What Now For East Coast?

[Lampshade]

Umm... have you seen the prices Virgin charge for their Anytime fares? And what about their Peak timings; ever encroaching into traditional Off-Peak times.

That should change as soon as we get open access on the WCML, there's no incentive for low prices when they've got a monopoly.

 

[tbtc]

That should change as soon as we get open access on the WCML, there's no incentive for low prices when they've got a monopoly.

Where is there for open access to go on the WCML?

You could argue that Sunderland, Pontefract, Brighouse, Hull and Bradford weren't served by London trains (in the case of Sunderland, Pontefract and Bradford) or only had one or two services a day.

Whereas on the WCML you have, erm, Walsall? Bolton? Blackpool? Barrow? Not the same scope...

 

[Aictos]

Not for me thanks, morale has plummeted up here since First took over, especially over the last 2/3 years. How are things at their other franchises? It could perhaps be down to specific man management here, as i never hear TPE staff complaining, indeed we have lost quite some staff to them, even with their lower salary, though the shifts seem great. I'm not fussed on who gets the east coast franchise, as long as it is run to the benifit of the fare paying public at the end of the day.

It depends on who you ask, some of my colleagues are likely to welcome First losing the franchise and it being taken back in house along the lines of East Coast while others including myself believe it's not that bad and it actually down to specific management as is the case with Scot Rail.

A lot of former colleagues I know have jumped or defected whatever you wish to use to LOROL and East Coast like Scot Rail colleagues have jumped or defected to FTPE.

Now I'm lucky enough to actually have a manager who's as proactive as I am and is the complete opposite of her predecessor, stuff that needs to be done is actually now being done rather then just left to one side and forgotten about.

Okay it might take time for some things but generally I'm happy with my manager.

At the end of the day, FCC pay me a good wage with decent benefits and I enjoy my job, so I'm quite contend with First running the franchise.

 

[Lampshade]

Where is there for open access to go on the WCML?

You could argue that Sunderland, Pontefract, Brighouse, Hull and Bradford weren't served by London trains (in the case of Sunderland, Pontefract and Bradford) or only had one or two services a day.

Whereas on the WCML you have, erm, Walsall? Bolton? Blackpool? Barrow? Not the same scope...

I think Ian Yeowart registered the GNWR name for services from Carlisle to Euston via the Cumbrian coast and Barrow. Also there's plenty of market for places north of Warrington to Stafford/Tamworth/Lichfield, which aren't currently served by the Glasgow services.

 

[CarterUSM]

It depends on who you ask, some of my colleagues are likely to welcome First losing the franchise and it being taken back in house along the lines of East Coast while others including myself believe it's not that bad and it actually down to specific management as is the case with Scot Rail.

A lot of former colleagues I know have jumped or defected whatever you wish to use to LOROL and East Coast like Scot Rail colleagues have jumped or defected to FTPE.

Now I'm lucky enough to actually have a manager who's as proactive as I am and is the complete opposite of her predecessor, stuff that needs to be done is actually now being done rather then just left to one side and forgotten about.

Okay it might take time for some things but generally I'm happy with my manager.

At the end of the day, FCC pay me a good wage with decent benefits and I enjoy my job, so I'm quite contend with First running the franchise.

Thats fair doo's, my managers are generally okay, it's further up the chain that worries me, not to mention the totally 'comply with the service quality regime at all costs' scenario that results in heavy fines for the company, if not adhered to. It is agood thing in general, but when trains are failing the checks for posters being hung a few degrees askew from a square, then i think we need to start chilling a little.

 

[BOSCH]

I also wouldn't rule out an Open Access Operator applying like Grand Central...

WTF !!!

 

[87015]

But I would presume they would be banned because the DFT has already banned them from re-bidding for Natex East Anglia...

No they haven't...

 

[cuccir]

Govia would go down well in the north-east at least, their local bus services are excellent.

As for the WCML open access, I think the Cumbria service north of Barrow seems flawed, - surely changing at Carlisle is much easier for London, unless it can be sold as a local 'express' service between Carlisle/Whitehaven/Workington? If stations can be marketed as 'Workington for Kewsick' (for example), it might just about work.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just so long as it doesn't go to Virgin group there should be no real trouble in who it goes to. It'll either be First, Stagecoach and Virgin who it'll be between.

 

[Crossforth]

I think (out of the three) it would be Virgin as the other two, (am I correct in saying) would have to give up a franchise to take the East Coast on

 

[90019]

I think (out of the three) it would be Virgin as the other two, am I correct in saying) would have to give up a franchise to take the East Coast on

Why would Stagecoach?

 

[Crossforth]

I'm only going on something I read when the EC was last up for tender that certain companies had too many franchises and that stagecoach were only allowed 2.

Don't ask me why as I don't know.

 

[Failed Unit]

They won't let Virgin be the sole express operator with a monopoly of London to Scotland. As for DBs takeover of Arriva, it's yet to be approved yet so that's by no means confirmed. Just because the Tories don't like it, it doesn't mean they'll turn their attention to it. All their election talk of the defecit, spending cuts, nhs and military stuff will keep them far busier.

This is a myth. There is no reason east and west coast can't be operated by the same operator. You can do most of the route with other operators. In fact you can get from London to Edinburgh on without steeping on board or giving a penny to east coast by using grand central and cross country if you wanted. Also the London to Manchester Market is much bigger and it is ok for one operator to have a monopoly here. If virgin were barred why have they spent a lot of money bidding for it 3 times. Some of these while the still had xc

 

[tbtc]

Why would Stagecoach?

I don't think there are hard and fast rules; there have been plenty of examples of neighbouring franchises being run by the one company, like Wales & West & Valley Lines both being Prism, West Coast and Cross Country both being Virgin, or like Central Trains and Midland Main Line being run by National Express.

I guess the Stagecoach argument is that they'll then run the three main lines north of London (East Coast, Midland and West Coast), but realistically there are only minor overlaps between them - EMT carry only a handful of passengers to Leeds, and even the combined ECML/ WCML franchises only have a small share of the total Scotland to London market

 

[Lampshade]

Would First be willing to give up Hull Trains for the ICEC franchise?

Also, they have FCC and ScotRail already operating on the ECML to an extent.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think there are hard and fast rules; there have been plenty of examples of neighbouring franchises being run by the one company, like Wales & West & Valley Lines both being Prism, West Coast and Cross Country both being Virgin, or like Central Trains and Midland Main Line being run by National Express.

I guess the Stagecoach argument is that they'll then run the three main lines north of London (East Coast, Midland and West Coast), but realistically there are only minor overlaps between them - EMT carry only a handful of passengers to Leeds, and even the combined ECML/ WCML franchises only have a small share of the total Scotland to London market

When you mention the east midlands, monopolys and stagecoach. In Lincolnshire most buses are operated by stagecoach. People don't seem concerned about that. Same story with first and scotland. In many areas if you want public transport you must use first. One operator having the entire London to Scotland daytime rail flow is small fry really. Air and buses still have 80% share of this Market.

 

[tbtc]

Would First be willing to give up Hull Trains for the ICEC franchise?

Why would they have to?

London to Hull was a monopoly at privatisation (e.g. before HT)...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When you mention the east midlands, monopolys and stagecoach. In Lincolnshire most buses are operated by stagecoach. People don't seem concerned about that. Same story with first and scotland. In many areas if you want public transport you must use first. One operator having the entire London to Scotland daytime rail flow is small fry really. Air and buses still have 80% share of this Market.

Precisely.

Last stat I saw claimed First ran over 50 of bus journeys in Scotland (55%?), as well as the vast majority of train trips between Scottish stations.

Same could be said of the south west of England (Devon/ Cornwall).

Same could be said of Arriva in northern Wales.

We all want integrated transport, but then complain about lack of competition. Can't win!

 

[GNER 373]

I'd be happy to have anyone on the ECML that can update the lines and take forward the plans of the Hitachi Super Express! I love the HST's and the 91's but can't help envying the Pendalino's over on the WCML! Need some new Blood! And bring back GNER branding!

Also a European link via the 'Nollies' Eurostars(totally biased!!!) would be Fantastic (massively unrealistic) Edinburgh to Paris/Koln etc.

Well I can dream can't I!

 

[Geezertronic]

I'd be happy to have anyone on the ECML that can update the lines and take forward the plans of the Hitachi Super Express! I love the HST's and the 91's but can't help envying the Pendalino's over on the WCML! Need some new Blood! And bring back GNER branding!

If Virgin did swap West for East, it would be unlikely the Pendolinos would follow them - they would stay with whoever replaces Virgin on the West Coast

 

[Crossforth]

I think he more means get the ECML there own form of Pendo

 

[GNER 373]

I think he more means get the ECML there own form of Pendo

That's right...sorry I was enjoying my little dream world I wasn't too clear with what I meant! Pendo's were basically built to run on the WCML so I'd like to see what a ECML new train would throw up.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd be happy to have anyone on the ECML that can update the lines and take forward the plans of the Hitachi Super Express! I love the HST's and the 91's but can't help envying the Pendalino's over on the WCML! Need some new Blood! And bring back GNER branding!

Also a European link via the 'Nollies' Eurostars(totally biased!!!) would be Fantastic (massively unrealistic) Edinburgh to Paris/Koln etc.

Well I can dream can't I!

I like what we have on the east coast. I know the won't last forever but in terms of journey experience the mk4 beats the pendo hands down. In fact on an edinburgh - Leeds journey I would rather change at York to avoid the voyager. To me the latest generation of ic trains is a set backwards. Hopefully the iep won't be. But there is no point of removing the mk4 for the sake of it. They are still good for another 15 years.

 

[GNER 373]

I like what we have on the east coast. I know the won't last forever but in terms of journey experience the mk4 beats the pendo hands down. In fact on an edinburgh - Leeds journey I would rather change at York to avoid the voyager. To me the latest generation of ic trains is a set backwards. Hopefully the iep won't be. But there is no point of removing the mk4 for the sake of it. They are still good for another 15 years.

IEP was pencilled in for around 2013 so I can't see anything before then!

I know what your saying about the Mark 4's especially with the Mallard upgrades not happening too long ago (thanks once again to GNER!)

I would be happy for the 91's and Mark 4's to continue and what a horrible day it will be when we don't see HST's in major mainline service!

I'm simply looking into the future and wondering what's next!

And hopefully it can match our affiliations for the current rolling stock!

 

[ainsworth74]

IEP was pencilled in for around 2013 so I can't see anything before then!

It will be a bleeding miracle if we see them at all let alone 2013, it looking like IEP could well end up being cancelled. Last I heard it was under going a value for money review, something which it could struggle to survive.

Must admit I am a fan of the IC225s and see no need to replace them for at least another 10 years maybe more, the fleet is on average only around 20 years old.

 

[GNER 373]

It will be a bleeding miracle if we see them at all let alone 2013, it looking like IEP could well end up being cancelled. Last I heard it was under going a value for money review, something which it could struggle to survive.

Must admit I am a fan of the IC225s and see no need to replace them for at least another 10 years maybe more, the fleet is on average only around 20 years old.

I think it actually hinged on the recent Elections and who came (or retained) power...and I'm still a bit confused to who's actually running the country never mind any new rolling stock! Long live the IC225!!!

 

[LE Greys]

I hope we don't reach a point where we say "now what?"

Without IEP, I can see 91s continuing to run well into the thirties. The ECML could easily end up like the WCML, with electric locos going on and on because there is nothing to replace them. Not that they need it, of course. I've occasionally considered cut-down Eurostars as a cascade (they'll be replaced one day) but they are only a few years younger than the 91s, and apparently don't fit accross the Tyne Bridge anyway, although they go to Leeds perfectly well.

There probably are options. I would go for something similar to a shrunken version of the AGV as the ultimate solution, or perhaps a bulk order of 395s for the West Riding services. If it's possible to make a tilting 395, then there is an option to accelerate services to Scotland. I would much prefer something home-grown, but I'm not sure where it will come from.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it actually hinged on the recent Elections and who came (or retained) power...and I'm still a bit confused to who's actually running the country never mind any new rolling stock!

You and most of the country mate though its safe to say Labour and Brown are gone for now at least.

Long live the IC225!!!

Indeed!

 

[LE Greys]

Long live the IC225!!!

Hear! Hear!

 

[jon0844]

Why not use the 395s now? SET has a load unused at the moment.

 

[GNER 373]

I hope we don't reach a point where we say "now what?"

Without IEP, I can see 91s continuing to run well into the thirties. The ECML could easily end up like the WCML, with electric locos going on and on because there is nothing to replace them. Not that they need it, of course. I've occasionally considered cut-down Eurostars as a cascade (they'll be replaced one day) but they are only a few years younger than the 91s, and apparently don't fit accross the Tyne Bridge anyway, although they go to Leeds perfectly well.

There probably are options. I would go for something similar to a shrunken version of the AGV as the ultimate solution, or perhaps a bulk order of 395s for the West Riding services. If it's possible to make a tilting 395, then there is an option to accelerate services to Scotland. I would much prefer something home-grown, but I'm not sure where it will come from.

I'd love to see the 'Nollies' Eurostars back on the ECML (hence my Avatar and name) and especially up to Newcastle which is the nearest station to me! Platforms 3 & 4 are probably long enough to accomodate one of these sets.

As for the Tyne Bridge it definately wouldn't fit as it's only a Road bridge