Election 2019 - promises

[Antman]

No, it's not lying. Most Labour members do genuinely believe that these kinds of pledges are viable, that the country is making a huge loss as a result of private companies in some industries taking extortionate profits and then avoiding paying tax on them, and that there are huge efficiency etc. gains to be made by not having private companies run those industries. You may well disagree with it (and I somewhat disagree with that, although I would still argue that a Labour Government is far, far, preferable to the shambles we have at the moment), but it's not lying.

I agree. The members do believe in it. We all want to. Everyone bar the sociopaths wants a better run and fairer society for all. But those who run the party don’t believe it. They rely on the story not being examined and peddle it as true. Everyone who takes a second to think knows it’s as believable as £350m a week or that Boris was in Wetherspoons all night with a teetotal male vicar. Drinking mocktails.

I also wholeheartedly disagree about efficiencies. There simply won’t be any. The opposite will happen. Waste and largesse. And a lack of investment. Because we all saw the 1970s.... nothing has changed bar that the flares are now skinny jeans and designer beards (I have no love for any of the politicians. They all know the game is to say anything to get elected/keep the gravy train rolling. Then they’ll have a mandate and window to do what they like. See post-2016 for example (I am no brexiteer either, but I find the MP’s disdain for their own constituents deplorable (across the parties)).

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Labour want to nationalise the railways and buses in the UK. I think this is a good idea because privatization causes trains and bus fares to go absolutely expensive (lol, I can't afford many of the train fares). But I am also a bit sceptical about it, because, will it really work? I believe for the buses something just like TfL (so regulation) would be the best solution, so bus companies operating under contract to the authority.

For the trains and railways, I also believe we need to try and restore as many railways as possible, because the smaller communities can then have great access to fast services to big cities, unlike nowadays where they need to rely on buses. And, to stop climate change, I think it would be a good idea to electrify every single railway line in the whole of the UK. 25kv AC 50hz OHLE everywhere except on some beautiful very scenic lines in Wales or North Scotland, where third rail electrification (like in the South East of England currently) would be better as the overhead wires and gantry poles can potentially spoil the scenary.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Also, I believe the following cities in the UK really need a metro system if possible:

ENGLAND

Birmingham
Manchester
Leeds
Sheffield
Liverpool
Bristol

As well as expand the current London and Newcastle metros, if possible.

WALES

Cardiff

SCOTLAND

Edinburgh

As well as expand the current Glasgow metro, if possible.

NORTHERN IRELAND

Belfast


Whoever is saying here in the UK we need more metro systems, I fully agree. But I think we should also continue expanding the light rail systems.

 

[thejuggler]

After Brexit we also need to look
at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts; the functioning of the Royal Prerogative; the role of the House
of Lords; and access to justice for ordinary people. The ability of our security services to defend us against terrorism and organised crime is critical. We will update the Human Rights Act and administrative law to ensure that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals, our vital national security and effective government. We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays. In our first year we will set
up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come
up with proposals to restore trust
in our institutions and in how our democracy operates.

First of all define 'after Brexit'.

Secondly this could remove lots of rights to millions, which is probably why its not mentioned until the last few pages.

 

[ExRes]

Labour want to nationalise the railways and buses in the UK. I think this is a good idea because privatization causes trains and bus fares to go absolutely expensive (lol, I can't afford many of the train fares). But I am also a bit sceptical about it, because, will it really work? I believe for the buses something just like TfL (so regulation) would be the best solution, so bus companies operating under contract to the authority.

For the trains and railways, I also believe we need to try and restore as many railways as possible, because the smaller communities can then have great access to fast services to big cities, unlike nowadays where they need to rely on buses. And, to stop climate change, I think it would be a good idea to electrify every single railway line in the whole of the UK. 25kv AC 50hz OHLE everywhere except on some beautiful very scenic lines in Wales or North Scotland, where third rail electrification (like in the South East of England currently) would be better as the overhead wires and gantry poles can potentially spoil the scenary.

Have you considered how your ideas would be paid for? It could either be funded by raising taxes for everyone in the country or by increasing fares, or perhaps I'm missing something?

 

[Antman]

Being positive, what I’d really like is light rail. Commuting by road is so slow now a 30 or 40mph (or 50 if it doesn’t cost much more) light rail would be a huge improvement. Taking load off roads to interchange stations. But it won’t happen. Both major parties’ spending promises are about promising giveaways now. And promises of spending later. There will be no long term investment in strategic projects. I don’t just mean down south. To give Manchester credit, the trams really work on the NW. the traffic is rubbish because of the politicians punishing the voters for not saying yes to a congestion charge !

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Have you considered how your ideas would be paid for? It could either be funded by raising taxes for everyone in the country or by increasing fares, or perhaps I'm missing something?

That's the difficult part, yeah.

 

[Djgr]

Well presumably it pays for itself by eliminating the wasteful bureaucracy required to coordinate and deal with the 100s of fragments in the rail industry since privatisation. The rail magazine media frequently talk about costs in real terms having doubled.

It also avoids money being funnelled out of the railway industry through various dubious practices that enable private individuals to purchase Caribbean islands and other such stuff.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well presumably it pays for itself by eliminating the wasteful bureaucracy required to coordinate and deal with the 100s of fragments in the rail industry since privatisation. The rail magazine media frequently talk about costs in real terms having doubled.

It also avoids money being funnelled out of the railway industry through various dubious practices that enable private individuals to purchase Caribbean islands and other such stuff.

Genuine question:
Can you give us the names of any private individuals who have purchased a Caribbean island with money “funnelled out of the railway industry”?
[It being noted that Richard Branson purchased an uninhabited rock in the British Virgin Islands before he entered the rail industry.]

 

[Djgr]

Genuine question:
Can you give us the names of any private individuals who have purchased a Caribbean island with money “funnelled out of the railway industry”?
[It being noted that Richard Branson purchased an uninhabited rock in the British Virgin Islands before he entered the rail industry.]

... and other such stuff. I note Brian Souter is a billionaire. How did that cash transfer from the UK population in general to that individual?

 

[ExRes]

Well presumably it pays for itself by eliminating the wasteful bureaucracy required to coordinate and deal with the 100s of fragments in the rail industry since privatisation. The rail magazine media frequently talk about costs in real terms having doubled.

Do you really think that a nationalised railway will eliminate wasteful bureaucracy? Nationalisation will continue to funnel money out of the industry to pay for the borrowing that it will need to function, the majority of those interest payments will go to the very private individuals and corporations that you so dislike

 

[Dr Hoo]

... and other such stuff. I note Brian Souter is a billionaire. How did that cash transfer from the UK population in general to that individual?

In no way do I seek to justify Brian Souter’s wealth but it is no secret from recently published ‘rich lists’ that even with Ann Gloag he is no longer a billionaire, that much of his wealth comes from business activities outside the UK and even within the UK from industries beyond rail.
There is no need to exaggerate.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It also avoids money being funnelled out of the railway industry through various dubious practices that enable private individuals to purchase Caribbean islands and other such stuff.

Genuine question:
Can you give us the names of any private individuals who have purchased a Caribbean island with money “funnelled out of the railway industry”?
[It being noted that Richard Branson purchased an uninhabited rock in the British Virgin Islands before he entered the rail industry.]

... and other such stuff. I note Brian Souter is a billionaire. How did that cash transfer from the UK population in general to that individual?

I think the correct and appropriate response in this situation would be something like 'I'm sorry I got my facts wrong and stated something about the rail industry that wan't true', rather than simply ignoring the point and going on to make some other implied accusation, as if that somehow justifies posting something that was plain factually wrong.

 

[Robertj21a]

... and other such stuff. I note Brian Souter is a billionaire. How did that cash transfer from the UK population in general to that individual?

Do you need to check your facts and do a good bit more research ?

 

[Goldfish62]

Labour want to nationalise the railways and buses in the UK. I think this is a good idea because privatization causes trains and bus fares to go absolutely expensive (lol, I can't afford many of the train fares). But I am also a bit sceptical about it, because, will it really work? I believe for the buses something just like TfL (so regulation) would be the best solution, so bus companies operating under contract to the authority.

For the trains and railways, I also believe we need to try and restore as many railways as possible, because the smaller communities can then have great access to fast services to big cities, unlike nowadays where they need to rely on buses. And, to stop climate change, I think it would be a good idea to electrify every single railway line in the whole of the UK. 25kv AC 50hz OHLE everywhere except on some beautiful very scenic lines in Wales or North Scotland, where third rail electrification (like in the South East of England currently) would be better as the overhead wires and gantry poles can potentially spoil the scenary.

They don't want to nationalise the buses. They are proposing extending the provisions of the Buses Act 2016 that gives the option of franchising to elected mayors (plus Cornwall) to all councils. It's only a small extension of what the Tories have legislated for.

 

[Antman]

... and other such stuff. I note Brian Souter is a billionaire. How did that cash transfer from the UK population in general to that individual?

Souter started from scratch. And ignoring his nutty religious views, he put everything on the line, his dad's redundancy money was the seed capital (so the narrative goes). Then then used his skills and experience to build a behemoth. He took a MASSIVE chance and worked bloody hard at it. As I say, I find some of his personal beliefs utterly reprehensible, but he didn't get born with the money.... he worked for it.

If you take away that sort of reward, more people wouldn't do it. They'd be happy to be what they are. And social and economic mobility and aspiration would be less. And that would be a bad thing.

 

[Grumpy Git]

For all the Daily Mail fans, there is one fact you won't find printed in its "hallowed" pages;

since 2010, the ConLib and Conservative governments have ADDED £800 billion to the national debt. That figure is more than all the Labour governments in history (£500 billion).

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They don't want to nationalise the buses. They are proposing extending the provisions of the Buses Act 2016 that gives the option of franchising to elected mayors (plus Cornwall) to all councils. It's only a small extension of what the Tories have legislated for.

What I meant is that they wanted to regulate the buses just like TfL in London. So basically have a TfL system outside of London.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Souter started from scratch. And ignoring his nutty religious views, he put everything on the line, his dad's redundancy money was the seed capital (so the narrative goes). Then then used his skills and experience to build a behemoth. He took a MASSIVE chance and worked bloody hard at it. As I say, I find some of his personal beliefs utterly reprehensible, but he didn't get born with the money.... he worked for it.

To be fair, there did seem to be some dodgy practices at the time of bus de-regulation. There were various reports of Stagecoach driving smaller bus operators out of business by using their profits across the country to cross-subsidise services in particular local areas, so that they could undercut local competitors - then considerably raising their fares after the local competitors had been driven out of business.

I've also anecdotally at various times heard from local councillors in one or two places that they have found Stagecoach very hard to deal with when trying to plan for decent local public transport because - broadly speaking and if I've understood those people correctly - where some other private operators tend to understand the need for an integrated bus network and are willing to work with local councils to achieve that, Stagecoach tends much more to just want to cherry pick the most profitable routes and leave everything else - which helps their profits but harms public transport overall.

So I wouldn't say that Brian Souter's legacy is all good. But you are correct that he did make his fortunes by working hard in business. And I'm very confident that it's incorrect to imply - as @Djgr seemed to be doing - any corruption in the railways.

 

[class26]

For all the Daily Mail fans, there is one fact you won't find printed in its "hallowed" pages;

since 2010, the ConLib and Conservative governments have ADDED £800 billion to the national debt. That figure is more than all the Labour governments in history (£500 billion).

..............but far less than a monster raving loony corbyn government would increase the dept to !

 

[Grumpy Git]

..............but far less than a monster raving loony corbyn government would increase the dept to !

Can you name me any social improvements paid for with your £800 billion, I can't?

 

[Antman]

For all the Daily Mail fans, there is one fact you won't find printed in its "hallowed" pages;

since 2010, the ConLib and Conservative governments have ADDED £800 billion to the national debt. That figure is more than all the Labour governments in history (£500 billion).

well yes. It was a structural deficit. Which had to be reduced. Any idea why we had a massive structural deficit ?

(I’ve seen a number of people post this on social media. None of them have admitted (and I suspect many don’t understand) why that extra debt is there. But that is Corbyn and momentum all over. Just hand out sound bites that don’t stack up or are not accurate. Don’t worry, acolytes will just repeat them. Repeat them enough and it will hopefully get believed).

 

[Grumpy Git]

Just hand out sound bites that don’t stack up or are not accurate. Don’t worry, acolytes will just repeat them. Repeat them enough and it will hopefully get believed).

"Get Brexit Done"

 

[Esker-pades]

..............but far less than a monster raving loony corbyn government would increase the [debt] to !

Could you provide some evidence for this statement?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

since 2010, the ConLib and Conservative governments have ADDED £800 billion to the national debt. That figure is more than all the Labour governments in history (£500 billion).

You don't remember Alistair Darling bailing out the banks then?
That left a legacy which had to be corrected by the coalition, even if it wasn't really completed.
"There is no money left"...

You also don't seem to recognise (eg) Crossrail, widespread electrification and HS2 startup as "benefits" of government spend.
Not to mention all those pesky new train orders.

 

[Antman]

"Get Brexit Done"

I don’t disagree. The conservatives are almost as bad. But at least their message is clear. Unlike the laughable Corbyn stance on that matter

 

[Grumpy Git]

The country could afford the proposals Labour are suggesting, but those that have the means to pay for it won't. Greed wins every time. How can we justify executives earning 200x the salary of a shop floor person, it was about 40x when I started work in the 1970's.

I've worked in sub-Sarahan Africa and have seen what happens when those at the top of the pile have everything (including 8' high barbed-wire topped fences around their mansions) and those at the bottom have 'nowt.

The press report today that Johnson has no budget set aside for his promise to provide upgrades to northern east-west railways either.

 

[Antman]

The country could afford the proposals Labour are suggesting, but those that have the means to pay for it won't. Greed wins every time. How can we justify executives earning 200x the salary of a shop floor person, it was about 40x when I started work in the 1970's.

I've worked in sub-Sarahan Africa and have seen what happens when those at the top of the pile have everything (including 8' high barbed-wire topped fences around their mansions) and those at the bottom have 'nowt.

The press report today that Johnson has no budget set aside for his promise to provide upgrades to northern east-west railways either.

because Middlesbrough is not Mogadishu. Even Redcar isn't. The big difference is actually partly the social welfare net and an expectation/belief that someone else will always pay. At what point do the doers decide to stop their doing, as there is a burgeoning do nothing stratum of society. Those who just take and consume. And demand someone else pay for it. I will agree most Executive management is poor. Or at least not good enough (they tend to work long hours, but avoid decisions.... so those that have the guts to do so get rewarded and are in huge demand). And it's a global market....

But how can it make sense to help society by taking to just hand out to others. People talk about poverty in the UK.... it's very limited in all honesty... and those at the bottom need help - but when you look more closely, there's not many of those, and an awful lot more who just take social welfare, contribute nothing and just add to our (society's) burden. How do we link a redistribution of wealth to making that significant minority actually get off their backsides ?

 

[Grumpy Git]

The Tories legacy after almost 10 years in power:

Child poverty ⬆️ 50%
Food-bank use ⬆️ 1000%
Homelessness ⬆️ 170%
NHS waiting lists ⬆️ 70%
Police numbers ⬇️ 20%
Crime ⬆️ 30%

But like the bloke stood up to his knees in his flooded house said on TV, (when asked what his hopes were after the election), "lets get Brexit done". Mind-numbing.

 

[Goldfish62]

What I meant is that they wanted to regulate the buses just like TfL in London. So basically have a TfL system outside of London.

In essence yes, but without forcing local authorities to do so.