Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Energy]

Has anybody yet come across all these people who are supposed to have taken part in the research to decide that passengers would rather have at seat service from a trolley ?

I prefer seat service but they need a good way of ordering, I think using the portal already used for media is the best way. It also needs to not be overcrowded so staff can get through.

 

[Will Mitchell]

All inter-city services should have a full coach devoted to catering services with a galley serving freshly cooked meals to order and a bar serving draught beer and proper barista coffee. If it means fewer people can travel then so be it. Anything less is sub-standard and not fit for purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd prefer a trolley IF it is reliable and passes at least once every half hour or so (which probably means a trolley per 2-3 coaches or so).

This is rarely the case so I'd go buffet.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Getting back to the subject of this thread - how is the petition going? Are GWR/DFT going to bring back the buffet? I suspect we all know the answer to both questions.

The petition is being (and will be) ignored. The local Conservative MP’s need to start making the Secretary of State uncomfortable, probably by tabling questions in the House. The MP’s will be wasting their time if they contact the TOC because the DfT will effectively ignore them and try to kick it into the long grass again.

If the question is “When will the Secretary of State authorise the inclusion of buffet cars into the inter city units procured under the IEP scheme?” and he gets repeated questions of this nature, then something may actually happen. If he also gets a few key employers kicking up about the “poor layout” of these trains, that will also concentrate minds.

If the complaints cover both the LNER and GWR trains, all the better.

 

[ashkeba]

Are you seriously using the words 'Travelling Chef' and 'viable' in the same sentence?

The reason that Travelling Chef was axed by FGW was because it was deeply, seriously unviable financially, with red ink flowing like warm tomato ketchup.

The words were "potentially viable". Travelling Chef can be great if it is kept simple and is available consistently, as is shown by DB and ÖBB among others: short but varied menu of simple items, ordered online or at the counter and then delivered to your seat.

The reason FGW did not make it work is mainly that it seemed available at random, often not advertised at-seat (maybe because they did not know whether the chef was available until after the train had been presented¿), involved a walk to the buffet to order and a long wait (so kiss any unreserved seat goodbye!) and even regular travellers could not be sure of the menu from one week to the next once the axe-man accountants sinking their teeth into it. Uncertainty is toxic to on-train catering and I have rarely experienced such an uncertain catering offer. No wonder people bought before boarding if they could.

 

[ashkeba]

I'd prefer a trolley IF it is reliable and passes at least once every half hour or so (which probably means a trolley per 2-3 coaches or so).

This is rarely the case so I'd go buffet.

Making a railway worker hump a trolley of unsold goods along the train seems so cruel. A buffet is better, because time in the queue is time I am travelling, but at-seat ordering with ex-trolley staff delivering and picking order papers (for those not online) seems best and maybe could use the existing underused kitchens. It would mean more staff walking through 1st but that is both a bad and good thing - maybe more annoying but also gives more chance to stop them and make requests.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Making a railway worker hump a trolley of unsold goods along the train seems so cruel.

Wha? Seriously?

Is making them operate the doors, check tickets and drive the train also cruel? Crikey, imagine them having to evacuate the train in an emergency.

It's not a difficult job. If you don't want to do it, don't apply for it.

A buffet is better, because time in the queue is time I am travelling, but at-seat ordering with ex-trolley staff delivering and picking order papers (for those not online) seems best and maybe could use the existing underused kitchens. It would mean more staff walking through 1st but that is both a bad and good thing - maybe more annoying but also gives more chance to stop them and make requests.

The trouble is that that would mean an even slower hot drinks service as they can't carry lots of those at once. Even if you did other stuff by order, it still makes sense to use a trolley for hot drinks, which are the mainstay of any such service as you can't carry them on en-masse other than with a flask (which never tastes that good).

 

[Energy]

Wha? Seriously?
The trouble is that that would mean an even slower hot drinks service as they can't carry lots of those at once. Even if you did other stuff by order, it still makes sense to use a trolley for hot drinks, which are the mainstay of any such service as you can't carry them on en-masse other than with a flask (which never tastes that good).

Agreed, an online thing is good for hot food but a trolley is still good for hot drinks, another choice is just taking multiple drinks at a time.

 

[ashkeba]

Wha? Seriously?

Is making them operate the doors, check tickets and drive the train also cruel? Crikey, imagine them having to evacuate the train in an emergency.

None of those involve pushing heavy weights for hours.

The trouble is that that would mean an even slower hot drinks service as they can't carry lots of those at once. Even if you did other stuff by order, it still makes sense to use a trolley for hot drinks, which are the mainstay of any such service as you can't carry them on en-masse other than with a flask (which never tastes that good).

Warm-hot water from a trolley tank poured on plastic pots of dust do not taste that good either. Buffets with proper coffee makers or coffee carried from a kitchen in an insulated carrier beats that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of those involve pushing heavy weights for hours.

Best not get one of the many jobs that do, then. Perhaps avoid working on a building site or loading lorries at a warehouse.

It's utter nonsense to say it's cruelty. It's a physical job. If you don't want to do a physical job don't apply for one, but plenty of people like them.

Warm-hot water from a trolley tank poured on plastic pots of dust do not taste that good either. Buffets with proper coffee makers or coffee carried from a kitchen in an insulated carrier beats that.

Filter coffee (which you'd make in the galley and put on the trolley in a pump flask alongside water for the tea) is probably the best way to do coffee from a trolley. Never quite understood why the UK doesn't do that.

 

[HowardGWR]

Perhaps some method whereby impatient thirsty/starving pax can locate the trolley from where they are sitting could be useful. Anybody clever enough to make a suggest how this could be achieved? I managed to locate the trolley on an XC when she announced she would be stuck at the end of the train in coach ?, due to overcrowding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, the trolley steward could announce their position and intentions?

 

[HowardGWR]

Well, the trolley steward could announce their position and intentions?

In general, can they grab a p.a. mike in every coach then?

 

[Energy]

In general, can they grab a p.a. mike in every coach then?

Their is an intercom panel for crew which will announce it to the whole train.

 

[ashkeba]

Filter coffee (which you'd make in the galley and put on the trolley in a pump flask alongside water for the tea) is probably the best way to do coffee from a trolley. Never quite understood why the UK doesn't do that.

At least at one point, GWR did. Not a famous brand. The drink tasted of the individual filter pot plastic as much as of coffee. Flask water is too cool to make good coffee more than about 30 minutes after boiling.

I don't know what they do on GWR now. I've not seen a trolley in all my travels on them this year!

 

[Busaholic]

The petition is being (and will be) ignored. The local Conservative MP’s need to start making the Secretary of State uncomfortable, probably by tabling questions in the House. The MP’s will be wasting their time if they contact the TOC because the DfT will effectively ignore them and try to kick it into the long grass again.

If the question is “When will the Secretary of State authorise the inclusion of buffet cars into the inter city units procured under the IEP scheme?” and he gets repeated questions of this nature, then something may actually happen. If he also gets a few key employers kicking up about the “poor layout” of these trains, that will also concentrate minds.

If the complaints cover both the LNER and GWR trains, all the better.

In the course of the General Election in the formerly marginal seat of St Ives, the Tory candidate, now MP again, produced a leaflet full of the usual ill-written drivel including the 'boast'(!) that his party had introduced brand spanking new trains, seemingly expecting the statement both to stand up to scrutiny and garner him some votes from the credulous. I was rather hoping it had the opposite effect, such that he lost by one vote, but my hopes were dashed.

Perhaps a better tactic would be a petition to bring back HSTs on Penzance to London services on the grounds that they were far superior, despite their age, and as we know the door problem is soluble.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least at one point, GWR did. Not a famous brand. The drink tasted of the individual filter pot plastic as much as of coffee. Flask water is too cool to make good coffee more than about 30 minutes after boiling.

I don't mind those individual filter cups, but they weren't what I was thinking of - I was thinking of having a machine in the galley to brew a load of proper filter coffee then shove it in a flask and go sell it. That's how it's sold in Starbucks, Costa and Pret and it's perfectly acceptable there.

 

[fgwrich]

The words were "potentially viable". Travelling Chef can be great if it is kept simple and is available consistently, as is shown by DB and ÖBB among others: short but varied menu of simple items, ordered online or at the counter and then delivered to your seat.

The reason FGW did not make it work is mainly that it seemed available at random, often not advertised at-seat (maybe because they did not know whether the chef was available until after the train had been presented¿), involved a walk to the buffet to order and a long wait (so kiss any unreserved seat goodbye!) and even regular travellers could not be sure of the menu from one week to the next once the axe-man accountants sinking their teeth into it. Uncertainty is toxic to on-train catering and I have rarely experienced such an uncertain catering offer. No wonder people bought before boarding if they could.

Exactly. What also didn't help the Travelling Chef what the introduction of the High Density sets with the mini buffets, meaning that on certain services where the bigger buffet would have provided the chef, it simply wasn't available (before certain people point this out that it affects the Pullman, I know as I've had it happen). I would also like to know how some consider the Pullman Dining more viable than a potential re-incarnation of the Travelling Chef. I hate to say it, but on recent commutes in and out of Paddington, both the lunchtime and evening Pullman's have both appeared to be be down on customers. At least the IETs having a kitchen in each unit would allow some degree of better catering - one step above the buffet, one below Pullman. Oh, Travelling Chef again!

Anyway, as explained by Clarence Yard, none of this is likely to happen without an increase in staff. Lets see what DA3, or another franchise, brings.

 

[northernbelle]

Exactly. What also didn't help the Travelling Chef what the introduction of the High Density sets with the mini buffets, meaning that on certain services where the bigger buffet would have provided the chef, it simply wasn't available (before certain people point this out that it affects the Pullman, I know as I've had it happen). I would also like to know how some consider the Pullman Dining more viable than a potential re-incarnation of the Travelling Chef. I hate to say it, but on recent commutes in and out of Paddington, both the lunchtime and evening Pullman's have both appeared to be be down on customers. At least the IETs having a kitchen in each unit would allow some degree of better catering - one step above the buffet, one below Pullman. Oh, Travelling Chef again!

Anyway, as explained by Clarence Yard, none of this is likely to happen without an increase in staff. Lets see what DA3, or another franchise, brings.

The numbers, quite simply, do not add up - especially if you're expecting a standard level of service on every train.

If you analyse the number of heads you'd need to provide a chef on every train (2 heads in the case of a 2 x 5 car), multiply that up to cover holidays and sickness and then work out annual wages, nobody will sell enough omelettes or bacon rolls to come near to covering it.

Given it'll be the same DfT overseeing the next and future franchises, chefs and buffets are likely to be far down the agenda. Although a favourite topic on here, it really is a minority who partake on on board catering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely think designing food to be microwaved like DBs offering makes more sense. Quality ready meals are pretty good these days.

 

[Carlisle]

I'd prefer a trolley IF it is reliable and passes at least once every half hour or so (which probably means a trolley per 2-3 coaches or so).

I can’t see that ever being viable, considering Scotrail have recently axed a number of trolley staff presumably on cost grounds

 

[HowardGWR]

Their is an intercom panel for crew which will announce it to the whole train.

Thanks, I thought so. Well, there's the answer then. If people can't wait for the trolley, they could walk to where it is at that point, if the attendant announces that info. The only issue then is what assortment of food and drink should be provided on an inter-city train trolley.

I haven't a clue as we always take home-prepared sandwiches, sometimes supplemented with simple hot roll-type food from the station buffet or stall, depending on the time of day. We only buy hot drinks from the trolley, normally, although the small bottles of wine are useful at times. I don't suppose you can get anything better on the very few air services or bus services which compete with GWR services, as the flight times must be very short, and the buses don't have room for such facilities? For car travellers, they have to take out half an hour at a services or such-like.

 

[route101]

I can’t see that ever being viable, considering Scotrail have recently axed a number of trolley staff presumably on cost grounds

Was the catering dropped between Carlisle - Dumfries and Glasgow

 

[Ashley Hill]

I don't mind those individual filter cups, but they weren't what I was thinking of - I was thinking of having a machine in the galley to brew a load of proper filter coffee then shove it in a flask and go sell it. That's how it's sold in Starbucks, Costa and Pret and it's perfectly acceptable there.

Proper filter coffee is made in the galley for 1st class and given away as complimentary. STD has coffee grounds in said plastic cup which is filled from the (lukewarm) flask which then has a lid with a filter added. To be fair it's not really a flask,more of a canister which is filled and heated in coach D (B on 5s).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Proper filter coffee is made in the galley for 1st class and given away as complimentary.

Why not, then, make more of it and flog it in Standard? I had it in 1st and I noted that it was quite nice.

I don't mind those filter cups, that said. Though they do use rather a lot of non-recyclable plastic.

The place with the bays for reheating those flasks, by the way, is the place where I'd propose removing the bike space and installing a trolley dock type counter. The bikes could go elsewhere e.g. in a rack added to one of the saloons in the blank "window" space.

 

[northernbelle]

Proper filter coffee is made in the galley for 1st class and given away as complimentary. STD has coffee grounds in said plastic cup which is filled from the (lukewarm) flask which then has a lid with a filter added. To be fair it's not really a flask,more of a canister which is filled and heated in coach D (B on 5s).

Can't say I've ever had a lukewarm coffee from a GWR trolley - the water out of those IET urns is usually pretty hot.

 

[ashkeba]

The numbers, quite simply, do not add up - especially if you're expecting a standard level of service on every train.

If you analyse the number of heads you'd need to provide a chef on every train (2 heads in the case of a 2 x 5 car), multiply that up to cover holidays and sickness and then work out annual wages, nobody will sell enough omelettes or bacon rolls to come near to covering it.

Given it'll be the same DfT overseeing the next and future franchises, chefs and buffets are likely to be far down the agenda. Although a favourite topic on here, it really is a minority who partake on on board catering.

1. Not a standard service every train but a service on every train it's advertised as being on. Travelling Chef failed in that.
2. Get over the omlettes and bacon rolls. Go for the simple, hearty and profitable lines. Travelling Chef failed in that.
3. Minority, but a bigger minority outside the UK. Learn from them. Travelling Chef failed in that.
4. On that note, where else but UK uses awful airline style trollies? Most I can think of use cafe-bistro cars or a few like NL, RS, MD use people with easy-carry trays and bags.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4. On that note, where else but UK uses awful airline style trollies? Most I can think of use cafe-bistro cars or a few like NL, RS, MD use people with easy-carry trays and bags.

I've seen trolleys elsewhere though I couldn't say for sure where. The Dutch backpacks are because of the stairs in double-deckers.

I don't think the concept is flawed, just the "cheap rubbish" way the UK tends to do it, e.g. unrefrigerated cold drinks and lukewarm hot drinks.

 

[SwindonBert]

This is going no where in the forseeable future, until the trains are refurbished. The trolley was a nice idea, food & drinks delivered to your seat, without thinking through the practicality of busy trains, people standing blocking the route, and the reduced offer as someone has to push it & the limited size of what will fit when one can push it through the train.

 

[jimm]

The words were "potentially viable". Travelling Chef can be great if it is kept simple and is available consistently, as is shown by DB and ÖBB among others: short but varied menu of simple items, ordered online or at the counter and then delivered to your seat.

The reason FGW did not make it work is mainly that it seemed available at random, often not advertised at-seat (maybe because they did not know whether the chef was available until after the train had been presented¿), involved a walk to the buffet to order and a long wait (so kiss any unreserved seat goodbye!) and even regular travellers could not be sure of the menu from one week to the next once the axe-man accountants sinking their teeth into it. Uncertainty is toxic to on-train catering and I have rarely experienced such an uncertain catering offer. No wonder people bought before boarding if they could.

As I pointed out, Travelling Chef wasn't viable in reality, never mind potentially, which is why GWR dropped it.

Simple? Travelling Chef was hardly complicated fare to produce.

And your Germanic consistency comes with a very large price tag attached - three years ago, DB clocked up losses of the best part of 80 million Euros providing onboard catering. They have made a policy decision to take that financial hit. Others are not so willing.

Exactly. What also didn't help the Travelling Chef what the introduction of the High Density sets with the mini buffets, meaning that on certain services where the bigger buffet would have provided the chef, it simply wasn't available (before certain people point this out that it affects the Pullman, I know as I've had it happen). I would also like to know how some consider the Pullman Dining more viable than a potential re-incarnation of the Travelling Chef. I hate to say it, but on recent commutes in and out of Paddington, both the lunchtime and evening Pullman's have both appeared to be be down on customers. At least the IETs having a kitchen in each unit would allow some degree of better catering - one step above the buffet, one below Pullman. Oh, Travelling Chef again!

Anyway, as explained by Clarence Yard, none of this is likely to happen without an increase in staff. Lets see what DA3, or another franchise, brings.

From what you say above, anyone not familiar with what actually happened on FGW might think that Travelling Chef was available across the board at some point and was cruelly cut back when the mini-buffets appeared. And not that different from what BR InterCity had done on Western Region services for a long time before that.

As I'm sure you know full well, it was a limited service, largely focused on key London-bound morning 'business' trains where FGW thought it had a decent shot at covering its costs (and the mid-morning trains that got the crews home from Paddington in the reverse direction). It still lost a packet, so it won't be coming back.

And how often exactly did you use it? In my case it was an occasional treat if I was going into London of a Saturday morning two or three times a year and I suspect most other passengers were occasional customers - which does not make for consistent, high-volume take-up, making for smaller losses.

1. Not a standard service every train but a service on every train it's advertised as being on. Travelling Chef failed in that.
2. Get over the omlettes and bacon rolls. Go for the simple, hearty and profitable lines. Travelling Chef failed in that.
3. Minority, but a bigger minority outside the UK. Learn from them. Travelling Chef failed in that.
4. On that note, where else but UK uses awful airline style trollies? Most I can think of use cafe-bistro cars or a few like NL, RS, MD use people with easy-carry trays and bags.

So what, pray tell, are "simple hearty and profitable lines", exactly? Maybe you could inform the rest of us, and the catering departments at the train operators, as you seem to know better than them.

One of the places that uses awful trolleys is Austria, presumably because they had identified that some of their passengers would quite like an at-seat service of some sort, rather than trotting off along the train to a bistro car.