Election 2019 - promises

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by mawallace, 20 Nov 2019.

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  1. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    Yes, Stagecoach has been terrible in the past and you're quite right in saying that they haven't always wanted to work with local authorities to improve integration. It was due solely to Stagecoach SWT intransigence that TfL had to introduce the ridiculous Oyster Extension Permit in order for SWT to agree to Oyster PAYG on their services. Fortunately it was scrapped very quickly as even SWT in the end had to admit it was a waste of time.

    I also think that Stagecoach are being quite childish with their outspoken opposition to GM franchising, but then Stagecoach Manchester does return a double digit profit margin... All its doing is winding up TfGM and the Mayor.
     
  2. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    Ah yes. Screwcoach bus bandits. Still St. Souter apparently has earned his loot.

    Here's the thing. Looking at the big picture there are only two ways to generate wealth.
    One-You create value Two-You enact a transfer from other people. Looking at the state of the UK rail industry today which of these offers the better high level explanation?
     
  3. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    All depends on your experiencies i guess, here I get four brand new double deckers an hour through Torbay, to the hospital and on to Newton Abbot along with a local service and connections to other services, why would I have any reason to complain about Stagecoach? they certainly create value in this area
     
  4. Justapunter

    Justapunter Member

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    and how much of that is legacy ? Child poverty is relative. And debunked fairly regularly

    Foodbanks. Same. Plus more of them so used more. And mainly by recent arrivals . who turns down free stuff ?

    homelessness. Mainly linked to immigration from E Europe and a failure of Mental health services (and there are places. They just won’t take people off their head. See spice for details)

    NhS waiting lists up. Well yes. See massive increase in NHS using population for details. and an ageing population. And a load of fatter older people.

    police numbers - that I’ll give you. I’d love an extra 25-30k officers. Not Diane Abbott costed though...

    which leads to crime up. Causes. Many. Increased population. Especially those from E Europe, Africa and Asia (look at prisoner demographics) Weaker community sentencing. The legacy of those who grew up as kids under the last regimes as well as this one.

    what I am fairly sure of is that it wouldn’t be better under any regime. (As I keep saying I have no love for the tories. I just don’t like the social media swamping of half truths and clear lies by labour.
     
  5. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

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    Blame them pesky foreigners for everything.

    That will sort it. I mean it's completely and totally wrong but at least your honest with your thoughts.

    Turn down free stuff? Do you understand how a food bank works? It's not just turning up and demanding a Sunday dinner. You have to be referred by a social or healthcare worker.

    More kids (not just them funny sounding ones) are going to school hungry.

    And as for the NHS, the increased population from Asia and the east are the only things keeping it going. Many of the NHS workers are migrants.

    But yeah, the pesky foreigners are to blame.
     
  6. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    Utter junk. Quite appalling really.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2019
  7. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Just wow. Ever been in one and seen just what type of people come through the door?
     
  8. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    That's hardly looking at the big picture though.
     
  9. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    With regard to food banks, I know two people who have used a food bank. One was an alcoholic, who refused all help, and who spent his dole money on whiskey and then left himself nothing with which to buy food for himself.

    The second deliberately got his gf pregnant at 18, despite neither being in work (by choice) and neither having the means to provide for the baby. I fail to see how either of those scenarios can end up with blame being laid at the door of 10 Downing St.

    This is why I won’t ever join the bandwagon on criticising the Tories over their growing use.

    PS, I’m happy to say the chap in example 2 now works, and has 2 children and is far more responsible than previously. Sadly, example 1 is no longer with us.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2019
  10. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    And you're happy to base your entire view of food banks on a statistical sample of two?
     
  11. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    It’s called real life experience. Not what activists and people with agendas would have you believe. I could go on with more examples of tales from a person who previously worked at what used to be known as the DSS, but that would be long and tedious.
     
  12. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    But surely you can see the distortion that results from small numbers and relying on a single viewpoint that is likely to hold bias?
     
  13. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Fascinated to hear what provides the evidence to back your seemingly contrary viewpoint. The floor is yours! I trust that you’ll be able to show that at no time was absence of any personal responsibility a contributory factor?
     
  14. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Maybe not, but without travelling round the country trying Stagecoach services here, there and everywhere what view am I likely to come to? quite often that's how people vote as well, if your MP has done things for the constituency you live in would you vote them out just because Johnson, Corbyn and Swinson are a bunch of losers making promises the country can't afford to keep? I wouldn't vote for the so called MP in my constituency under any circumstances at all, regardless of which party she represents until her next change of mind, the Lib Dems are prepared to stand a candidate that's been in four parties in a few months, is a total hypocrite and takes the opposing stance to the electorate that put her in Westminster, am I supposed to look at the big picture and vote for her?
     
  15. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    I would suggest to provide arguments that I would find persuasive I would require the following

    1-You had experience of working in food banks. You had spoken to the people you met there and assessed and considered the stories they told you.

    2-You had a significant i.e. at least 20 examples gleaned from personal experience and from 2nd hand (but no further removed than that) from people who had no particular agenda
     
  16. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    No but the world doesn't end five miles away from your house.
     
  17. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    The big problem is that as the national government has done nothing for funding social care even though it's been known that is a problem coming out means that local councils are making cuts.

    The budgets of local councils have been going up, but the costs that the national government have left then with on social care are ballooning, so they have to cut and cut deep.

    As such all that will happen is that local rail will go the way of local buses, in that if there's a need for subsidy then it will get cut.
     
  18. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Where did I say it did?
     
  19. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    And there lies a big %age of why people voted to leave Europe. Brexit has virtually destroyed my 25 year old business and it hasn't even happened yet.
     
  20. 387star

    387star On Moderation

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    Distasteful
     
  21. whittlesfordok

    whittlesfordok Member

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    My main problem with election promises regard rail is the following.
    You can promise as many improvements as you like but can you deliver them.
    On budget and without delay.
    The answer is no as if you try and spend too fast and not have the capacity it will end up being delayed and costing a lot more. Ie cross rail and HS2.
    Most politicians do not get this.
    ReNationalism will cause a massive slowdown in projects.
     
  22. MCSHF007

    MCSHF007 Member

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    Indeed. I have yet (in over 40 years voting in every single election/referendum since I was 18) to accept why those who understand and accept personal responsibility should be expected to subsidise the fickle who don't.

    Yes, I do know there are thousands of hard-working 'recent arrivals' that contribute massively (either through taxes or employment) to the NHS. You only have to look at areas like Paige Hall here in Sheffield though (doubtless replicated throughout the country) to appreciate that there are many more thousands who will only ever 'receive' the benefits of our wonderful National (please note not International) Health Service without them (or their ancestors) having made any contribution whatsoever.
     
  23. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    That sounds somewhat unlikely to me given the heavy restrictions on migrants receiving benefits.

    FWIW I do think that we should be careful to ensure as far as possible that benefits are paid only to those who genuinely are in need, and who are in principle prepared to work and contribute, but for reasons beyond their control are unable to. But it seems to be incredibly easy for many people and many right wing politicians to just make blanket assumptions that vast amounts of benefits are paid out undeservedly, without any solid evidence. And often even easier to imagine, again without evidence, that immigrants are particularly benefitting from this. Are you sure you're not falling into that trap?
     
  24. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    I think it was one of our college lecturers who said (just prior to the 1979 election, when I was a second year apprentice);

    " ............ if you vote a Conservative at 18, you have no heart but if you still vote Conservative when you are 48 you have no brains."

    He was an ex-miner and he did have his tongue firmly in his cheek (and great mentor he was too), but I would still disagree, or maybe I don't have any brains?

    It'd probably have more income if I voted Tory (v Labour), but in my opinion, the country is a better place when the system is fairer for those who have less and will never have the means to get out of the hole they are in. But as I said before, Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster for me. I think anyone who does not have any experience of running a small business, where you have to import (and export) to the EU cannot begin to understand the chaos this has and will continue to bring.

    They pay a high proportion of tax in Scandinavia apparently. Well I've worked there recently and prices are high, but no one complains and I have yet to see a boarded-up shop (or any other run down property) or pot-holed road. The place also has a general air of tidyness about it, very little discarded chewing gum and simple things like fallen leaves swept-up before they become a sodden mush glued to the pavement and gutter, so they must be doing something right in their "high tax" society?
     
  25. Justapunter

    Justapunter Member

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    Yes. Volunteered in one. Have you ?

    To be clear, immigration is good for the UK. We are basically a nation built on it. And it’s made us stronger. But at the same time we have rapidly grown the population by fairly uncontrolled immigration and not understanding demographics and not increased the infrastructure (Hospitals, state housing, transport etc). And at risk of you not thinking I am Godfrey Bloom, we want and need productive immigration. We need workers. To generate wealth and provide services. We can’t get enough of them. And we need a lot more.

    The idiot UKIP/Brexit lot can’t see that the doctors/nurses/council workers/bus drivers/low paid service workers they see are working hard to pro jobs they won’t do for the money/don’t want to get the skills and qualifications. And at the same take vote against them working and living here. The same ones who vote against these coming to better their lives in the UK.

    How is that controversial ?
     
  26. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    I would suggest that there's lot more local population who receive the benefits from our NHS and benefit payments without them (or even their parents or grandparents) paying any taxes.

    However that is the way of things, if you have a system which provides a safety net for those who need it because of no fault of their own and use it to get back on their feet then you're going to find those who abuse it.

    However those are a small enough number that the system copes with it. Yes there's changes which could be made to make it less attractive. The problem is that this often means that the system is either more expensive or disproportionately harms those who do truly need it.

    Having seen other humans being provided with a house, who have little more than the clothes that they have on and can carry, and seeing just how stark that house is. It is not something that I would ever want to see from my perspective as the person getting it. The reason I was there was to provide that family with some furniture so that their children didn't need to sleep on the hard floor (as council houses only ever come with hard floors) and that they had a fridge to be able to store their food.

    It is an experience which many would benefit from seeing, not least those who govern us and come up with policies which impact on those people who vote for them.

    There's a lot been said about the harm of allowing Eastern Europeans come in under Labour. However few recall the difficulty in getting building work done due to the significant labour shortage and trades being able to earn hundreds of pounds a day.

    Now obviously the increase in the labour market meant that those daily rates fell, harming their income. However they only really fell to about where they should have been and it meant that many more people were able to get the building and home improvements works done.

    Much is said about how people coming here take jobs from the British, however if that was true then we'd see million upon millions without work as the population increases.

    In fact what happens is that as the population grows so does the number of jobs so as to serve that population.

    For instance if you have a village of 5,000 and a town of 10,000 the latter has more shops and more businesses to serve that population and so the number of employees goes up.

    Those extra employees then mean that there's more money about and so more people can be employed which means that further jobs are created.

    Talk to most businesses and they would say that being able to access a larger market would mean that they can sell more. Now often there's limits to this, in that distance often becomes a barrier (for instance a fish and chip shop is going to be more geographically limited than a builder), however most businesses are generally welcoming of extra people as it means that they are more likely to do well.

    However there does come a point when a location becomes big enough that it will attract competition (a case study would be a village shop, if the village is too small it won't be able to survive, yet if the village is large enough you'll see a supermarket come in).

    The "problem" for the NHS and our benefits system isn't really with those who are coming here from other countries (which is mostly to work) but rather from our own aging population. In fact without people coming here to work in the NHS and care systems it would be in a much worse state and would have been so for a much longer time.

    What do we do to fix the problem of an aging population then? Well short of seeing an age limit (which wouldn't be popular for some reason, especially among those who are most likely to be fairly vocal on the matter of people coming here), we're left with importing the workforce that we need.

    Whilst it is true that there'll be a lot of those coming here who do benefit from our system without paying taxes it is also true that there's a good chance that family of theirs will have paid a great price for us to have what we have today. Whether that's the likes of the Polish fighter pilots who were in the RAF and helped us win the Battle of Britain, or those who have seen their countries asset striped by the British Empire, or those who were impacted by slavery, or even those who are little more than slaves so that we can afford to have disposable fashion and cheap stuff.

    What have most British people done to have the right to live here? Basically have the dumb luck to be born here.

    In the UK we have won life's lottery of being born in the right place in the world. Without that we'd most likely have lost more family members (especially children) due to poor healthcare or poor diet or generally much poorer living conditions. We wouldn't have had easy access to education (I was going to say as well educated, however there are often many who have been educated to very high levels yet who haven't been educated on what life is like for those who aren't like them). We wouldn't have had access to vaccines which protect us from needing further treatments (let alone protected us from death). Chances are we'd be more likely to end up in prison or otherwise disadvantaged because we didn't agree with those who are in power. Likewise we'd be more likely to be a victim of crime or live in fear of those involved in crime.

    My view is very much let's help everyone as you'll never know when you'll need their help. Even if that help is when I'm old and can no longer do all that I can currently do. Yes I know that I'm unlikely to directly receive back from those I help, however the better the world is for everyone the better it'll be for me too.

    It's why I think that those who have an income like myself (and it's not even in the top 5%, according to an online calculator in in the top 30% of households) can afford and probably should be paying more taxes.

    This would likely directly benefit myself, through the likes of better services (such as librarys, education, healthcare, social care and the like) however it would likely also benefit me indirectly through:
    - the economy being stronger as there would be more people in employment or at least in better paid jobs.
    - better public transport being better (so less traffic congestion and less need to run my own vehicles)
    - safer communities as there'd be less need for people to turn to crime but also more police to respond to crime so that those involved in it are more likely to be caught (which then in turn reduces the likelihood of people turning to it)
    - better environment through more sustainable measures being implemented
    - many other reasons which I probably wouldn't even consider even if I were to think about it

    However I'm a political outlier in that the Tories are too mean, UKIP/Brexit parties are too xenophobic and even more mean that the Tories, Labour is too focused on state control, the Greens are too focused on the perfect solution so fail to understand that it'll not work due to people (see HS2 as a case in point), the Lib Dems and the Monster Raving Lonnie Party are probably the closest to my thinking, however even they tend to sit a long way off from where I am.
     
  27. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Surely people are people, or are you suggesting that there's different classes of people and some are less deserving of a chance in life than others?

    I've seen people from one part of the country relocated to another (the one they were moved to was a much wealthier area) should they not get help due to coming from somewhere else and not having paid council tax to the area they were now in?

    Anyway you can't always tell from where someone comes from, not even when they start talking, unless you ask them outright.
     
  28. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    d how much of that is legacy ? Child poverty is relative. And debu

    homelessness. Mainly linked to They
    NhS waiting lists up. Well yes. See massive increase in NHS using popular

    police numbers - that I’ll give you. I’d love an extra 25-30k officers. Not Diane Abbott costed though...

    which leads to crime up. Causes. Many. Increased population. Especially those from E Europe, Africa and Asia (look at prisoner demographics) Weaker community sentencing. The legacy of those who grew up as kids under the last regimes as well as this one.

    what I am fairly sure of is that it wouldn’t be better under any regime. (As I keep saying I have no love for the tories. I just don’t like the social media swamping of half truths and clear lies by labour.[/QUOTE]
    Ye Gods, l'm not sure where you got your so-called "facts" from, but this reads like a BNP manifesto. While completely off topic, such rubbish must be challenged whenever and wherever it appears.
     
    Last edited: 27 Nov 2019
  29. furnessvale

    furnessvale Established Member

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    Getting rid of a structural deficit is like turning round a supertanker at speed. All the time you are turning you are still moving in the wrong direction, the equivalent of overall debt still increasing. Eventually you have turned but you are miles further in the wrong direction than when you started, ie overall debt has increased. Only now you are facing the right way, ie with NO structural deficit, can you hope to start attacking overall debt.
     
  30. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I have no wish to denigrate the views of people who have more experience of the railway world than I ever will. However, I have seen "career railwaymen" in high positions and they are sometimes not up to it. They are fantastic operations/maintenance/engineering directors/ managers. They are not business managers. They can make decisions on the basis of it always having been that way and can reject new ideas because they are not of our world. That holds business back.

    The fact someone has 30 years service is not, alone, grounds for promotion to a senior position and sometimes you need new blood, ideas or new people to stir things up and move a business on.

    Indeed.
     
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