOU. Not sure its permitted to use Sidcup or Tunbridge Wells (and the former could be a serious grafitting site). Where else would you berth as most terminals are now.

Regarding Chart Leacon, and although SE has an overcrowding issue across the board, I'd say the metro is more pressing and Ashford isn't an ideal spot for metro stock so doesn't solve the problem.

Cannon St isn’t out of use, it’s just a tad rusty from the lack of use. Use it more, and all will be fine!

 

[Horizon22]

Cannon St isn’t out of use, it’s just a tad rusty from the lack of use. Use it more, and all will be fine!

As far as I'm aware the Cannon St sidings and Met Reversible are not to be used as the rail condition is very poor (as you say rusty).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

As far as I'm aware the Cannon St sidings and Met Reversible are not to be used as the rail condition is very poor (as you say rusty).

That, and it is worth saying Cannon Street is of little use as the two sidings in question are no longer than 6 coaches a piece (if not a bit less).

 

[ComUtoR]

Didn't the Met reversible get relaid recently with the London Bridge works. They were running services from Charing Cross to Cannon Street. With the sidings at Cannon Street, we have to consider that every single inch of space is going to be needed. Even if it takes 2 shunts to make a morning 8-Car service.

There was something in Cannon Street sidings up till recently.

Where else would you berth as most terminals are now.

As above, every inch of space is needed. Since GTR nicked 2 sidings off SE at Orpington it now leaves 8 (2x4) coaches of space empty and the Platforms at Orpington all hold 12 so there is room to squeeze a couple extra units in.

IF SE ever get their new stock they will need to squeeze every drop out of the sidings and stations, make a few sacrifices, and get a little bit creative.

 

[Meerkat]

Are there any places where an otherwise too valuable site could have a stabling yard built with overhead development?
Going mental with the crayons is two level stabling viable with electric trains?
Desperate times an all that!

 

[carriageline]

Didn't the Met reversible get relaid recently with the London Bridge works. They were running services from Charing Cross to Cannon Street. With the sidings at Cannon Street, we have to consider that every single inch of space is going to be needed. Even if it takes 2 shunts to make a morning 8-Car service.

There was something in Cannon Street sidings up till recently.



As above, every inch of space is needed. Since GTR nicked 2 sidings off SE at Orpington it now leaves 8 (2x4) coaches of space empty and the Platforms at Orpington all hold 12 so there is room to squeeze a couple extra units in.

IF SE ever get their new stock they will need to squeeze every drop out of the sidings and stations, make a few sacrifices, and get a little bit creative.

Only a part of it got relaid, more towards the Met Junc end. There are no booked moves over it, very occasionally will something go round there, and that will be a tamper or 1 unit. As an aside, both sidings are 4 car (another posted said they are 6). There was a wagon left in there for a while.

I remember there was talk in the NR Improvement plan of putting in a 12 car siding on the Met Reverse (in addition to, or replacing I’m not sure!). Not sure what happened to that.

It’s not currently allowed, but surely stock at London Bridge High level could be used for berthing. A train in 2,7 and 8 could be berthed.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Only a part of it got relaid, more towards the Met Junc end. There are no booked moves over it, very occasionally will something go round there, and that will be a tamper or 1 unit. As an aside, both sidings are 4 car (another posted said they are 6). There was a wagon left in there for a while.

I remember there was talk in the NR Improvement plan of putting in a 12 car siding on the Met Reverse (in addition to, or replacing I’m not sure!). Not sure what happened to that.

It’s not currently allowed, but surely stock at London Bridge High level could be used for berthing. A train in 2,7 and 8 could be berthed.

The 12 car plan still exists but not for overnight stabling. It would only be for daytime stabling so a Kent Coast Train (12 car 375) could stable between peaks as it gets them an extra train that can’t come / go empty to Grove Park as there’s not then enough capacity through London Bridge at contra-peak.

As for stabling in London Bridge it’s a horrible idea. If a signal failure / train failure strikes at somewhere like Charing Cross, Cannon Street or Waterloo East or one of the two terminals is out of action, not only do you divert trains to the other but you also start/terminate at London Bridge and still have trains passing through each way around them. It’s the same reason stabling at New Cross during the day would be such a bad idea.